View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #17841

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    All I know is after EW, Sylvan Library is OP. Needs banned!

  2. #17842
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Pretty crazy that the top 3 decks at EW didn't run basic lands, and there was only one deck in the top 8 that ran any basics at all.

    Not interested in seeing bans, but that's pretty nuts.

  3. #17843

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Someone accidently set off PSully on the Banning of DRS.

    https://go.twitch.tv/videos/184065868?t=22h42m10s

    He's amazing, still.
    Last edited by twndomn; 10-23-2017 at 02:36 AM.

  4. #17844

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    ETERNAL WEEKEND

    Legacy Top 8:

    6/8 decks had 4x DRS
    5/8 decks had 4x Delver
    4/8 decks had 4x Probe
    5/8 decks played Hymn/Therapy + FoW
    5/8 decks played Daze + FoW
    6/8 decks played Wasteland

    Do we have a problem with actual diversity atm?
    This one particular format does not showcase the variety of Legacy very well.

    But weren't you just complaining about small-sample-size anecdotes being pushed to obscure the data? 5/8 Delver decks is the exception, not the norm.
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  5. #17845

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Decks with both Brainstorm and Deathrite do well. Decks with just Brainstorm but no Deathrite also do well. Decks with Deathrite but no Brainstorm? Not so well aside from some exceptions like Elves, but they mostly care about it's elf tag, if it was a human shaman they probably wouldn't even play it. Deathrite Shaman isn't the problem with blue decks being good and if it was banned they'd still be the best thing to do and we'd just be going onto topics like "ban delver of secrets, best creature in legacy, look 5/8 delver in this top8."

  6. #17846
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by lavafrogg View Post
    Isn’t it just cantrips+anything at this point?

    The cantrip shell has been proven to be the “best” thing you can be playing in legacy and has been for some time now. SDT was the correct ban because it made the cantrip shell oppressive to the point of not being fun; mostly the counterbalance interaction was invalidating complete sections of the format.

    They just need to print a few more “anti cantrip” and “anti blue” cards that do not fit in a blue shell and are costed aggressively enough to see play.

    I am sure that there are enough threads around the internet that are filled with hypothetical threads on what cards could see print. I personally think that lowering the power of the blue “shell” would be better than raising the power of other decks.

    On another note... we need a better sideboard card to hate on blue/cantrips. There is nothing anyone can do to hate against a cantrip deck sans Choke. Pretty much every other archetype has cards that can be played in a sideboard to shut it down and ever since blue decks lost threshold creatures, they have pretty much never had to worry about the opposing sideboard.
    Do you need another Chalice of the Void? Trinisphere and Amethist are not enough?

  7. #17847
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    All this talk about banning blue cards, but there was an Eldrazi deck in top8 as well. There is a clear racist bias against blue mages and that's the big issue in this format that doesn't get talked anywhere enough.

  8. #17848
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Why not mention the cantrips as well?

    7/8 decks had 4x Brainstorm
    6/8 decks had 4x Ponder (7/8 if you count 3+ Ponder)
    Because i refuse to beat a dead horse, also:

    Quote Originally Posted by lavafrogg View Post
    Isn’t it just cantrips+anything at this point?
    It was for like a decade already, but the new development looks like that the decks build around BS+Ponder+Fetches are streamlining too. Where are all the blue combo and control decks suddenly? All mauled by DRS and discard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    This one particular format does not showcase the variety of Legacy very well.

    But weren't you just complaining about small-sample-size anecdotes being pushed to obscure the data? 5/8 Delver decks is the exception, not the norm.
    Of course this is just an anecdote, yet not one too far off the current metagame data

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascalyote View Post
    Decks with just Brainstorm but no Deathrite also do well.
    Is that so?
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  9. #17849

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post


    Is that so?
    Show/Tell and Miracles etc are performing much better than Jund and Maverick etc :^)

  10. #17850
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    All this talk about banning blue cards, but there was an Eldrazi deck in top8 as well. There is a clear racist bias against blue mages and that's the big issue in this format that doesn't get talked anywhere enough.
    Racist? So blue is 'persecuted' and every other color is 'priveledged'?

    Insert Willy Wonka sarcasm meme.

  11. #17851
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Can't we all just agree that Chalice is obviously the real issue here and needs to be banned immediately?

    I wonder if anything will change in January. If something is going to happen, that's the date. It has to be to give run up to the Pro Tour that will contain Legacy. Still can't believe I am writing those words and not in jest.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
    Do you need another Chalice of the Void? Trinisphere and Amethist are not enough?
    There's something to be said about the significant deckbuilding constraints that come with cantrip hate not named Leovold, but we've been over this before.

    Chalice and Thorn require a specific manabase and curve
    Thalia, Chains, and Spirit of the Labyrinth sabotage your own filtering
    Choke and Blood Moon cost three god damn mana and need to be slammed ASAP to do anything
    Really it's just easier and more efficient to load up on 1cmc blue cards yourself. It's an odd case where available hate is just worse that the cards they "beat."

  13. #17853
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Thalia, Chains, and Spirit of the Labyrinth sabotage your own filtering
    But that's the point!

