All B/R update speculation.

[Noctalor]

Power creep happens over time, but Goyf is still Goyf. Gotta get off the text box and keep driving the point home: 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trampling, summoning sick. The same card is still the same card. Let us stick with what is objectively true and rid ourselves of this pointless subjective stuff about the ethereal importance of flying.

In terms of answers, Murktide dies to every color: enemy Murktide (blue), REB (red), flyabolic edicts (green), Sudden Edict (black), Plow (white). The silver lining to all of this is that no matter how unhealthy a Goyf-type is in legacy, Murktide far better design than actual Goyf - Murktide must by definition kill at least one instance of itself when in combat with another Murktide. Nothing was quite as stupid as playing Goyf b/c you couldn't beat it, and still not being able to block Goyf in combat with Goyf b/c they had Bolt.

Do you realize that having twice the stats means that you have half the time to answer it?
And that basically killing in one blow means that the owner of murktide can cast force of will to defend it almost regardless of board state, because it has evasion?
Do you also realize that by being blue it requires basicly no effort to put in your deck, and the best deck at abusing it also runs 10 more creatures that you must kill on the spot, meaning that you are likely not going to have removal instantly?


I dont get this oversimplyfication, do you really think that any beater would be fair at 2 mana, regardless of power or evasion?
Would be a 20/20 flying for balanced because you can answer it?

Also "pointless subjective stuff about the ethereal importance of flying", i mean, you joking right?

[Erdvermampfa]

If they will really ban Daze I seriously expect this format to become pretty much like Modern but only a lot worse. You would then have an extremely high powerlevel (a lot higher than Modern) with threats while the answers for these do not match in terms of power anymore. This has always been the issue with Modern and it's imo the main reason why that format is so bad. I don't necessarily expect it's going to happen and hopefully there is some reason left at Wizards but if it does happen I would seriously call this format pretty much dead because it would be Modern but only a lot worse. Unfortunately they might consider Daze-Ban as a convenient way to not ban Ragavan because they dont want to make their most recent chase mythic worthless.

[Zoid]

If they will really ban Daze I seriously expect this format to become pretty much like Modern but only a lot worse. You would then have an extremely high powerlevel (a lot higher than Modern) with threats while the answers for these do not match in terms of power anymore. This has always been the issue with Modern and it's imo the main reason why that format is so bad. I don't necessarily expect it's going to happen and hopefully there is some reason left at Wizards but if it does happen I would seriously call this format pretty much dead because it would be Modern but only a lot worse. Unfortunately they might consider Daze-Ban as a convenient way to not ban Ragavan because they dont want to make their most recent chase mythic worthless.

Do you seriously think that legacy has any kind of relevancy on the prices of a card that is also relevant in modern?

[Erdvermampfa]

Do you seriously think that legacy has any kind of relevancy on the prices of a card that is also relevant in modern?

No, but it certainly won't leave a good impression for the customers if one of the main selling points of one of their most recent sets gets banned (again) within 6 months after its release. And it will undoubtedly make people a lot more reluctant to buy products with overly pushed chase cards in the future. Wizards surely know this, therefore we haven't seen a ban yet or and might see a very questionable action from Wizards (i.e. Daze ban).

[FTW]

In world where Murktide, DRC, Delver, and TNN don't exist, Nacatl doesn't suddenly become playable. You explained why those cards are playable: they are backed up by pitch counters and cantrips.

The reality is that in Legacy regular aggro decks are not playable so,

Aggro used to be playable in Legacy. Zoo, 9 land stompy, Aggro Loam, Goyf Sligh, The Cure, etc. Taiga/Forest beatdown could do things.

It was always soft to combo, but would prey on blue decks because blue didn't have beatsticks. Blue could stop combo but was painfully slow, so there was actually a cost to getting those pitch counters and cantrips. Giving blue the best beatsticks means there's really no reason to be nonblue beatdown anymore (unless Chalice or hatebears), blue tempo can just cover more ground. This first started with Goyf, but the Delver era really pushed it over the top. Around the same period, blue gaining Snapcaster, TNN and Baleful Strix really drove the nail in the coffin for blue vs beatdown matches.

