All B/R update speculation.

[Claymore]

I kind of wonder if the likes of Oath of Nissa, Mirri's Guile, and something like Grisly Salvage could be implemented to make a more consistent Green shell. Maybe not with those existing cards, but if Wizards explores that space more then we could see better diversity in the future.

Especially something like using Oath's legend rule to boost an early Tarmogoyf, or Grisly Salvage to turbo the yard for a Goyf or Knight, or boost out a Gurmag.

I'd say the number one complaint of players is always variance, so it's a little odd that Wizards hasn't explored that area outside of Blue. Maybe the hot pile of garbage that Arena is will give some more of that coveted "market research" to show that new players drop like flies after getting mana screwed/flooded out of the game when not playing blue - despite the double opening hand gimmick that Arena has.

[Mr. Safety]

This is ridiculous.

As a peasant who can only afford the one Tier 2.5 deck he currently owns I can say without a doubt that your analogy sounds absurd. If keeping a 3k mana base as top dog is your idea of standing up for the little guy then you need to reevaluate your position. Shit man I've never even tasted lobster, I don't give a fuck how much anyone eats. Yeah losing a tool would suck but you know what? Who cares. Like you said it's a fucking game and things change all the time. A card getting banned just means you need to adapt and isn't that the point of deck construction?

P.S. The fact of the matter is we ARE dealing in absolutes as the entire discussion hinges on whether or not a card should be legal in a competitive context.

The guy saying this is an absolute debate uses the argument 'this is ridiculous'. Well played, Mr. Irony.

And you lost the meaning of the post, it was specifically about contrasting Miracles vs. Doomsday. It's really not about eating lobster, seriously. It isn't. I'm not joking, it wasn't about actual money at all. It was an analogy about availability of a non-essential resource in one case and an essential one in the other. And while it's just a game, I am invested in it more than just financially, but emotionally. If you aren't that's fine. Do you scowl while you masturbate too?

Stop and think what would kill legacy the fastest. The first thing that comes to my mind is 'not growing the number of players'. If everyone keeps saying 'no one gives a fuck about the little guy trying to get into the format' then those little guys...wait for it...don't get into the format. 'They won't buy into anyways, because of the $3k mana base!'...you'd be surprised. People with expendable income spend thousands on Golf clubs, or guitars, and other hobbies. Some people actually do buy into the format. I've actually done a little testing on using fetchlands only for basics and using buddy lands or fastlands; it works alright, especially when you consider people play around Wasteland and Blood Moon already.

I think it's more valid to pay attention to how people feel about the game as a whole rather than how uber-serious competitive players feel. We can see that WOTC doesn't support Legacy, not really anyways. What will keep the format alive is the player base. That gets harder and harder the more players leave the format, or on the other side of the coin, don't join the format in the first place. If we really want to compare DRS and Top, we can say that Top enabled a top tier deck that veteran players used (not newer players) while DRS allows newer players a way to use powerful cards in the format by spending $20. Cost is an issue of course, but DRS isn't contributing negatively to the cost of Legacy.

The main focus has gone way off track, but let it just be known I am opposed to a DRS ban, I was opposed to a Top ban, and I'm impartial about Survival. I didn't know the format well enough to have an opinion at the time.

[Cave]

You missed both Hanni's point, and mine, of which we agree. BGx decks aren't tier 1 because of issues unrelated to DRS.

Disagreed 100%. It's not about being tier 1. It's about being unplayable to the point of no-top8 in like, the last 15 big events. And that's precisely because of drs benefitting the grixis delver shell more than any golgari shell. Let's go through it slowly.
1. Any deck playing red should be able to pack direct damage spells and little, aggressive creatures, right?
2. Any deck playing black should be able to play discard spells and interact with graveyard, ok?
3. Any deck playing blue should be able to get a certain amount of manipulation (i know that maybe Legacy has too much of blue manipulation, but that's another point) and counterspell, wouldn't it?
I'm perfectly fine with Grixis Delver being good at cheap threats, cheap removals, cheap manipulation, and cheap disruption; but the deck shouldn't be able to do multiple of those things in one turn because it accelerates as if it was playing green. And the reason is (drum roll), it ain't playing green. Deathrite Shaman contributes to the deck's consistency way more than you think, let alone the fact that it's not simply a mana dork but much more than that.

You know which matchup I'd love to play all day long piloting Junk? DELVER DECKS. I would rather have my cake and let my opponent eat it too.

