View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #23121

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    I think you can safely assume that is going to be the norm for MH moving forward.

    "We want UR tempo to be a thing in Modern"

    "OK. Print it up."

    They are highly likely to follow this pattern with other archetypes that are unplayable in Modern and its going to continue to break Legacy when it happens.
    Wasn't this the stated goal in mh1 to make existing archetypes better?
    Before even mh2 inserted archetypes outright.

  2. #23122

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Yes, I can see that happening, and I think it's ok as long as they just don't overdo it.

    And given that this is likely to happen, i would at least try to save the few cards that are going to keep legacy from being modern with duals
    What would those cards be?

  3. #23123
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    What would those cards be?
    Force of Will
    Brainstorm
    Ponder
    Wasteland
    Ancient Tomb
    City of Traitors
    Dark Ritual
    Lion's Eye Diamond
    Gaea's Cradle
    Dark Depths
    Crop Rotation
    Exploration
    Entomb
    Show and Tell
    Berserk
    Goblin Lackey

    ...?

    These old cards allow explosive archetypes not possible in Modern and tools to police them faster than Modern can.

    The actual threats keep changing with power-creeped new printings but the engines/archetypes that absorb them stay roughly the same.

  4. #23124

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Force of Will
    Goblin Lackey

    ...?

    These old cards allow explosive archetypes not possible in Modern and tools to police them faster than Modern can.

    The actual threats keep changing with power-creeped new printings but the engines/archetypes that absorb them stay roughly the same.
    Yes, pretty much.

    I would say that legacy should keep:
    1) extremely good combo decks, so I would not ban fast mana and good enablers (for example, despite thinking that reanimator is a bit too obnoxious I would not ban anything, maybe one can argue if griselbrand is too good of a payoff)
    2) sol lands meaning stompy decks and ramp
    3) powerful interaction (force/daze/wasteland/REB) to mantain fair decks the "better ones", because the format would rapidly turn into a fiesta with no strong policy
    4) the cantrip shell, it's mostly needed for blue policy deck to operate and it is by far the most iconic legacy engine
    5) strong anti cantrip shell (which means keeping strong denial deck around, keep lands a top dog so protect exploration mox diamond and such and have wasteland + port to keep taxes around)

    In this scheme (which is the current one), delver (and daze) is actually important, often we don't realize how insanely strong are legacy combo decks, and they are core to the format and mostly able to smash almost anything, what they struggle to beat consistently is race paired with distruption, which delver provides.

    If you ban delver to the ground combos would easily become the top dogs, note that this is also what happened to modern for a very long time, with no deck able to pair race + "catch all" good interaction you can just play combo, and there are enough diversification between those decks to guarantee that you cant just build control and have a good mu against most of them just because with no meaningful race combo can beat basicly any board state
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  5. #23125
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    3) powerful interaction (force/daze/wasteland/REB) to mantain fair decks the "better ones", because the format would rapidly turn into a fiesta with no strong policy
    4) the cantrip shell, it's mostly needed for blue policy deck to operate and it is by far the most iconic legacy engine
    5) strong anti cantrip shell (which means keeping strong denial deck around, keep lands a top dog so protect exploration mox diamond and such and have wasteland + port to keep taxes around)

    In this scheme (which is the current one), delver (and daze) is actually important, often we don't realize how insanely strong are legacy combo decks, and they are core to the format and mostly able to smash almost anything, what they struggle to beat consistently is race paired with distruption, which delver provides.

    If you ban delver to the ground combos would easily become the top dogs, note that this is also what happened to modern for a very long time, with no deck able to pair race + "catch all" good interaction you can just play combo, and there are enough diversification between those decks to guarantee that you cant just build control and have a good mu against most of them just because with no meaningful race combo can beat basicly any board state
    Some points:

    1. The powerful interaction suit, as you call it, is run alongside the extremely efficient cantrip suit. And that has proven to be problematic time and time again, otherwise we wouldn't have had so many bans that slot wonderfully into the Delver shells in the last few years - and Delver decks played a big part in their respective bans.

    2. Strong anti-cantrip shells don't really exist. Sure, some can hurt them with Chalice, but general unwillingness to print good anti-cantrip cards outside one-sided blue ones (which is fucking stupid to begin with) makes that point moot.

    3. I'm tired of the argument that weakening Delver would result in the Combo boogieman. Newsflash, Delver IS the format's boogieman and has been so for many years, even with the color combinations changing from time to time, depending on what bullshit WotC has printed at that time.