[Purple Blood]

Aggro used to be playable in Legacy. Zoo, 9 land stompy, Aggro Loam, Goyf Sligh, The Cure, etc.

Sure. But those didn't become unplayable because of any of the new creatures being printed. They became unplayable because the whole format is way more powerful and plain aggro just doesn't work anymore.

[Watersaw]

Sure. But those didn't become unplayable because of any of the new creatures being printed. They became unplayable because the whole format is way more powerful and plain aggro just doesn't work anymore.

This. If anything aggro should be thriving off the back of Goyf/Ragavan/whatever other pushed 1 and 2 drops have been printed. If you want to go all in on trying to end the game you should be playing combo.

[Fox]

Do you realize that having twice the stats means that you have half the time to answer it?
And that basically killing in one blow means that the owner of murktide can cast force of will to defend it almost regardless of board state, because it has evasion?
Do you also realize that by being blue it requires basicly no effort to put in your deck, and the best deck at abusing it also runs 10 more creatures that you must kill on the spot, meaning that you are likely not going to have removal instantly?


I dont get this oversimplyfication, do you really think that any beater would be fair at 2 mana, regardless of power or evasion?
Would be a 20/20 flying for balanced because you can answer it?

Also "pointless subjective stuff about the ethereal importance of flying", i mean, you joking right?

You're letting subjective emotion in again. Back to the basics: 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trampling, summoning sick. A Goyf is a Goyf.

Once you've got that down we can move on to another objective observation: power creep happens, and one manifestation of this is that the stats in the lower right corner of a card go up while the mana cost stays the same (or decreases). So is Murktide just Goyf? yes. Did Goyf finally get power-creep'd? yes. Is a Goyf still a Goyf despite power-creep? yes.

You have missed a number of steps in power creep from actual Tarmogoyf to hypothetical 20/20 Goyf. Actual Goyf ranges from 4/5 to 6/7, whereas Murktide ranges from 5/5 to 8/8. This is well within what we would expect from power creep over a period of 15 years.

The reason subjective stuff doesn't work is b/c caring about flying is deck specific. For example, someone who plays Strix or Ice-Fang, basically any combo deck, decks with wraths, and the list goes on - they don't care if it flies, because it doesn't matter to them. If a Goyf suddenly matters to you b/c it flies, that is your problem - it is a subjective concern, and *you* need to build your deck differently to not die to Goyf.

When you go on with more subjective feelings about how it's blue and what that means...you need to understand that everyone who's ever played a Volcanic is jumping up and down in joy b/c Murktide merely existing means that actual Goyf will never be played again, and new Goyf gets dumpstered by REB. Anyone that plays green should be excited too, b/c Goyf flies now, along with Grisel and Emmy and Lage, so now you get rewarded for having flyabolic edict in your SB (y'know when you're not GSZ'ing up a Grist kill spell). Even mono-U can add new Goyf to their deck as a kill spell for new Goyf. This development might suck for *you* but that's your problem, not everyone else's - your concern here is subjective.

So while Goyf should have been banned out of the format before 2010, and its design space never explored again, and anti-Goyfs like Snapcaster/Strix/Ice-Fang/Uro etc also never printed...it wasn't, and the fundamental problem the concept of Goyf created has always been here. If it took a power-creeping 15 years later for you realize that this is a fundamental flaw of the format, just accept that your happy days of pretending Goyf isn't a format-ruining force are over. Welcome to legacy, real legacy - the format where we don't submit a deck that fails the "dies to Goyf" test at construction.

[Noctalor]

You're letting subjective emotion in again. Back to the basics: 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trampling, summoning sick. A Goyf is a Goyf.

By this logic depths combo tries to use two cards to play a tarmogoyf asap

Once you've got that down we can move on to another objective observation: power creep happens, and one manifestation of this is that the stats in the lower right corner of a card go up while the mana cost stays the same (or decreases).