Maybe you also know why we don't see Junk in top8 despite being good against delver decks, which are a huge chunk of the metagame? The truth hurts.
Also, you're not annihilating Grixis Delver as BGx. You have a good matchup, but the deck is more than well equipped to deal with Junk, Jund and company. In fact, the deck is more than well equipped to deal with everything (numbers show that), the reason being none other than DRS. Fact, i can name many other decks that play the whole 20x blue xerox/cheap counters package and don't fare so well. Guess why? No DRS. No Underground Sea into mana dork. No manipulation, threats, disruption and removal AT THE SAME TIME. I know non-blue midrange would be hurt by a DRS ban, but imagine Grixis falling out of flavour and Canadian becoming the tempo deck of choice. I think that'd be more healthy for the format.
That, or DRS' mana cost being reformed to .

People saying "Gx midrange decks can just play BOP if DRS goes" fundamentally misunderstand why these decks aren't played. The entire ecosystem of the format is warped around the U consistency shell. Banning one non-U card isn't going to change that.

Me saying that bop stuff was just pour parler. The entire ecosystem of the format is warped around the U consistency shell because otherwise legacy would be combo: the format. You need to ban the one non-U card because sure, the format revolves around blue and many decks play the full 8-12-16-20-30-100 cantrips; yet the top four fair competitors (grixis tempo and 4c, bug tempo and bug midrange) are playing the blue consistency shell PAIRED WITH that card. Other decks playing just the a blue shell are relegated to tier 1.5. DRS is the LCD, it has to go imho.

[Mr. Safety]

Disagreed 100%. It's not about being tier 1. It's about being unplayable to the point of no-top8 in like, the last 15 big events. And that's precisely because of drs benefitting the grixis delver shell more than any golgari shell. Let's go through it slowly.
1. Any deck playing red should be able to pack direct damage spells and little, aggressive creatures, right?
2. Any deck playing black should be able to play discard spells and interact with graveyard, ok?
3. Any deck playing blue should be able to get a certain amount of manipulation (i know that maybe Legacy has too much of blue manipulation, but that's another point) and counterspell, wouldn't it?
I'm perfectly fine with Grixis Delver being good at cheap threats, cheap removals, cheap manipulation, and cheap disruption; but the deck shouldn't be able to do multiple of those things in one turn because it accelerates as if it was playing green. And the reason is (drum roll), it ain't playing green. Deathrite Shaman contributes to the deck's consistency way more than you think, let alone the fact that it's not simply a mana dork but much more than that.

Agreed. I don't see anything contradictory...I said I know why Junk isn't tier one, it has consistency issues. The multiple plays a turn happens in Junk, too, albeit no 'free' ones outside of Cabal Therapy. I'm fine with Grixis Delver having DRS, although you aren't. Sorry?

Maybe you also know why we don't see Junk in top8 despite being good against delver decks, which are a huge chunk of the metagame?

I do. I stated it above, again. EDIT: It doesn't stop my LGS from having Enchantress, Manaless Dredge, Pox, Burn, and other tier 2.5 or lower decks. And you know what? I fucking LOVE IT.

The truth hurts.

I'm ok with it. I mean, I drink a ton and shoot heroine to get over it, but hey, everybody needs a coping mechanism. #sarcasm

Also, you're not annihilating Grixis Delver as BGx.

I said this where? I said which matchup I'd like to face all day long, one I feel (to be clear) Junk is mildly favored against. Wait, no, you're right, I said "ANNHILATING! CRUSHING IT LIKE SHAQ IN A 5TH GRADE TETHERBALL TOURNAMENT!"

You have a good matchup, but the deck is more than well equipped to deal with Junk, Jund and company.

The several times I've lost to it have poignantly let me know this. Truth.

In fact, the deck is more than well equipped to deal with everything (numbers show that), the reason being none other than DRS. Fact, i can name many other decks who play the whole 20x blue xerox/cheap counters package and don't fare so well. Guess why? No DRS. No Underground Sea into mana dork. No manipulation, threats, disruption and removal AT THE SAME TIME. I know non-blue midrange would be hurt by a DRS ban, but imagine Grixis falling out of flavour and Canadian becoming the tempo deck of choice. I think that'd be more healthy for the format.
That, or DRS' mana cost being reformed to .

People hated Canadian Thresh when it was top dog, too. Poop doesn't change, it just moves to another pile. Brainstorm was the main linchpin of that argument, but sometimes Delver as well.

Me saying that bop stuff was just pour parler.

But it was wrong...

