View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #23101

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    People are lobbying heavily to get Daze banned, what do you think?

  2. #23102
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    People are lobbying heavily to get Daze banned, what do you think?
    Doubt wizards has the foresight to ban this card, and will continue to print 1-2cmc mistakes which heavily exploit Daze's abuse potential.
    So while Daze is the correct ban [first player advantage exploit], there is no world where Ragavan gets to stay legal but somehow DRS stays banned. Sequence should be Ragavan ban -> continue watching Daze.

  3. #23103
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Doubt wizards has the foresight to ban this card, and will continue to print 1-2cmc mistakes which heavily exploit Daze's abuse potential.
    This

    The Delver shell needs to eat some further nerfs than just banning the latest mistakes of WotC, just for it to go into bullshit mode right off the bat again with new prints. We've been in that cycle for many years now. Since cantrips are apparently holy cows, at least ban Daze as enabler. It would also make the dice roll fairer.

    I don't see a problem with combo, as blue decks could still run up to 8 Forces if they really want to.

  4. #23104

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It's not the Delver shell anymore, it's the cantrip tempo shell.

    Interesting question: if Daze is a problem, then could Wasteland be similarly problematic?

  5. #23105
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    It's not the Delver shell anymore, it's the cantrip tempo shell.

    Interesting question: if Daze is a problem, then could Wasteland be similarly problematic?
    Wasteland is an incredibly important control on the format becoming 5c soup. Without Wasteland you turn into standard and get turned into "Omnath needs to be banned" nonsense.

    Wasteland is important for controlling nonsense like Karakas, Field, Depths, Tabby, etc on top of those trying to play too many colors. In general the health of legacy is inversely proportional to the color blending (i.e. the more 2c you see, the more diverse the format, and diversity is a surrogate for health).

    Fetchlands are problematic enough without devolving back to lands, maverick, Loam, and SnowOko all being effectively the same deck with differing degrees of consistency. Just nonsense Oko pile subset [insert subarchetype].

  6. #23106
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    It's not the Delver shell anymore, it's the cantrip tempo shell.

    Interesting question: if Daze is a problem, then could Wasteland be similarly problematic?
    Apples and oranges.

    Wasteland doesn't do anything against basics. Wasteland is also played by a wide variety of decks, while Daze is pretty much exclusive to tempo shells and certain combo decks (e.g. Doomsday, Infect).

  7. #23107

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    People are lobbying heavily to get Daze banned, what do you think?
    It's an interesting approach to tackle the cantrip tempo shell but I'm not sure if it's the right one.
    -1 land is a pretty huge down side and only works because you have so many undercosted threats and free mana from monke.

    At this point, I would be interested to see what happens if Mental Misstep was legal again.
    Sure, it would be a huge shit show, but it is already.

    However, I still think the fetch lands should go but that probably would be a different format because they are "pillars" or something.
    Maybe Legacy is just too fucked to save it.

  8. #23108

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Apples and oranges.

    Wasteland doesn't do anything against basics. Wasteland is also played by a wide variety of decks, while Daze is pretty much exclusive to tempo shells and certain combo decks (e.g. Doomsday, Infect).
    I bet a Wasteland variant that couldn't hit dual lands would be a massive improvement for Legacy if Daze is indeed a problem. (Whether or not this card would be printed is a different question.)

  9. #23109
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    I bet a Wasteland variant that couldn't hit dual lands would be a massive improvement for Legacy if Daze is indeed a problem. (Whether or not this card would be printed is a different question.)
    Mmmm no. You're skipping ahead here; if Daze is banned, Wasteland has a much higher cost to activate. The safer you make duals, the faster the format devolves into 4c soup.