Indeed, power creep happens

So is Murktide just Goyf? yes.

Not at all, both being in the beatstick category does not mean they have the same impact, in fact, they absolutely dont

Did Goyf finally get power-creep'd? yes.

It's not even strict power creep, simply murktide is a different cards which happens to have many beneficts on goys, functional beneficts, not a +1+1

Is a Goyf still a Goyf despite power-creep? yes.

No, i am calling BS, dont speak as if you are right, it doesnt make you right

You have missed a number of steps in power creep from actual Tarmogoyf to hypothetical 20/20 Goyf. Actual Goyf ranges from 4/5 to 6/7, whereas Murktide ranges from 5/5 to 8/8. This is well within what we would expect from power creep over a period of 15 years.

This, yet again, is bs reasoning to sound right.
The cards are indeed different, because you do require a different setup to get them online, is is very easy to get a 4/5 goyf, but it very rarely gets to 6/7, while getting 3 8/8 murktides in a game is a joke, this is one of the aspects which in fact make the two cards very different.
You could be realistic and at least say that murktide is the out of this world power crept version of tombstalker, and it would be reasonable, but i guess that in your logic gurmag/stalker/murktide/goyf are all the same card, which is absolutely a fallacy due to subjectivity

The reason subjective stuff doesn't work is b/c caring about flying is deck specific.

Yet again, absolute bs, having flying is a straight buff to the card, and it is a massive buff, it may not be relevant in every mu, but having it makes the card stricly better and much more relevant in a lot of MUs, so in your opinion a destructible marit lage would be the exact same because not every deck has destroy-like removal/deaththouch blockers? A non protected progenitus would be the same because some decks do not run removal?

For example, someone who plays Strix or Ice-Fang,

100% not true, if you play the MU twice you notice that by having flying murktide gets checked by only those cards, this lets you ignore half of your opponent board, and by being an 8/8 you actually need to connect a few times to win, on the other and a tarmogoyf basically has no chance to do much because it gets both checked by fang and uro/land blockers

basically any combo deck,

Murktide is a side out vs combo btw

decks with wraths,

???

they don't care if it flies, because it doesn't matter to them.

But they often do, I have literally seen a monastery mentor board getting slammed by a murktide and a channeller, flying being relevant happens in most MUs, a lot also, do you think a land delver would have been the same impactful card?

If a Goyf suddenly matters to you b/c it flies, that is your problem - it is a subjective concern, and *you* need to build your deck differently to not die to Goyf.

By having flying you have less cards to build your deck on beating it, and by having less of them your opponent gets much more agency, and by killing you in two blows he can even take 1/2 -1 in cards and win

When you go on with more subjective feelings about how it's blue and what that means...

It means that you are not forced into splashing a third color to have a beatstick, which makes your deck insanely better

and new Goyf gets dumpstered by REB.

It dies to removal, lets not talk about how it does not die by bolt/ending/decay/submerge

Anyone that plays green should be excited too, b/c Goyf flies now, along with Grisel and Emmy and Lage, so now you get rewarded for having flyabolic edict in your SB (y'know when you're not GSZ'ing up a Grist kill spell).

What green based deck does run that? maybe BUG?
Well, bug literally got removed from legacy by murktide, how rewarding

Even mono-U can add new Goyf to their deck as a kill spell for new Goyf.

This reasoning is actually next level, card x is ok because you too can play it, so lets unban ancestral recall because your opponent can also play it and go even

This development might suck for *you* but that's your problem, not everyone else's - your concern here is subjective.

You actually somehow forgot to reply the last time you made an ad hominem on me this is a partial list of my tops, tell me why i should have a bias or what is the deck i play which is impacted by murktide.

Literally, I simply test most decks and have seen that the card is probably the main reason why UR is busted (+ ragavan indeed), it takes playing the game to see that you can make a million counter arguments, but in the end it is unfair to play vs a deck that has a million removal checks in a row followed by and 8/8 flying

[FTW]

Sure. But those didn't become unplayable because of any of the new creatures being printed. They became unplayable because the whole format is way more powerful and plain aggro just doesn't work anymore.