[Zombie]

I kind of wonder if the likes of Oath of Nissa, Mirri's Guile, and something like Grisly Salvage could be implemented to make a more consistent Green shell. Maybe not with those existing cards, but if Wizards explores that space more then we could see better diversity in the future.

Especially something like using Oath's legend rule to boost an early Tarmogoyf, or Grisly Salvage to turbo the yard for a Goyf or Knight, or boost out a Gurmag.

I'd say the number one complaint of players is always variance, so it's a little odd that Wizards hasn't explored that area outside of Blue. Maybe the hot pile of garbage that Arena is will give some more of that coveted "market research" to show that new players drop like flies after getting mana screwed/flooded out of the game when not playing blue - despite the double opening hand gimmick that Arena has.

The problem with all green draw WotC prints is that it's self-terminating. Despite green's theme being "growth", it can't draw into draw into draw with raw draw effects. Green selection effects looking for land/critters/enchantments is fine. But it needs more Harmonize.

[Tittliewinks22]

I said this where? I said which matchup I'd like to face all day long, one I feel (to be clear) Junk is mildly favored against. Wait, no, you're right, I said "ANNHILATING! CRUSHING IT LIKE SHAQ IN A 5TH GRADE TETHERBALL TOURNAMENT!"

Shaq did get beat by a kid at basketball... or are we forgetting Aaron Carter???

[Cave]

Agreed. I don't see anything contradictory...I said I know why Junk isn't tier one, it has consistency issues. The multiple plays a turn happens in Junk, too, albeit no 'free' ones outside of Cabal Therapy. I'm fine with Grixis Delver having DRS, although you aren't. Sorry?

Grixis Delver has 3 maindeck free plays: Gitaxian Probe, Daze, and Force of Will. You can play probe in your deck too, and I strongly advise against advocating for a metagame without Daze and Fow.
On a serious note, I believe that blue should be able to cantrip into an answer. Maybe some of the legacy godly cantrips can go, but card selection is a general feature of blue and it has to stay.
Also, my other point is, you can be a competitor in any given metagame and not playing the blue shell. It's difficult, but possibile if you play enough good cards and power level can compensate for consistency issues. Eldrazi and Dragon Stompy show that.

I do. I stated it above, again. EDIT: It doesn't stop my LGS from having Enchantress, Manaless Dredge, Pox, Burn, and other tier 2.5 or lower decks. And you know what? I fucking LOVE IT.

I love it too and would love more decks to be viable. That's why DRS has to go, and they need to print more good cards that don't fit into a blue shell and reward players for playing non-blue eternal decks.

People hated Canadian Thresh when it was top dog, too. Poop doesn't change, it just moves to another pile. Brainstorm was the main linchpin of that argument, but sometimes Delver as well.

I think it's fair discussing metagame rebalancing from time to time. Eternal doesn't mean stale as fish. When every big tournament gets like, 3 top8 lists that are 74/75, I think it's time to talk.

[taconaut]

I'd say the number one complaint of players is always variance, so it's a little odd that Wizards hasn't explored that area outside of Blue. Maybe the hot pile of garbage that Arena is will give some more of that coveted "market research" to show that new players drop like flies after getting mana screwed/flooded out of the game when not playing blue - despite the double opening hand gimmick that Arena has.

I believe their market research actually shows the opposite: one of the few characteristics that encourages new players to pick up Magic and keep playing it is the variance. Games that lack variance, like Chess, are difficult to get into as a newcomer because the better player basically always wins; by contrast, in Magic, a newbie can occasionally take a game off of a veteran because the veteran drew poorly. Those victories, whether earned or not, encourage them to get more invested because it seems possible to make headway. On the other side of the coin, new players can chalk their own losses up to variance ("I'd have won if I had just drawn my seventh forest for this thorn elemental!!") rather than their own shortcomings (perhaps building a deck with too few forests and a thorn elemental), and thus the losses feel less bad. If anything, I'd expect wizards to introduce more variance, rather than less.

[maharis]

Grixis Delver has 3 maindeck free plays: Gitaxian Probe, Daze, and Force of Will.

Congratulations, you're finally starting to hit on why Grixis Delver specifically is so good while other decks, even those that play DRS, aren't! Hint: Not having to pay mana for your plays is super good!

You can play probe in your deck too, and I strongly advise against advocating for a metagame without Daze and Fow.

"DRS just goes in every deck"
"You can play probe in any deck"

Can we get a thinking face smiley please? I don't think the board supports emoji.