  10. #23110

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So, the two top dogs (UR and sagavan) both play at least 14 cards from MH2 in a format allowing to play anything released since 1994 and people do think that daze is the broken card?
    Also, sagavan is arguably the better deck and could switch to a control shell by removing daze in a second while still smashing with both saga and ragavan which are broken cards

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Doubt wizards has the foresight to ban this card, and will continue to print 1-2cmc mistakes which heavily exploit Daze's abuse potential.
    So while Daze is the correct ban [first player advantage exploit], there is no world where Ragavan gets to stay legal but somehow DRS stays banned. Sequence should be Ragavan ban -> continue watching Daze.
    Could you tell me more about this exploit?
    How can i choose to go first in order to make daze better?
    And i would argue that control is hopeless regardless of daze if wizard aims to print more and more one drops that good


    Anyway, the thing about goodstuff.blue always being a top dog is not really about the shell being so incredibly over the top or whatever, is just that is much more likely for a good card being printed for a shell that just requires efficient cards in general, while other decks need way more specific stuff (example, a good excuse to start running 4x terminus again is much harder to find than a blue delve powerhouse that does whatever but wins the game if unchecked).

    I mean, people were 99% sold on "ban delver to save the format" and delver itself became subpar because MH2 is just busted.

    How can one argue that a one drop that must be stopped instantly (at any stage of the game) or its gg is not the problem but a card that does nothing after turn 3 and does nothing if you can develop mana and does nothing if you go second is the culprit?
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  11. #23111
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @Noctalor this is a well-established problem with Daze; undercosted cards can only be allowed a certain power level beyond which Daze becomes bullcrap. The power creep going on is only going to continue and become increasingly egregious.

    In terms of first player advantage exploits, we've seen a number of them. The classic example is Grixis Delver's turn 0 Probe/Sea/Therapy. A highly uninteractive opener [life total decrease is not a real currency for the opponent at this point in game] which absolutely destroys the entire idea of the second player's compensation mechanism when they were unlucky enough to open a hand with any duplicates. Another example was Usea/DRS -> almost no sequence of cards which can prevent them from spamming Hymn the next turn (and re-spamming it with Snapcaster). Again completely destroying the second player's primary compensation mechanism [supposedly an extra card].

    Until we introduce a rule that says "if Daze in deck, you can never go first" the first-player advantage exploit will always be noticed. "Sometimes they lose the flip" is not a valid argument.

    Urza's Saga is not the problem. Murktide [a barely power-crept Goyf] is not the problem. DRC is not the problem. Ragavan will however get itself banned [or DRS unbanned, which won't happen], regardless of whether or not Daze finally gets axed.

    The ban Delver of Secrets camp, and the ban Griselbrand camp for that matter, has always been a joke of a position. The only endpoint people with this viewpoint have is to ban a card every time something is subjectively "too good" comes along in that slot.

    ^A great examples of foolish banning is banning SDT instead of the actual problem: Counterbalance. Guess what happened immediately after....that's right, they printed another 1-drop artifact which draws cards without going to the GY (but at least this time they hit Counterbalance 2.0, aka Oko). Guess what they're going to keep printing...1-drop artifacts which draw cards without going to the GY.

    You should see the pattern here. You can set your watch by noticing that every time a 1-drop artifact which meets those requirements is printed, we will have to ban something. But here's the thing...those trinkets are going to keep getting printed - just like pushed creatures that fit into Delver shells will. At some point you have to ban the actual problem; in the case of over-crept creatures that means Daze.

  12. #23112

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I am arguing that daze is not a problem at all, a card being good does not have to be a problem, most legacy cards are good actually.

    daze is too good if:
    - you go first
    - you have a treath that ends the game if unchecked
    - you have daze in your opener
    - your opponent can't deploy fast mana

    Now, the coin toss is relevant, you have no power to ensure you go first (besides losing games), so daze is already not "too good" half the times.

    Secondly, in order for daze to be good you must put pressure early, it is 100% clear that the problem is ragavan because ANY opener with land + daze + any legacy one drop besides ragavan can be managed, the problem with ragavan (and DRS) is that usually tempo one drops at best put pressure on your life total, something that you can afford to lose, while the two one drop powerhouses grant mana (and possibly card) advantage, something that snowballs the game.

    Also, DRS and Ragavan are (very) bad by desing because is just stupid for a card so good early to keep being relevant at any stage of the game, daze on the other hand is literally useless once (not even that many) turns have passed.

    The "first player advantage exploit" means very little, simply going first is better, by quite a lot, and it wont change, any competitive deck has "first player advantage", combo can kill you turn 1, tempo can put leverage on daze, stompy can play turn 1 cotv and control gets a better chance at preventing those.