They became unplayable because blue got the new best creatures. Blue can play the best aggro creatures (and do other things too), which makes blue tempo clearly better. The point of aggro was to pick up free wins vs blue because blue had worse creatures and FoW is card disadvantage vs fair creatures. When blue gets the best creatures, blue tempo makes aggro obsolete.

There was a natural rock-scissors-paper dynamic. Blue beats combo. Aggro beats blue. Combo beats aggro.

If a metagame became too much fair blue, aggro stomps it. This is how you reduce the Brainstorm % in the top 8. You don't need to ban Brainstorm. Just give aggro new tools (to keep up with power creep) that blue can't play. Taiga aggro is still stuck back in Wild Nacatl land while blue gained the best beatdown in Delver of Secrets, True Name Nemesis, Sprite Dragon, Dragon's Rage Channeler, Murktide Regent as well as defensive 2-for-1 anti-aggro tools like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Ice-Fang Coatl, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath. How can beatdown ever keep up when the new power-creeped creatures go to blue?

Wild Nacatl was good card design because it was an overstatted (for the time) aggro creature that is easy to run in Taiga decks but bad in Island decks. This is what aggro needs to be viable. Power creeped beatdown creatures that aren't just better in blue decks. As for the format being more powerful now, that doesn't obsolete the aggro game plan, it just means aggro would need new tools to keep up with the format's increased power level.

Beetdown R/G
Creature - Human Warrior
Haste
When ~ ETB, sacrifice all Islands you control.
If a land you control would produce mana, it instead produces R or G.
4/4

Megantic Nacatl G
Creature - Cat Warrior Berserker
First Strike
+1/+1 as long as you control Plains
+1/+1 as long as you control Mountain
+1/+1 as long as you control Forest
-2/-2 as long as you control Island
2/2

If you make the card strong enough to keep up with the format's power, and not playable in blue tempo, then aggro as a concept can work. Wizards just keeps giving the best creatures to blue.

[Noctalor]

They became unplayable because blue got the new best creatures. Blue can play the best aggro creatures (and do other things too), which makes blue tempo clearly better. The point of aggro was to pick up free wins vs blue because blue had wors
...
to blue.

To be fair, aggro currently needs to be actually busted to be relevant, you can see a bit of aggro in the current madness iteration, which basically gets there by turn 3.

It would be quite hard to see a straight fair aggro such as zoo, you can get better results both by being an pseudo combo deck such as madness, or having at least a lock gameplan

[FTW]

To be fair, aggro currently needs to be actually busted to be relevant, you can see a bit of aggro in the current madness iteration, which basically gets there by turn 3.

It would be quite hard to see a straight fair aggro such as zoo, you can get better results both by being an pseudo combo deck suck as madness, or having at least a lock gameplan

Well yeah, it would need to be creeped to have a goldfish clock around turn 3-4. Being a bit slower than Madness is OK because it's also less fragile to hate, so it would have better postboard games.

[Reeplcheep]

I feel like aggro is actually doing ok. It’s not like any pure prison or control strategy exists either.

Aggro-combo (madness), aggro-control (UR 2Delver) and aggro-prison (fireflux stompy) are all great decks right now.

Madness is just aggro + LED and fireflux is just aggro plus chalice. If you took modern 8 bushwacker zoo (the purest aggro deck imo) and added chalice or LED to the deck to not auto-lose to combo, you would arrive at these decks. It’s crazy to only accept decks that don’t play the best cards in the format as “real aggro”. They both play lots of creatures that they can hard cast and plan on turning them sideways over 2-3 turns.

[FTW]

True Jund aggro-combo and Red aggro-prison are good. There's also a lower-tier Naya Landfall aggro-combo.