  6. #23126

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Some points:

    1. The powerful interaction suit, as you call it, is run alongside the extremely efficient cantrip suit. And that has proven to be problematic time and time again, otherwise we wouldn't have had so many bans that slot wonderfully into the Delver shells in the last few years - and Delver decks played a big part in their respective bans.

    2. Strong anti-cantrip shells don't really exist. Sure, some can hurt them with Chalice, but general unwillingness to print good anti-cantrip cards outside one-sided blue ones (which is fucking stupid to begin with) makes that point moot.

    3. I'm tired of the argument that weakening Delver would result in the Combo boogieman. Newsflash, Delver IS the format's boogieman and has been so for many years, even with the color combinations changing from time to time, depending on what bullshit WotC has printed at that time.
    The cards that got banned because of delver are DRS and Arcanist, and maybe gitaxian probe/wrenn, all of them have been (or currently are) top dogs in Vintage, the cards were pretty damn good by themselves, and tempo is the best shell to run good cards in, that's all.
    As I said, is much more likely for a random good card to be good in tempo, because all you are looking for is cards above average for their mana cost, this would hold regardless of bans, unless you ban all cantrips or all countermagic.
    Also, it is not problematic at all, cantrips + countermagic being good literally is Legacy, you dont have to play that way but you can always expect the meta to be shaped around that


    As i said, you need cantrips alongside interaction in order to be impactful on the meta, if you get rid of all cantrips playing answers becomes quite bad, being the one spamming bombs would be much better.

    Taxes is currently one of the best legacy deck, and has been for a while (not counting oko warping the format by dogshit desing making creatures useless), it runs a quite decent anti cantrip shell running up to 20 cards that punish you by running cantrips, in general heavy mana denial plus explosive openeners do punish cantripping quite hard, and the best non-combo/non-blue deck fight on that axis, both taxes and lands are well suited to fight cantrips and pray on the fair blue side of the format.
    There are few straight ant cantrip cards (but for example taxes is running 4x spirit of the labyrint), but there are plenty of ways to fight a cantrip deck, explosive openers are problematic for a cantrip deck because cantrips are a tempo loss, sphere effects double the tempo loss and mana denial makes losing tempo more impactful for the blue player.

    If all you have to play against are blue decks, you can just play an anti blue deck and win every game, they are not unbeatable at all
    Also, thanks to elvish reclaimer you can now play a non blue deck with enough consistency to be on the same level as cantrip decks (ofc you have to run a land-centric deck)

    And yes, delves has always been one of the best decks, and that's fine, but it's untrue that it has dominated legacy all of those years, it is always one of the best decks, but not always "the" best deck.
    Maybe it doesnt have to be that way, but delver being one of the best decks is much more tolerable to losing to combo w/o a chance (as an example im on doomsday atm and i literally have >80% winrate against any non delver/non gy deck while tuning my entire sideboard exactly for the UR delver MU)
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  7. #23127
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    In this scheme (which is the current one), delver (and daze) is actually important, often we don't realize how insanely strong are legacy combo decks, and they are core to the format and mostly able to smash almost anything, what they struggle to beat consistently is race paired with distruption, which delver provides.
    I largely agree.

    When I've introduced Modern, Standard or Casual players to Legacy it wasn't Delver that turned them away. It was plays like Turn 1 Thassa's Oracle, Turn 1 Goblin Charbelcher, Turn 2 Tendrils of Agony, or Turn 2 Grindstone. Legacy combo is insanely strong. These plays leave the average non-Eternal player feeling like they didn't get to play a normal game of magic. They played 1 land and suddenly the game is over, usually by some alternate win condition that feels like a video game cheat code. Legacy combo invalidates most brews and archetypes that exist in other formats. To compete you either need to be as explosive or pack a lot of disruption.

    Legacy veterans are so used to explosive combo as a natural part of the ecosystem that we can forget how these decks feel to non-Eternal players. We grief about the Xerox decks we keep facing over and over again, sick of the repetitive games playing against Delver and sick of seeing FoW, Brainstorm and Ponder in 60% of Top8s. But part of the reason for that is if the Xerox presence drops too low in a meta, combo thrashes the event.

    FoW+Brainstorm is a necessary evil and makes Legacy unique over other formats, and has been a defining feature of Legacy long before Delver of Secrets was printed.