    Urza's Saga is not the problem.
    Urza saga is actually a busted card that provides an uncounterable 3x1 unless you have exactly wasteland on the spot, is by far the strongest midrange play you can make even in a deck which has no support for it (which in fact became the strongest UWR shell atm and midgrange/control shell in general)

    Murktide [a barely power-crept Goyf]
    Murktide hitting once is game over 99% of the times, it flies and it is blue, last time a card was so ridicolous to be played in 4 copies despite delve it literally was ancestral recall, "barely power crept goyf"...

    DRC is not the problem
    Yeah, it is fine, very good but fine

    or DRS unbanned, which won't happen
    Just a remainder, besides ancestral recall and black lotus, DRS is the best card in the best vintage deck, so yes, it wont happen

    ^A great examples of foolish banning is banning SDT instead of the actual problem: Counterbalance.
    This statement cannot be defended even trying, it shows and absolute lack of understading about SDT miracles, i dont want to be rude but just to clarify, SDT miracles would probably still be a tier 1 despite this MH2 bullcrap, while counterbalance UWR is now a joke of a deck

    SDT was a good ban and miracle was tier0 because of it, SDT pushed both CB and Terminus to god tier cards, and both of them are ok cards now without top, also, astrolabe has literally nothing to do with SDT and it is a million time weaker despite both being banned, labe has not pushed a deck to be tier0 for 5 years, snowko was indeed good/very good but not 100% unbeatable (as miracle surely was)

    You should see the pattern here. You can set your watch by noticing that every time a 1-drop artifact which meets those requirements is printed
    Really, there is no pattern besides: whenever you print a one drop which is too good, you have to ban it, which is the same with ragavan


    Btw, my point is that they should ban ragavan and not print ragavan level 1 drops, banning daze wont change the fact that if you print more one drops that instantly end the game spamming them will always be the best strategy, the problem with thos cards are that you can at best trade even in resources and mana, and at worst lose to a 1 drop by turn 2.
    Also, just to clarify, in my humble MTG career i've played with success any deck, but refused to play delver because i find it boring as hell, but i would still let them have fun with daze
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  13. #23113

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Mmmm no. You're skipping ahead here; if Daze is banned, Wasteland has a much higher cost to activate. The safer you make duals, the faster the format devolves into 4c soup.
    I fully expect Wizards to print some type of indestructible fetchable dual eventually, and we'll see how much play those see.

    The other issue is that banning Daze by itself is probably not enough; given the cantrips are sacred and that Wasteland is likely to be seen as a "format pillar", that probably leads to Expressive Iteration being the second ban. Pauper actually went through something similar when they printed Foil, because it and Gush helped make Dimir Delver the premium option that basically topped out at 2 mana, and that led to Daze and Gush being banned.

  14. #23114
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    You cannot ban power creep, nor can you ban a design space. Once the pattern is there, the pattern will repeat over and over. We have seen this with SDT into Astrolabe, Wrenn into Oko, DRS into Dreadhorde into Ragavan. Banning these one at a time doesn't work b/c they keep printing them.

    At some point you have to say "we know wotc can't help but print power-crept nonsense, and we know that Daze usually inflames the situation...so at some point we need to save ourselves 10, 20, whatever amount of bans and just hit freaking Daze."

    So here's the question I always ask to those who want to never ban the actual problem: how many random bans do you need to see on the altar of Daze before you say "enough is enough, let's ban the one card causing the problem."

    Edit: and mind you, this is a format already spamming bans to keep Fetchlands in some sort of check, b/c they refuse to reprint duals and pull the Fetch ban.

  15. #23115

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Well, firstly,, we never saw power creep this bad.
    The only time a tier deck got so much in a single set was eldrazi, it's the first time we get 16/20 cards playable in the tier1 at once.
    If they follow this logic, daze wont change much, the format will suck regardless.

    Also, most of the bans have absolutely nothing to do with daze, the cards are just way over the top, and you can see that because the same cards are that good to be top dogs in vintage aswell.
    My point is that
    how many random bans do you need to see on the altar of Daze before you say "enough is enough, let's ban the one card causing the problem."
    I would like to see banned every busted card and keep daze, playing good tempo cards will always be strong and daze is just a good tempo card, the problem with the format is that you have absolutely no reason to play control because jamming busted early game drops will always be the dominant strategy.