I should have specified "nonblue aggro". This is just not a role blue is supposed to dominate in the color pie. RG (blue's natural enemy) is supposed to beatdown on blue with aggro, and it used to in Legacy's earlier more diverse days. This ended around when Delver took over as the format's top "aggro" deck. Nonblue aggro-control existed (Goblins), so it was not necessary to give this role primarily to blue by printing beatdown threats that work best in blue decks. Giving blue both the best aggro deck and the best anti-aggro tools is why the format is all Brainstorm, instead of letting more fair aggro decks prey on those blue decks.

Aggro-combo trades resilience for speed. It has some weaknesses in that you can hate out the combo engine instead of having to answer every creature. Pure aggro plays a slightly different role, with no combo engine to hate on, so you have to actually answer a whole bunch of creatures, which used to be hard for control to do. This role is now missing. Although Red aggro-prison has gotten a lot better at producing consistent threats, compared to the early Dragon Stompy days of Gray Ogre beatdown.

[Reeplcheep]

It’s not really a blue problem. It is a “combo is viable” problem. Even if you produced some busted standalone cheap threat that can’t be played in blue decks, the aggro version would still be worse than the aggro-prison version. For aggro to be better than aggro-prison, the 5th and 6th best threat have to be better than the 1st and 2nd best interactive piece against the field. Not the 1st and 2nd best threat.

That is never going to happen unless A.combo is completely unviable, or B. there is someway that all the threats synergize together and interaction wouldn’t (aka aggro-combo)

The comparison isn’t Beetdown, ragavan, Kird ape, Nacatl vs kird ape nacatl Thalia Teeg. It’s vs Beetdown, Ragavan Thalia Teeg.

[FTW]

When aggro was viable in the format, the combo problem was still there. It was just OK to have bad matchups. Zoo could win an SCG even though it was 10-90 vs Tendrils and Belcher. But then combo could also win, if there wasn't enough police. Fair blue was dominant but it wasn't automatically fair blue topping all events. You didn't need to be favored against everything (until 50-50 Delver aggro-control).

I point out blue as a problem because it was historically a good matchup that changed to a bad matchup. If aggro doesn't beat blue, there's no reason to play it. If blue aggro-control has as fast a clock but also hates on combo, it's just the better beatdown. The viable aggro-prison decks work because their prison pieces also slow down blue (on top of combo). Punishing blue is essential, otherwise you're better on Delver.

Otherwise, I agree, just adding 1 power creeped creature isn't enough. Pure aggro revolves around playing many strong threats, a more uniform power level across the deck. It would take many printings to catch up to 10 years of giving blue tools without giving aggro tools (sidenote: I think this imbalance happened due to WOTC controlling the speed of Standard and Modern, not printing more aggressive creatures, but this had unintended consequences on Legacy as the rest of the format kept gaining power). A single OP Zoo threat would just slot into a hatebears deck, yeah. Once there are many strong beaters, Thalia/Teeg do reduce the potential to use Lightning Bolt, Price of Progress and Fireblast to add reach and speed up the clock, so prison isn't strictly better. It might just be SB for combo.

Moon Stompy has gotten there over time, finally enough threat density to play beatdown instead of control. It took more than just Goblin Rabblemaster to do it though.

[Reeplcheep]

Moon Stompy has gotten there over time, finally enough threat density to play beatdown instead of control. It took more than just Goblin Rabblemaster to do it though.

I think we agree then. It did receive a ton of flat power level threats to make the aggro plan good:

Rabble 2.0
Legion Warboss
Rabble of the Shock
Bonecrusher Giant
The rabble master of rabblemasters
Fireflux squad

[Zoid]

A lot of factors playing into the decline of "pure turn dude sideways" aggro.

Most of them are facets of combo and blue getting good creatures.
Something that wasn't mentioned so far is consistency.
With non-blue aggro you have very few ways of generating card quality, let alone card advantage.
Essentially, you take the top ~10 cards of your deck and throw them at your opponent.
If they have enough answers, you loose.
While this is also true for other decks, these opening cards can contain Chalice or other things which actively stop your opponent from doing things.
Combo also got more redundancy and power over the last few years making decks faster and more consistent.
Hoping to resolve a hate bear postboard is just not a valid plan, especially if you're going to lose g1 to 95% and you're going to be on the play g3.
At this point blue comes in which has better creatures, card selection and can actually interact with the stack.
If stuff like Once upon a Time, Abundant Harvest and to a lesser extend Adventurous Impulse had been printed years ago then there might have been a slower decline.
However if you're best quality cards a Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library then you're too slow.