    The outstanding question is if Daze is necessary for that disruption to function. I think it was in Legacy's early days. But since blue got extra disruption (Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Force of Negation), Daze is not essential to police combo. Now all it does is abuse the first turn advantage, which was already favored since the London Mulligan. Combo can be policed without proactive blue decks using Daze to get ahead of less proactive fair decks.

  8. #23128

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I largely agree.

    When I've introduced Modern, Standard or Casual players to Legacy it wasn't Delver that turned them away. It was plays like Turn 1 Thassa's Oracle, Turn 1 Goblin Charbelcher, Turn 2 Tendrils of Agony, or Turn 2 Grindstone. Legacy combo is insanely strong. These plays leave the average non-Eternal player feeling like they didn't get to play a normal game of magic. They played 1 land and suddenly the game is over, usually by some alternate win condition that feels like a video game cheat code. Legacy combo invalidates most brews and archetypes that exist in other formats. To compete you either need to be as explosive or pack a lot of disruption.

    Legacy veterans are so used to explosive combo as a natural part of the ecosystem that we can forget how these decks feel to non-Eternal players. We grief about the Xerox decks we keep facing over and over again, sick of the repetitive games playing against Delver and sick of seeing FoW, Brainstorm and Ponder in 60% of Top8s. But part of the reason for that is if the Xerox presence drops too low in a meta, combo thrashes the event.

    FoW+Brainstorm is a necessary evil and makes Legacy unique over other formats, and has been a defining feature of Legacy long before Delver of Secrets was printed.

    The outstanding question is if Daze is necessary for that disruption to function. I think it was in Legacy's early days. But since blue got extra disruption (Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Force of Negation), Daze is not essential to police combo. Now all it does is abuse the first turn advantage, which was already favored since the London Mulligan. Combo can be policed without proactive blue decks using Daze to get ahead of less proactive fair decks.
    While I largely agree, but I think the question is the wrong way around.
    Legacy could work without Daze, but does it need to?
    Does Daze warrant a ban instead of something else?
    Is banning Daze going to stop the monke train enough?
    I think monke and Saga should go, then we can think about banning Daze again.
    The sales argument also doesn't really apply here since Legacy is an irrelevant market share and both cards are still insanely good in Modern.

    BTW Daze is terrible at policing combo since a good combo player will always assume you have it and play around it.

  9. #23129

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    BTW Daze is terrible at policing combo since a good combo player will always assume you have it and play around it.
    Not to get too far into the weeds, but if what you say is true, then Daze is very good against combo. What you’re describing is a mana taxing effect that works even when you haven’t drawn a copy. Always playing around Daze is a substantial handicap.

  10. #23130

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Not to get too far into the weeds, but if what you say is true, then Daze is very good against combo. What you’re describing is a mana taxing effect that works even when you haven’t drawn a copy. Always playing around Daze is a substantial handicap.
    For most combo decks this isn't actually a huge handicap since you start with something like Dark Ritual or some other mana source.
    With correct sequencing and not being too greedy the effect is minimal.

    It's also just a slow down which you can play around by waiting a turn.
    It doesn't stop anything it only delays, so the combo player can sit it out unlike FoW or any hard counter.
    The most likely use case is Dazing the opening Duress/Thoughtseize to protect your FoW.
    Even if that is successful, you're down 3 cards and 1 land so if you don't have 1 mana threat it's still not a good position to be in.

  11. #23131

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Not to get too far into the weeds, but if what you say is true, then Daze is very good against combo. What you’re describing is a mana taxing effect that works even when you haven’t drawn a copy. Always playing around Daze is a substantial handicap.
    This, absolutely, as a proficient combo player, against tempo you ofter are asked if:

    1) you go off against a possible daze?
    2) you pass and disaster can happen

    daze, just by existing, nerfs combo, that's it
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  12. #23132

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    It's also just a slow down which you can play around by waiting a turn.
    But isn't it nice to have your opponents always wait a turn to kill you because you control an Island (or any untapped fetch land) and you *might* have Daze in hand? In that turn, you can Wasteland them, draw a burn spell, draw countermagic, deal combat damage, dig for hate cards... and you haven't even played the Daze yet. Maybe you haven't even drawn it yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    The most likely use case is Dazing the opening Duress/Thoughtseize to protect your FoW.
    But isn't that way, way better than not having Daze, letting the FoW get snagged, and losing next turn? That sounds like a night and day difference in your chances of victory.