On a serious note, I believe that blue should be able to cantrip into an answer. Maybe some of the legacy godly cantrips can go, but card selection is a general feature of blue and it has to stay.

Sure. You shouldn't be able to build board presence with cantrips, though. I play Monastery Mentor and that card is really dumb. The only thing holding it back is that you can do something similar for 1 or 2 mana with Delve and YP. [/QUOTE]

yet the top four fair competitors (grixis tempo and 4c, bug tempo and bug midrange) are playing the blue consistency shell PAIRED WITH that card. Other decks playing just the a blue shell are relegated to tier 1.5.

Let's look at live legacy tournaments: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=478&meta=72&f=LE

At least 1% meta decks with 4 Brainstorm and no DRS:

UR Delver 4%
Miracle variants 5%
Storm 4%
Show & Tell 4%
Infect 2%
Grixis Control 1% (only one of the decks in the sample has 4 DRS)
Possibly more since I didn't parse all Stoneblade or BUG decks

At least 1% meta decks with 4 DRS and 0 Brainstorm:

Elves 5%
Maverick 2% (of course not all Maverick decks play 4 DRS)
Jund 1%
I didn't dive into all Turbo Depths lists nor count Aggro Loam which sometimes has 1 as a GSZ target. But that's not 4-of.

So to recap: About 1 in 5 successful legacy decks plays Brainstorm and not DRS. For DRS and not Brainstorm, it's 1 in about 12. So you are more than twice as likely to be able to top a tournament with your Brainstorm-no-DRS deck than your DRS-no-Brainstorm deck. And if you don't also play the very dedicated all-in combo version it's 1 in 33.

By comparison, DRS + Brainstorm decks are about 1 in 3. So you are something like 40% more likely to do well with a DRS+Brainstorm deck than a Brainstorm-no-DRS deck, but 200% more likely to do well with a Brainstorm-no-DRS deck than DRS-no-Brainstorm.

You are more likely to do well with a Chalice or Thalia deck than a non-blue fair deck with Deathrite Shaman:
D&T 5%
Eldrazi 4%
Moon stompy 4%

You are more likely to do better with burn (3%) or lands (3%). Or just about as likely to do well with dredge or reanimator (2%) DESPITE DRS in the format.

So spare me the sob story about how hard it is being tier 1.5 with UWx control or whatever. Everyone has to accept that cantrip+fetchland fair decks will always be the best. Now the discussion is about what the tipping point is for a deck being too good, and if there's a better way to tamp it down without taking out the only card that is playable in different decks (like we did with Top).

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think a format filled with Deathrite Shaman is anything to be afraid of. What I am afraid of is: what comes next that's even better than DRS? If history is anything to judge by, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary, Snapcaster Mage, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and Goblin Lackey have all had their turn as the 'best creature' in Legacy. DRS is easier splashed, sure, takes less effort. But something else will come along and be better. Or the game will collapse before then, which isn't out of the realm of possibility. Standard is a mess, their efforts at eternal reprint sets are failing, Modern is the most popular format, and Pauper (the format almost entirely based off of the secondary market) is gaining in popularity. If Arena bombs, and lets just say that some of us think this is not only possible but likely, where does that leave MtG? The conversations in this thread echo not only the livelihood of Legacy, but Magic as a game, in my humble opinion. So in standard it's a different card (Aetherworks Marvel maybe) that gets tossed around with implications of losing players/not gaining new ones. Ok, same deal. The more they ban, the less confidence we have in them, the less players actually buy cardboard and go to digital. Then if (when?) digital fails, I think we see the beginning of the end.

[Cave]

Congratulations, you're finally starting to hit on why Grixis Delver specifically is so good while other decks, even those that play DRS, aren't! Hint: Not having to pay mana for your plays is super good!

Congratulations, you just looked like a jerk. Stop making assumptions on what I'm starting or not starting to do. Just because I share some of your opinions doesn't mean I'm "starting" to do anything.

You want to argue in favor of a metagame without daze and fow, because you want to play, say, BGx? Help yourself. Go on ignoring that Daze and Fow existing in legacy is the sole reason BGx is even a deck. Organize a "no free spells allowed tournament" and play fair nonblue, get Shown and Told T2 rounds 1 to 5, then come back here in the deck-related thread crying for injustice

So spare me the sob story about how hard it is being tier 1.5 with UWx control or whatever. Everyone has to accept that cantrip+fetchland fair decks will always be the best. Now the discussion is about what the tipping point is for a deck being too good, and if there's a better way to tamp it down without taking out the only card that is playable in different decks (like we did with Top).