Don't forget that we got a bunch of much better removal as well which check creatures better than just StP and Bolt.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Pure aggro isn't going to be viable unless you get like 4/4s for 1 and even then it needs haste or it's going to die to removal.
If you're want to know what aggro looks like it's already here in ragavan or drc. Too bad those cards, despite being above rate attackers, are tempo plays anyways

[Fox]

By this logic depths combo tries to use two cards to play a tarmogoyf asap

They didn't get a 1-card combo without any downside. This is consistent with why a 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick is a format-wide problem. It is design space that should have been banned before 2010. Alas that never happened, so here we are continually dealing with the fallout of Goyf...and all the anti-Goyf (Strix, Ice-Fang, SCM, Uro, etc) baggage. The corruption of the format has already spread, and it's here to stay.

Not at all, both being in the beatstick category does not mean they have the same impact, in fact, they absolutely dont

The concept of Goyf was not banned, it will continue to recur with power creep. You will never be safe from a 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick dude because future iterations will always be power crept.

It's not even strict power creep, simply murktide is a different cards which happens to have many beneficts on goys, functional beneficts, not a +1+1

2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick = 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick. They are the same card. You can point out differences after this, but you will accept the simple fact that a Goyf is a Goyf. Please explain how Murktide is not 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick.

No, i am calling BS, dont speak as if you are right, it doesnt make you right

You would cry about any card which met Goyf criteria with power creep. We could ban Murktide and we don't even need the next Goyf iteration to exist yet to know your response would be "ban it."

The ban ship on 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick has sailed. It's here to stay. The parameters of the next power-crept Goyf are already defined - have a plan more complex plan than endlessly saying "ban." The parameters of Goyf can be targeted, adjust your decklist accordingly and prophylactically...Winter is coming.

The cards are indeed different, because you do require a different setup to get them online, is is very easy to get a 4/5 goyf, but it very rarely gets to 6/7, while getting 3 8/8 murktides in a game is a joke, this is one of the aspects which in fact make the two cards very different.

I cast a card I already run; it's called Pyroblast. Actual Goyf lived, Goyf 2.0 died. See how arguing minor differences is subjective and pointless?
Murktide is better than Tarmogoyf vs Murktide dies easier = no winner.

You could be realistic and at least say that murktide is the out of this world power crept version of tombstalker, and it would be reasonable, but i guess that in your logic gurmag/stalker/murktide/goyf are all the same card, which is absolutely a fallacy due to subjectivity

Again, explain how Murktide is not 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick.

having flying is a straight buff to the card...having it makes the card stricly better

Oof man, I just talked about how flying mono-crops into targetable keyword flying. It's never been easier to find a reason to have flyabolic edict in the 75. It just gave an entire color [green] the answer to a long-standing, format-ruining problem: 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick.

That flying matters is subjective, meaning it might be harder for *you* to deal with. I for one have always targeted the concept of Goyf and I haven't noticed a lick of difference between Goyf or Murktide (well other than it's way easier to deal with). Do you see how subjective arguments are meaningless currency in ban discussions?

100% not true, if you play the MU twice you notice that by having flying murktide gets checked by only those cards, this lets you ignore half of your opponent board, and by being an 8/8 you actually need to connect a few times to win, on the other and a tarmogoyf basically has no chance to do much because it gets both checked by fang and uro/land blockers

Some decks had their Goyf-free happy days...until reality caught up with them with the closed fist 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick. Welcome back to real legacy - I suggest you immediately revise your deck to pass the "don't die to Goyf" test.

