All B/R update speculation.

[Mr. Safety]

I also get excited whenever I see Merfolk placing. Was a list that top-8ed recently that ran a Scooter. I'd like to see that breaking out. Where else do you see Looter Scooter? I only really picture it in aggro decks. Maybe Affinity? Do you think it could be midrange viable?

Biggest thing holding it back is that it *isn't* fetch-able with Stoneforge Mystic. If it was I think it would see a definite amount of play. It's shown up in some Painter lists as a pseudo-replacement for Top, from what I've read.

DRS is really the only card on the chopping block, and I really hope it doesn't get banned.

[Lemnear]

If Brainstorm is to never be banned, at least entertain the idea of banning the next worst offender (so Ponder).

Every blue deck nowadays starts off w/ 4 Brainstorm & 4 Ponder

Cool. So we all play 4x Brainstorm, 4x Preordain. No biggy

[Echelon]

Cool. So we all play 4x Brainstorm, 4x Preordain. No biggy

Hey, if banning Brainstorm is off the table what can we do..? Lol

I'd ban both Brainstorm and Ponder, to be honest. Just to shake shit up.

[Lemnear]

Hey, if banning Brainstorm is off the table what can we do..? Lol

If there were just a set of cards, which act as enabler for DRS, Ponder, Brainstorm, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, SDT & Co ... one could ban those instead

;p

[Julian23]

I thought this belongs in here. It's some great insight and one of the rare public statements WotC makes regarding their B&R policy in Eternal formats:

Regarding Workshop and Brainstorm:



Also:

[Echelon]

If there were just a set of cards, which act as enabler for DRS, Ponder, Brainstorm, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, SDT & Co ... one could ban those instead

;p

Yeah, but I like those too. So don't touch the stuff that I like, ok..?

Fuck me, I'm a hypocrite dammit.

@Julian23: Seems to me like WotC is saying "We're not banning or unbanning a single thing for now". Called it!

[Crimhead]

Add in some lands and about 50% of every deck is pretty much set in stone before even a single choice is made. Am I the only one that finds that boring..?

Who really chooses their 75 one card at a time?

People typically chose an archetype. They want to play Stoneblade, or Storm, or Elves, or Eldrazi, or whatever. Once you've picked a deck, something like 90-100% of the main deck is set in stone. This is true whether you play cantrip or not, and it app!is to pretty much every format with an established tier of decks.

Truefax. This data set is only a one month period.

I was responding to another poster who wanted to compare our one month worth of data the the entire reign of SDT Miracles.

Wonder of Wonders, you are better off sleeving up Chalice of the Void than playing Deathrite Shaman without blue support.

And?

If we want to talk about banning a card, we should identify a problem and find a ban that solves it. If Grixis Delver is truly the problem, I think a DRS ban is more likely to send it reeling than a BS ban. It doesn't matter what DSR decks w/o BS are currently doing in the meta we are wanting to change. That's irrelevant.
What matters is how the main offender would adapt in a new meta; given the various banning options.

[Cartesian]

Every blue deck nowadays starts off w/ 4 Brainstorm & 4 Ponder and is very likely to run 4 FoW & 4 Daze as well. Add in some lands and about 50% of every deck is pretty much set in stone before even a single choice is made. Am I the only one that finds that boring..?

Fun police? How about fact police. Delver aggro runs Daze, other decks are highly unlikely to run Daze. Some blue based decks run fewer than 4 Ponder, some less than 4 FoW. Some run a full set of Preordain instead of Ponder. Some run all of these, and Probe. Some mono blue decks run no cantrips at all (e.g. Merfolk, Mono U Chalice/Painter). Since people generally like to not be a goldfish against Belcher if it can be avoided, most of them run 4 FoW.

But hey, of course most blue based decks will go for the consistency that only Brainstorm, Deathrite and friends can offer, and of course they are going to run the best cantrips available, in general. This is great, it is perhaps the greatest allure of Legacy. Consistency is good for the game. Consistency can be attacked, it is a fundamental, interesting problem how to effectively attack consistency without being an inconsistent pile of junk yourself. This is not boring, it is the opposite.

[Hanni]

If Leovold would have been printed with a GWB manacost instead of UGB, I wonder if we would still be having these conversations right now...

[kombatkiwi]

If Leovold would have been printed with a GWB manacost instead of UGB, I wonder if we would still be having these conversations right now...

strict upgrade, can't pyroblast it

[CptHaddock]

If Leovold would have been printed with a GWB manacost instead of UGB, I wonder if we would still be having these conversations right now...

Czech pile splashing white instead of red seems like a very difficult mana base change in this format.

[Crimhead]

Wonder of Wonders, you are better off sleeving up Chalice of the Void than playing Deathrite Shaman without blue support.

I think I see what you are saying. DRS decks w/o blue are not currently a problem, therefore they will continue to not be a problem with BS gone. I have 2 objections to this reasoning:

1. If you only hit BS, blue DRS decks will still have blue support and not suffer too much. Especially since other competing decks also take a hit.
2. If you a blue ban does hurt blue based DRS decks, we have a new meta where blueless DRS decks could likely thrive. For one, they will no longer be outcassed by the blue versions of the same strategy! surely this is the biggest thing keeping blueless midrange down (Jund didn't ever really die, it just added blue to be better optimised). Take away the blue goodies, and the deck reverts to an earlier version).

At the very least, you can bet your dual lands CotV would no longer outperform blue less DRS in a world w/o cantrips!

[Barook]

Hey, if banning Brainstorm is off the table what can we do..?

Take a dump before WotC's headquarter. They shit up the format, we shit up their entrance.