    Also, if they kept DRS, Dreadhorde and such and banned daze, you would be 100% forced into a single 4c deck that would dominate the format, and people would still rightfully ask for bans.


    What do you expect to happen if they ban daze?
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  16. #23116
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    On power creep, it's generally fine. Going back to MH1 you really only are dealing with Wrenn, Oko, Zirda, Echo [common endpoint for two bad actors: LED and Tomb], Breach, and Ragavan as cards that have or will get themselves banned. The rest of the stuff (Lurrus, DHA, Uro, Saga, Murktide, Veil, Ending, Plague Engi, Muxus, Allosaurus, Kaldra, Klothys, Chart a Course 2.0 ~ Iteration, Astrolabe, Thassa, FoN, FoV, pitch-Elementals, Ice-Fang, Veil, spell-Lands, etc) falls more on the spectrum of funny mistakes for the format which is the home of mistakes. Among the most astonishing things is the printing of Vista, which showed a complete lack of understanding of how unhealthy Fetchlands are.

    If you feel like legacy is changing too fast, there's a pretty high chance that you're playing a deck without a strategy; at a baseline you're probably running around chasing the next 1-card combo, for your deck of mono-1-card combos. The other name for this type of construction is midrange, and it is completely powerless to do anything other than chase creep as there is nothing in their deck to fall back on when things change. This is not the crowd you want to balance the game for; this strategy can't adapt to change, it can only adopt it (can't beat em, join em style).

    In terms of "stop printing cards like these wotc" sentiment, nobody disagrees...but wotc isn't going to stop. People that say this have no solution to power-creeping other than apparently endless bans. Since we just had a D&D set, this viewpoint is like suggesting we keep cutting off the heads of a hydra even though you know 2 new heads will pop up every time after you do that. At some point you need to look at how these new cards work, and point bans at the pathways they use to hijack the format - for most of them it's the card Daze.

    Ban Daze and people have to bleed out on their own FoWs to protect their mistake of a queen. Setting them back a land isn't a valuable currency vs this many 1-drops. The way this sequence works out is that if the early interaction spell dies to Daze, they run out of interaction down the stretch and die to Murktide...but it's not like there is any other option when cards like Ragavan get printed. Even if we banned Daze, Ragavan still needs to be banned due to excessively poor design. While waiting for that Ragavan ban to finally arrive, a format without Daze would be better able to meaningfully adapt. It's much easier to have a real game of magic when the cost of defending the Ragavan exploit is -2 hand size -> this allows the game to progress into the "I hope your stupid little monkey is able to deal with these 2 and 3 drops coming down on curve" phase.

  17. #23117

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    ...
    In terms of "stop printing cards like these wotc" sentiment, nobody disagrees...but wotc isn't going to stop....
    They cannot, they have to keep printing loads of stuff, some of it pretty preposterous (to generate 'hype' = generating sales). This 'forever war' style continuous release schedule is here to stay, so the 'over the top' cards will inevitably happen with consequent bans. As long as they reap money from old formats, I can see them being reluctant to ban those symbolic old cards, otherwise, we would soon reach a stage where all formats were pretty much the same. The price to keep those old cards around is to ban the new stuff, but that's ok, since banning happens after sales were made. It's sound commercial policy, kudos to their capitalist mindset.

  18. #23118

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    On power creep, it's generally fine. Going back to MH1 you really only are dealing with Wrenn, Oko, Zirda, Echo [common endpoint for two bad actors: LED and Tomb], Breach, and Ragavan as cards that have or will get themselves banned. The rest of the stuff (Lurrus, DHA, Uro, Saga, Murktide, Veil, Ending, Plague Engi, Muxus, Allosaurus, Kaldra, Klothys, Chart a Course 2.0 ~ Iteration, Astrolabe, Thassa, FoN, FoV, pitch-Elementals, Ice-Fang, Veil, spell-Lands, etc) falls more on the spectrum of funny mistakes for the format which is the home of mistakes. Among the most astonishing things is the printing of Vista, which showed a complete lack of understanding of how unhealthy Fetchlands are.
    In fact i am asking for a ban for the cards that do deserve one, as ragavan does.
    Also, out of all of this you rant about vista?
    Tricolor with basics is currently unplayable because tempo is too important and fetching a basic means basicly being in color screw or falling out on tempo, Vista is ok at best and it's good to add an option for bicolor decks.