But they often do, I have literally seen a monastery mentor board getting slammed by a murktide and a channeller, flying being relevant happens in most MUs, a lot also, do you think a land delver would have been the same impactful card?

Yeah the Goyf concept should not exist, I agree...but it does, and it's here to stay. That the concept of Goyf exists is exactly why a diverse range 3+ mana threats will always be teetering on unplayable. This really shouldn't surprise anyone who plays legacy.

By having flying you have less cards to build your deck on beating it, and by having less of them your opponent gets much more agency, and by killing you in two blows he can even take 1/2 -1 in cards and win

Yep like that is an accurate description of power creep, ending games before they begin. You can't ban power creep though, so....???

It means that you are not forced into splashing a third color to have a beatstick, which makes your deck insanely better

Plays into REB, Wasteland, green interaction, loses access to 3 color Prismatic Endings...There are pluses and minuses to 2c vs 3c; this is a pointless subjective tangent.

You seem to really like to live in the moment with your assessments. But like why would you even try to make a point out of color amounts? The UR Delver deck has zero say over whether or not it is relevant; one Wrenn or Oko or Lurrus printing and your 4x Volc is gonna look trashy af.

It dies to removal, lets not talk about how it does not die by bolt/ending/decay/submerge

Yeah and it was real fun when back in 2007-2011 [printing of SCM, the first anti-Goyf] they Duress'd your kill spell (of which almost no options existed) and you got killed by a Tarmoidiot without any real chance of recovery. For each removal spell you've listed which doesn't kill Murktide, there are at least two options in each color which do. People had to play dog crap like Smother back in the day to survive 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick.

Well, bug literally got removed from legacy by murktide, how rewarding

Yeah 20% of the format mono-cropping on Saga - definitely can't ever compete in colors that can support Pernicious Deed. Definitely can't possibly play the colors that can cast Plague Engineer vs Allosaurus Shepherd. Definitely can't play BUG when they just got the newest 3cmc PW you can't FoN. Murktide is not keeping BUG from being played; what you are describing is the mixture a Ragavan still being legal phenomenon + the failure to ever replace DRS (black has zero 1-drop dude replacements, unless their deck is called Hogaak or Madness).

This reasoning is actually next level, card x is ok because you too can play it, so lets unban ancestral recall because your opponent can also play it and go even

No, Ancestral drawing extra cards is closer to "pay 1 mana, take three extra turns." Also it breaks mulligan equity rules, which among other things is a huge color pie problem. As far as mono-U decks are concerned adding Murktide to their list is first and foremost "UU5 with delve that says: kill target opposing 8/8 Murktide," the backup mode is that it can win the game.

You actually somehow forgot to reply the last time you made an ad hominem on me this is a partial list of my tops, tell me why i should have a bias or what is the deck i play which is impacted by murktide.

You have a list of netdecks, which would explain why you've missed the importance of passing the "don't die to Goyf" test at deck construction. If your range of decks is struggling with Murktide, I suggest you go back and reformat them to answer 2 mana, over-stat'd, non-trample, summoning sick - this is a super important part of building a resilient legacy deck.

Since you want to cite your accomplishments, I think you should know that your most recent deck literally comes from my UR Dreadstill list handed to Ark4n with instructions about the problems of playing Ragavan with Standstill and Dreadnought. As far as copying me goes, you need to acknowledge that Allosaurus Shepherd and DnT exist with Grim Lavamancer and your SB is skinny on 2x Alpine Moon.

Literally, I simply test most decks and have seen that the card is probably the main reason why UR is busted (+ ragavan indeed), it takes playing the game to see that you can make a million counter arguments, but in the end it is unfair to play vs a deck that has a million removal checks in a row followed by and 8/8 flying

So the reason they're doing great with Murktide is that people forgot the need to build decks to not die to Goyf. It really sucks that this is what legacy deckbuilding is since 2007, but thems is the rules. In a perfect format we would ban Tarmogoyf + Murktide + Snapcaster + Ice-Fang + Strix + Uro all at the same time, and wotc would never explore these design space again, but that's just not going to happen.