    I guess I don't understand. TBH I have no experience with Daze vs combo... I'm always on the receiving end of the Dazes.

    Edit: And then there are the times I bend over backwards to play around Daze and they have TWO Dazes. And then there are the times I get really smart and play around TWO Dazes, and surprise, neither of those cards is Daze, they’re both Lightning Bolt and I’m dead. I think “good players always play around Daze” is too big an oversimplification ... maybe “good players always play around Daze in the optimal way, given the available information, but even that always comes at a cost, leaves much to chance, and can result in getting punished.”

  13. #23133

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    But isn't it nice to have your opponents always wait a turn to kill you because you control an Island (or any untapped fetch land) and you *might* have Daze in hand? In that turn, you can Wasteland them, draw a burn spell, draw countermagic, deal combat damage, dig for hate cards... and you haven't even played the Daze yet. Maybe you haven't even drawn it yet.
    I'm not saying it's a bad card, I'm saying it's not "keeping combo in check".
    Most points are mute in the sense that the outcome vs combo is always binary and besides/hate or counter they don't really care.
    Good job of landing a Delver if you're getting Tendrilled next turn.
    The difficult part of playing against combo as is much stopping them going of as it is actually winning yourself.
    If there's no chance that you'll instantly lose as combo player you can often "slow roll" it until you are confident enough/have enough redundancy to win.
    You basically need a T1 threat and then you need to be able to block their sequence every time.
    Ironically, this is what monke excels at independent of match up.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    But isn't that way, way better than not having Daze, letting the FoW get snagged, and losing next turn? That sounds like a night and day difference in your chances of victory.

    I guess I don't understand. TBH I have no experience with Daze vs combo... I'm always on the receiving end of the Dazes.
    The point here is that it's not really up to the Daze player to make the play but to the combo player to screw up.
    If you see an island you have to always assume that they have Force and/or Daze so you have to either play around them or make sure they don't have them.
    This is why Probe was busted and got banned.
    It's the basic skill test on the combo player's side.
    Daze is easier to play around since you can render it useless with correct sequencing most of the time.

  14. #23134
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I'm not saying it's a bad card, I'm saying it's not "keeping combo in check".
    Most points are mute in the sense that the outcome vs combo is always binary and besides/hate or counter they don't really care.
    Good job of landing a Delver if you're getting Tendrilled next turn.
    The difficult part of playing against combo as is much stopping them going of as it is actually winning yourself.
    If there's no chance that you'll instantly lose as combo player you can often "slow roll" it until you are confident enough/have enough redundancy to win.
    You basically need a T1 threat and then you need to be able to block their sequence every time.
    Ironically, this is what monke excels at independent of match up.
    I think what people are saying (and I agree) is that Daze+clock is good against combo.

    Some people cram Daze into midrange decks. Against such decks it's very easy to "slow roll" around Daze, giving opponent -1 hand size while you effortlessly win through Daze.

    But in a fast tempo deck like UR(g) Delver or UB Shadow, that Daze is powerful. Each turn you "slow roll" you're taking more damage and giving them tempo to cantrip into more disruption. Most combo is built to beat 1 FoW, but 2xFoW is tough unless you have a really good hand. Clock + (potential) Daze puts you in a position where you have to decide to either "slow roll" but then have to sculpt so you can win through even more pieces of disruption before that clock kills you, or you go off quickly before they find more disruption/kill you but risk walking into Daze. If you weren't facing that clock too, you'd have all the time in the world to play out extra mana sources and sculpt to beat double Force. If you were facing the clock but not Daze, you could just go off fast before they hit double Force or get your life too low. But with clock+Daze it creates tension that pressures you on both sides.

    That tension's amplified when your combo engine depends on life total (e.g. Reanimate, Ad Nauseam). If they play T1 Delver/DRC/Ragavan, sure you can slow roll around Daze, but each hit you take makes it harder for your engine to work. Do you pass the turn, hope to topdeck a mana source (and maybe miss), and drop even lower in life? Then consider that untapped Volcanic could represent both Daze + Lightning Bolt... If you take 1 more Delver/DRC hit, maybe that Ad Naus/Reanimate drops you below 4 life and you lose to Bolt. And the longer you wait, you even have to think about 2xBolt. But if you don't, maybe you walk into Daze. More tension.