    You can't try and hate on cantrips without making it symmetrical or else 4x Brainstorm decks become 4x Brainstorm & 4x whatever card you're thinking of.
    That's the problem with Leo, people play him and the number of Brainstorms hasn't gone down. So what are you solving?
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  14. #17854
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If a solution is indeed necessary to punish greedy manabases with RainbowXerox.dec, I don't think banning cards is the right one. I'd vote for some good old fashioned efficient land destruction. Wizards has treaded on eggshells for too long with land destruction.

    #MakeLDGreatAgain

    But I also don't think a solution is necessary at this point. Let the damned format evolve. If something oppressive emerges, then act.

  15. #17855
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    But that's the point!

    You can't try and hate on cantrips without making it symmetrical or else 4x Brainstorm decks become 4x Brainstorm & 4x whatever card you're thinking of.
    That's the problem with Leo, people play him and the number of Brainstorms hasn't gone down. So what are you solving?
    Jup. What WotC needs to evade is printing hate which goes along Brainstorm/Ponder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  16. #17856
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Or stop printing pushed cards like DRS, Mentor, Griselbrand, Cruise/Dig etc. Cantrips are only as good as the cards they find, if threats are less efficient then turbo xerox is easier to punish. Probably a bit late for that though, the last few years have squeezed out some gems.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  17. #17857
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Or stop printing pushed cards like DRS, Mentor, Griselbrand, Cruise/Dig etc. Cantrips are only as good as the cards they find, if threats are less efficient then turbo xerox is easier to punish. Probably a bit late for that though, the last few years have squeezed out some gems.
    I agree with this, but it gets to the question of what is the acceptable power level for such a deck, and how many bans are you willing to stomach to preserve it. See Workshop in Vintage.

    Here are the cards that I think need to go in order to ratchet down Xerox to the level I think people envision:

    Leovold
    Baleful Strix
    Gurmag Angler
    True-Name Nemesis
    Snapcaster Mage
    Deathrite Shaman
    Griselbrand
    Terminus
    Delver of Secrets
    Gitaxian Probe
    (Possibly) Mentor/Pyromancer

    Is that OK? I mean, I would be excited to try out this format. But that's a lot to swallow. You would definitely incentivize playing non-blue fair decks again, and Stoneforge Mystic/Tarmogoyf would once again be the go-to off-color threats. Those cards have received some pretty big nerfs in K-Command and Fatal Push.

    This list may be one or two cards too many but the actual issue is so nebulous that it's hard to know where to stop. We don't want what? A good midrange deck? A good blue midrange deck? A good tempo deck? We just want Lackey/Mongoose to be good again? How good is too good?

  18. #17858
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yeah, I got to the same conclusion after thinking about it a bit more. It's way too extreme to ever happen, but I think the format would be a lot more enjoyable without a lot of those cards.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  19. #17859
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The main ones in my opinion are Deathrite and Delver. Griselbrand as well I guess in terms of making a resolved Show and Tell GG 90% of the time. The other two one drops give the turbo xerox decks too efficient of threats for the low cost. Delver being a 1 mana 3/2 with evasion is nuts when thresh of old at least took a few turns to make their mongoose a 3/3. Deathrite simply because it's a 1 mana must answer threat that can be cast in a color that shouldn't have ever had a mana dork
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  20. #17860
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Can't we all just agree that Chalice is obviously the real issue here and needs to be banned immediately?

    I wonder if anything will change in January. If something is going to happen, that's the date. It has to be to give run up to the Pro Tour that will contain Legacy. Still can't believe I am writing those words and not in jest.
    Personally, I don't find Chalice to be that big of an issue. Realistically, everyone is responsible for their own deck's contents, and crying that someone locked out 60-80% of your deck with one card is akin to threatening the schoolyard bully. You're gonna get wrecked. There really isn't a whole lot you can bitch about if you don't take steps to ensure it doesn't become that way in the first place, or if it does materialize, that you have some way of dealing with it.

    If it were up to me, I'd ban seriously unfair things. Things that change the way the game is played for you, but not your opponent. Things like Omniscience. That shit is just plain dumb. Oh, I can play everything in my hand for free with no drawbacks.....yeah.....ban THAT garbage.

    Brainstorm, ehhhh.....the point could be argued that it's ban-worthy, but I don't have the energy to do so. Personally, I don't much care to register for a tournament only to watch 6-10 people sit across from me and cycle their decks faster than the toilet paper rolls at Chipotle. But I digress, Brainstorm by itself is not degenerate enough to ban.

    Deathrite Shaman.....the 1-drop planeswalker. THE preeminent form of maindeckable graveyard hate in Legacy. The manadork supreme. The alt-wincon everyone has. The single most splashable asshat since Goyf. And he's twice as splashable as Goyf is.

    Meh, not bannable. He isn't warping the format, he's not causing people to flip tables, and he hasn't sent Dredge running to the hills. Once a graveyard hate card gets printed that says:


    Flash, hexproof, indestructible
    Etb~Exile all graveyards
    As long as this is in play, blah blah blah blah

    You see how unlikely this shit is. They can't print enough graveyard hate because perfect hate will never be achieved.

    My vote is either Probe or Omni. Either one could go. Probe has what I call Mental Misstep Syndrome. It's popping up in decks it doesn't belong in, just because reasons. Like seeing Surgical on the board for Miracles, or Gut Shot for Death and Taxes. It perpetuates the lazy-ass "Oh, it's free, why not run it" mentality. And that's exactly what got Misstep banned.

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