If they don't ban Brainstorm, at least tell them that we need better hate - one that
a) isn't multiple times more expensive than BS,
b) isn't sorcery speed &
c) isn't usable in Brainstorm decks (Mental Misstep failed here).

I just did, now do you parts.

As for DRS:
I don't think that DRS gets banned, simply because R&D believes that it keeps the format in check (which begs the question what kind of degeneracy it keeps in check - certainly not fast combo decks).

[Echelon]

I just did, now do you parts.

But I don't need to poop... Nor do I have the desire to cross the ocean before taking a dump

[Watersaw]

I was responding to another poster who wanted to compare our one month worth of data the the entire reign of SDT Miracles.

And?

If we want to talk about banning a card, we should identify a problem and find a ban that solves it. If Grixis Delver is truly the problem, I think a DRS ban is more likely to send it reeling than a BS ban. It doesn't matter what DSR decks w/o BS are currently doing in the meta we are wanting to change. That's irrelevant.
What matters is how the main offender would adapt in a new meta; given the various banning options.

I think I see what you are saying. DRS decks w/o blue are not currently a problem, therefore they will continue to not be a problem with BS gone. I have 2 objections to this reasoning:

1. If you only hit BS, blue DRS decks will still have blue support and not suffer too much. Especially since other competing decks also take a hit.
2. If you a blue ban does hurt blue based DRS decks, we have a new meta where blueless DRS decks could likely thrive. For one, they will no longer be outcassed by the blue versions of the same strategy! surely this is the biggest thing keeping blueless midrange down (Jund didn't ever really die, it just added blue to be better optimised). Take away the blue goodies, and the deck reverts to an earlier version).

At the very least, you can bet your dual lands CotV would no longer outperform blue less DRS in a world w/o cantrips!

Perhaps I worded that wrong, I was surprised not only at the meta share of Grixis Delver, but at how playable Chalice apparently is. As to adaptation, is Grixis Delver in its current form playable without DRS? I don't know, would like to hear the opinion of someone familiar with the deck.
As of now, nonBlue DRS is defined as Elves, Maverick, Jund, and Dark Depths. I guess what I'm wondering is if a (highly unlikely now) Brainstorm ban is actually enough to make these decks more attractive.

[Barook]

But I don't need to poop... Nor do I have the desire to cross the ocean before taking a dump

I was talking about the "suggest better Brainstorm hate" part.

[Echelon]

I was talking about the "suggest better Brainstorm hate" part.

I can help with the name... I call it "Fuck you, cantrip!". Not sure if it'll really catch on though.

Or "Screw cantrips" if we're going for an artifact/enchantment.

[Matsu]

Ok, lets assume they will not ban anything, because pillar etc.

Are they any unbans possible that will give more options. Will extend the current format.

1. DRS stays maybe Survival of the Fittest is fine.
2. Grizzlybrand stays maybe Yawgmoth's Bargain.
3. Show and Tell stays turn one Oath of druids sounds fair to me, so why not.
4. Mind twist is not broken, because you can swamp + 2x dark rit+ mind twist turn one from time to time.
5. Swap SDT with Terminus.

Maybe we should go this way ?
If they really don't want to ban cards, because of the "Fun argument". Maybe they should unban some stuff. I will be happy to play any of the cards mentioned above.

It will be extremely fun to go turn 1: petal, trop, oath against lands or storm or turn 1: bayou, mana dork and turn2: land+SotF against Delver or Czech Pile.

[Crimhead]

Perhaps I worded that wrong, I was surprised not only at the meta share of Grixis Delver, but at how playable Chalice apparently is. As to adaptation, is Grixis Delver in its current form playable without DRS? I don't know, would like to hear the opinion of someone familiar with the deck.

I am not that familiar with tempo decks (beyond smashing them with Lands).

But I tend to think of Pyromancer as providing card advantage more than tempo. Maybe that's why faster tempo decks like Thresh and Prowess don't run it?
DRS certainly encourages Delver decks to grind a little more at the cost of speed. Without DRS, I suspect Delver would prefer one of the faster shells.

Like I said though, I wouldn't touch Delver with a stick. I'd hit it with a Maze, a Punishing Fire, or a 20/20, but not a stick. It would be interesting to hear an actual experienced Delver player chime in on the viability of Pyro builds sans DRS.

As of now, nonBlue DRS is defined as Elves, Maverick, Jund, and Dark Depths. I guess what I'm wondering is if a (highly unlikely now) Brainstorm ban is actually enough to make these decks more attractive.

Hard to say. I feel Elves is pretty good, and it's in and put of DTB. With D&T as DTB again, we can expect Elves to rise again.
Certainly a ban that hits Terminus.dec will give Elves a little boost.

Re Jund and Maverick, if you start taking away cantrips, fair midrange piles should either:

1. Thrive on the 2nd rate cantrips,
2. Revert to non-cantrip builds (like Jund & Maverick), or
3. Fall behind altogether.

Maybe a mix of all 3?

[Zulabnar]

As of now, nonBlue DRS is defined as Elves, Maverick, Jund, and Dark Depths. I guess what I'm wondering is if a (highly unlikely now) Brainstorm ban is actually enough to make these decks more attractive.

The fact is that is very hard to upgrade this deck with new cards without printing something that could also fit well in a brainstorm list.

E.g: If Wizard\Hasbro will print a 3\4 Creature with haste legendary, with cc R you could put it perfectly in a list with brainstorm to avoid to have multiple copies in hand.

Every verygood card that can fit in an aggro deck, could also fit in a aggro\tempo deck (Goyf, Pyromancer, Mentor, Moongose) etc.

You should print something with a very strange limitation ("you can cast this card only if you don't have island among Your land type in play" to not let this card fit in a Brainsrorm+ponder shell, this was clear in mind of MTG producer when they print Eldrazi cards.