    If you feel like legacy is changing too fast, there's a pretty high chance that you're playing a deck without a strategy; at a baseline you're probably running around chasing the next 1-card combo, for your deck of mono-1-card combos. The other name for this type of construction is midrange
    This is an (incomplete) list of my tops, there is a pretty high chance you are wrong so dont go that route.
    Also, fun fact, over the years just spamming good cards became much better, because cards now have much more proactive power on their own.

    In terms of "stop printing cards like these wotc" sentiment, nobody disagrees...but wotc isn't going to stop. People that say this have no solution to power-creeping other than apparently endless bans. Since we just had a D&D set, this viewpoint is like suggesting we keep cutting off the heads of a hydra even though you know 2 new heads will pop up every time after you do that. At some point you need to look at how these new cards work, and point bans at the pathways they use to hijack the format - for most of them it's the card Daze.
    The idea is that it's ok if new good gards are added, it's not ok if new broken ones are.
    As long as they ban those it's (kinda) fine, also again, banning daze wont do anything if they set the baseline power level to ragavan standards

    Ban Daze and people have to bleed out on their own FoWs to protect their mistake of a queen. Setting them back a land isn't a valuable currency vs this many 1-drops.
    It would mostly not happen, you just get to trade 1x1 in mana and cards if you have the removal spell, is not like delver/sagavan can't win w/o daze in their opener, by this logic you are forced to go turn 1 removal, and they can now play land and a second treath (they can now defend with pierce instead of daze maybe)
    It would slightly lower their winrate but i would not change how strong MH2 offenders are

    The way this sequence works out is that if the early interaction spell dies to Daze, they run out of interaction down the stretch and die to Murktide...but it's not like there is any other option when cards like Ragavan get printed. Even if we banned Daze, Ragavan still needs to be banned due to excessively poor design.
    Indeed, so you actually do agree that ragavan ban has nothing to do with daze, and that it's ban is ok despite the power creep happening

    While waiting for that Ragavan ban to finally arrive, a format without Daze would be better able to meaningfully adapt. It's much easier to have a real game of magic when the cost of defending the Ragavan exploit is -2 hand size -> this allows the game to progress into the "I hope your stupid little monkey is able to deal with these 2 and 3 drops coming down on curve" phase.
    2/3 drop on curve is legacy umplayable regardless of getting dazed, combo truly is fine just smashing those decks to the ground, what midrange/control deck are you proposing?
    Also, the meta has already adapted, you have to play ragavan, so the midrange/control deck just bacame sagavan, you have no interest in playing 2/3 drops whan saga provides 3 of them on its own and ragavan is mostly better than them.
    And btw, the meta is shaped around ragavan, and there are plenty of decks able to deal with it decently, maybe you dont like them but they do exist, it's just unfair because the card is so busted that by itself it makes certain decks unplayable, not because you get your plow dazed

    Again, what midrange deck are you proposing?
    BUG literally loses to Murktide unless it plays his own (and no pyroblast is there)
    UWR in any non sagavan shell is just a bad deck atm, with a daze ban this would still hold
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  19. #23119

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    The only time a tier deck got so much in a single set was eldrazi, it's the first time we get 16/20 cards playable in the tier1 at once.
    I think you can safely assume that is going to be the norm for MH moving forward.

    "We want UR tempo to be a thing in Modern"

    "OK. Print it up."

    They are highly likely to follow this pattern with other archetypes that are unplayable in Modern and its going to continue to break Legacy when it happens.

  20. #23120

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    I think you can safely assume that is going to be the norm for MH moving forward.

    "We want UR tempo to be a thing in Modern"

    "OK. Print it up."

    They are highly likely to follow this pattern with other archetypes that are unplayable in Modern and its going to continue to break Legacy when it happens.
    Yes, I can see that happening, and I think it's ok as long as they just don't overdo it.

    And given that this is likely to happen, i would at least try to save the few cards that are going to keep legacy from being modern with duals
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

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