    One thing I loved about brewing/testing combo engines that don't depend on life total (Breach, Zirda, Song of Creation/Echo) was that it's easier to ignore that tension. You can absorb more damage to play around Daze/Pierce and Bolt isn't going to ruin your day, buying approx 2 more turns to set up vs Delver.

    Daze is easier to play around since you can render it useless with correct sequencing most of the time.
    You can render the Daze useless but then lose to a lucky fast start (2x Delver/DRC/Shadow) or the 2nd FoW/Bolt they had time to find. Beating Daze and winning the game are not the same thing. That doesn't mean Daze is unbeatable or singlehandedly keeps combo in check, but giving the tempo player a free Time Walk has an effect on the game.

  15. #23135

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Edit: And then there are the times I bend over backwards to play around Daze and they have TWO Dazes. And then there are the times I get really smart and play around TWO Dazes, and surprise, neither of those cards is Daze, they’re both Lightning Bolt and I’m dead. I think “good players always play around Daze” is too big an oversimplification ... maybe “good players always play around Daze in the optimal way, given the available information, but even that always comes at a cost, leaves much to chance, and can result in getting punished.”
    Good players either play around Daze/Force/whatever or know the chances of their gamble.
    If you don't have the information (which is why storm plays discard) you have to hatch your bets.

    People struggle a lot with this concept but the best play might lose you the game and a winning play might be objectively bad.
    The best play is the statistically best play you can do based on your current information.
    Sometimes, the odds are not in your favor and you get shafted.
    People tend to over-emphasize on those since, due to negative bias, your brain remembers those more than the times you won.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I think what people are saying (and I agree) is that Daze+clock is good against combo.

    Some people cram Daze into midrange decks. Against such decks it's very easy to "slow roll" around Daze, giving opponent -1 hand size while you effortlessly win through Daze.

    But in a fast tempo deck like UR(g) Delver or UB Shadow, that Daze is powerful. Each turn you "slow roll" you're taking more damage and giving them tempo to cantrip into more disruption. Most combo is built to beat 1 FoW, but 2xFoW is tough unless you have a really good hand. Clock + (potential) Daze puts you in a position where you have to decide to either "slow roll" but then have to sculpt so you can win through even more pieces of disruption before that clock kills you, or you go off quickly before they find more disruption/kill you but risk walking into Daze. If you weren't facing that clock too, you'd have all the time in the world to play out extra mana sources and sculpt to beat double Force. If you were facing the clock but not Daze, you could just go off fast before they hit double Force or get your life too low. But with clock+Daze it creates tension that pressures you on both sides.

    That tension's amplified when your combo engine depends on life total (e.g. Reanimate, Ad Nauseam). If they play T1 Delver/DRC/Ragavan, sure you can slow roll around Daze, but each hit you take makes it harder for your engine to work. Do you pass the turn, hope to topdeck a mana source (and maybe miss), and drop even lower in life? Then consider that untapped Volcanic could represent both Daze + Lightning Bolt... If you take 1 more Delver/DRC hit, maybe that Ad Naus/Reanimate drops you below 4 life and you lose to Bolt. And the longer you wait, you even have to think about 2xBolt. But if you don't, maybe you walk into Daze. More tension.

    One thing I loved about brewing/testing combo engines that don't depend on life total (Breach, Zirda, Song of Creation/Echo) was that it's easier to ignore that tension. You can absorb more damage to play around Daze/Pierce and Bolt isn't going to ruin your day, buying approx 2 more turns to set up vs Delver.

    You can render the Daze useless but then lose to a lucky fast start (2x Delver/DRC/Shadow) or the 2nd FoW/Bolt they had time to find. Beating Daze and winning the game are not the same thing. That doesn't mean Daze is unbeatable or singlehandedly keeps combo in check, but giving the tempo player a free Time Walk has an effect on the game.
    As in my reply above, it's a risk reward calculation on the combo player's side.

    TBH I'm not entirely sure what we're even debating here anymore.
    I think we all agree that Daze is a good card but most seem to think it's not ban worthy.

    Unrelated:
    While I appreciated them finally starting to do something in Historic, Historic Brawl got nothing again.
    If they don't care about it, they should just drop another 5GB patch to remove it.
    Since the introduction of Brawl formats it also has become increasingly more obvious that having PWs as your commander is broken in general.
    However, currently Historic Brawl looks different because it's Golos + Decks that can actually win against it.
    Great fun combined with the awful attitudes of the people in the queues.

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