Maybe you spare us the crybaby banter about how BGx's sole hope of viability relies on deathrite shaman and start realizing how toxic the card is to the metagame when combined with the blue kernel (which probably is a bit toxic itself but i'm not speaking about that right now). You said it: the blue pack is too good not to play it, and adding drs to that rises your chances of top8 by friggin 40%. Seriously.
Wiz should start encouraging non blue deckbuilding in eternal with specifically aimed cards.

[Dice_Box]

Keep it civil please people.

[Lemnear]

These days, Survival would be Tier 2 at best.

This is where your arguments go overboard. You can't seriously start to argue that DRS + SotF is a T2 core "at best".

I don't think a format filled with Deathrite Shaman is anything to be afraid of. What I am afraid of is: what comes next that's.

The only thing you should be afraid of is the streamlining of decks. We have 4 top performing decks which literally run the same core in 4 flavor variants.

We had Brainstorm + Ponder for years as a core which was expanded by Probe and now DRS. Together with Daze, FoW and Fetches that's 50% of your Legacy meta deck carved in stone. For me personally, it indicates a problem if the freedom of deckbuilding within T1 decks is limited to the question if you run three, three-and-a-half or four colors

[Kap'n Cook]

I wish Nedleeds was here

[Hanni]

This is where your arguments go overboard. You can't seriously start to argue that DRS + SotF is a T2 core "at best".

You may not believe that, but I do. I don't think it's overboard at all. Survival is way too slow of an engine these days, and the answers to it are numerous. DRS, Abrupt Decay, Phyrexian Revoker, Surgical Extractions in sideboards, just to name a few.

I'm not saying Survival wouldn't get played, or that it's awful, but I think it would be Tier 2. Tier 2 decks still do well sometimes... Tier 2 isn't jank... but it's slightly worse than what the format is currently capable of doing.

[Gheizen64]

Survival maverick would only be marginally better than current maverick. Card is absurdly slow by today's standards and can't play the tempo shell (daze/force) because you need a lot of creature for survival to be consistent.

Brainstorm is literally the reason miracle and all the blue archetypes were and still are too good, not top (who could've thought that blue being too good was because of a blue card and not a colorless one?!?). A control prison archetype was different from *allgoodstuff.dec* but instead of weakening the blue shell wotc went and nuked a unique deck while leaving tempo decks untouched. GJ.

Unban survival and top. If u wanna get interesting unban bargain and mana drain as well.
Ban brainstorm.

Format's fixed you don't nerd to pay me wotc. Grixis tempo now play thought scour for its delve sheananigans, green has a faster finish in sotf and become a natural predator to miracle that still get to play countertop but has a very real natural predator in combo/midrange/aggro decks because of harder termini and survival giving them refuel ability.

As a side effect you get back painter and u cripple snt.

[Lemnear]

Survival maverick would only be marginally better than current maverick. Card is absurdly slow by today's standards and can't play the tempo shell (daze/force) because you need a lot of creature for survival to be consistent.

The last time survival was legal, it well ran Daze and FoW. No idea why it should be a problem now after WotC has been printed better blue creatures over the years.

Unban ... top ... and mana drain as well.

Yeah, because Miracles wasn't cancerous before, lets give it mana drain on top to easier hardcast Terminus and slam Jaces.

[Cave]

The only serious unbans that one should consider are:

-Earthcraft (maybe creating a new deck...maybe. Combo is green heavy and weak to needle effects)
-Frantic Search (So Spiral Tide becomes t1.5 from t2)
-Goblin Recruiter (maybe)
-Memory Jar (edit: actually not sure about this one. Probably there's still room for exploit)
-Mind Twist (because it's weak)

The rest is banned for a good reason and needs to stay banned.

[jubeininja69]

would like to see Goblin Recruiter unbanned. it's not right to see the little red men not having a presence in legacy anymore.

[Gwathnar]

In a format where Turn 1/2 Griselbrand and Emrakul is possible, banning DRS seems a bit silly to me.
It's not that bad of a card. Sure it accelerates your opponent with it's mana ability but so would a mana dork. I think he helps to keep Graveyard decks in check.

That said the thing I dislike about the card is how every deck has to splash to play him. Grixis is no longer true Grixis but rather 4 colour since it has to splash green to play DRS and all of his abilities. This can make for a weaker mana base in some decks.