View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #23521

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunseng View Post
    A Wasteland with "split second" would probably do the trick . As a more serious suggestion, I'd love a Suppression Field on a 2/2 blue Merfolk body for .
    It would need to be like a stifle that draws a card and has to be either free or 1cmc

  2. #23522

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    A stifle land would maybe do it. But parity isn't punishing imo.
    Like fatal push doesn't punish you playing creatures, or force of will for playing spells. Daze gets away with it because you can return a tapped land. Daze would be unplayable if you couldn't go T1:Island->spell->hold up daze.
    You need to lose the fetch and I need to gain something. With stifle it's tempo.

  3. #23523

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Lands are an easy and well-known way to make chase cards. There are also legitimate 'quality of game play' reasons to limit how easily people can mess with lands. I don't think that WotC has any real incentives to print effective fetch hate, but has strong incentives not to.

  4. #23524
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    It would need to be like a stifle that draws a card and has to be either free or 1cmc
    Just a Stifle that costs a phyrexian blue instead of just blue. That works OTD and should be good enough to see play enough to really push the fetches out.

  5. #23525

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Just a Stifle that costs a phyrexian blue instead of just blue. That works OTD and should be good enough to see play enough to really push the fetches out.
    Turn one dreadnought?
    Go ahead and fetch. I don't care anymore.

  6. #23526
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    They moved away from lands that don't tap for mana which does eliminate design space for the enchantment effects like Tabernacle or Glacial Chasm.
    Just a Land that said "Whenever a nonbasic Land enters the battlefield, it's controller may pay 2 life. If they don't, it enters the battlefield tapped."
    Give it Protection from Lands as well, because that's weird and why not.

    You'd need continuous effects, 1 for 1 like Stifle isn't good enough anymore. Hence the Grafdigger's Cage example. Effective turn 1 on the play that proactively punishes the strategy, is symmetrical so you can't just also jam the same strategy.

    So something that is a land or you can play off a basic land to make your basic only mana base on par with the 4 color greed piles.
    Seriously just Cage for lands, "Land cards in graveyards and libraries can't enter the battlefield." would be huge as a 1 drop.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  7. #23527
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Turn one dreadnought?
    Go ahead and fetch. I don't care anymore.
    Maybe adding "you don't control" would be a good idea :)

  8. #23528

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Maybe adding "you don't control" would be a good idea :)
    NO!

  9. #23529

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Whenever an opponent would shuffle, they instead put a card from their hand into their library and then shuffle.
    This would be a nice effect to also punish other tutors just like Leonin Arbiter does.

    They won't let cards attack the land base anymore before T3-4 or with replacement effects.
    Given that they have ramped up the frequency in which they print dual lands from 5+ per cycle/year to 5+ per set that makes sense because even Standard decks can now work without basics almost unpunished.
    I 'member when 5C control in Standard playing [card]Cruel Ultimatum[/card] and [card]Cloudthresher[/card] was considered an abomination.
    As most new chase cards are so undercosted/give so much instant advantage color is basically no resource anymore.
    In Legacy with actual hate and requirements for pitches basics and splashes are more restrictive even with access to duals and fetches although still very easy.
    Considering how much they refer to the color pie I'd like to see playing more colors an opportunity cost again.

  10. #23530

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Today's ban update didn't change anything in Legacy (just a Violent Outburst ban in Modern and a Ponder unrestriction in Vintage), but they did still make a comment on it, if anyone is interested:

    The Legacy format has changed slightly since we last checked in, mainly with the inclusion of Broadside Bombardiers in both Goblins and Red Prison decks. Control, combo, and tempo decks in addition to these updated red decks all jockey for position at the top of the metagame, giving players plenty of options to choose.

    Orcish Bowmasters has crept into many of the macro-strategies, featured in Delver of Secrets tempo variants, Sultai Control, and Reanimator. While the play rate of Orcish Bowmasters isn't quite at the level of format staples like Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will, it is something we're keeping an eye on. For the time being, we're happy with the fact that many different decks can win at the top levels of Legacy.

  11. #23531
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Ban update seems fair. Bowman is not oppressive. It's nice to have something nonblue that keeps blue card draw in check. The format feels diverse. 2 different monored decks are tier 1, so black and blue can't be that busted.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    You'd need continuous effects, 1 for 1 like Stifle isn't good enough anymore. Hence the Grafdigger's Cage example. Effective turn 1 on the play that proactively punishes the strategy, is symmetrical so you can't just also jam the same strategy.

    Seriously just Cage for lands, "Land cards in graveyards and libraries can't enter the battlefield." would be huge as a 1 drop.
    Root Maze
    Suppression Field
    Leonin Arbiter
    Opposition Agent
    Blood Sun
    Sorcerous Spyglass


    There are already turn 1 continuous effects that hate on fetches. The problem is you don't always have them in opening hand and you don't always win the die roll, so the other 70%+ of games they're able to fetch at least once first. Most fetch-dependent decks also run FoW.
    Last edited by FTW; 03-12-2024 at 11:04 AM.

  12. #23532
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Keeping an eye on the only playable card that can challenge Beanstalk effectively...despite knowing that Beanstalk is an absolute diversity killer (see also its modern ban)...

  13. #23533
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    FTW, only one of those costs 1 and none of them do what's needed.
    I agree with your points, and I'll say that historical examples of what hasn't worked aren't without use, not sure what your intention is with them now.
    My point is still, a 1CMC colorless effect is simple enough to be a benign turn 1 play that narrows the usefulness of lands outside of played from hand once per turn as a special action. IE, Grafdigger's Cage. Many decks the card has no text, but for unfair creature decks it's a problem card. We need the same card that hurts unfair land decks the same way, for the same cost. a 2 or 3 mana card has missed the window of use by an eternity.

    Regarding the B&R, I'm not surprised they didn't change anything. Played in the SCG 5k, played 8 rounds and faced Yorion D&T, Triumph Beans, Epic Gamble Storm, UB Scam/Tempo?, Doomsday, UG Shardless, Sticker Goblins, Monored Painter+Cauldron/Devourer. That's 8 rounds, 8 unique decks. Many had Brainstorm and Force of Will, but their use was each different and the play was never stale. Gold Standard for format health in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  14. #23534
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    A colorless 1cmc effect is clearly better and easier to use. But those 2-3cmc cards are castable turn 1 OTP. The decks that play them aim to cast them as early as turn 1 (using mana accel). Same window of use.

    Those decks never break tier 2, because those cards make bad topdecks all the times you don't get to jam turn 1 on the play (not in opening hand, lost die roll, opponent countered it).

    Years ago, I spent a while trying to push Suppression Field stompy (turn 1-able with 4 Mox 4 Petal, like Initiative decks), but those decks were never good. Even current Initiative decks don't bother playing it.

  15. #23535

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Are people running rootmaze?

  16. #23536
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Are people running rootmaze?
    Weirdo Stasis petdecks run it, don't know anybody else
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  17. #23537
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    A colorless 1cmc effect is clearly better and easier to use. But those 2-3cmc cards are castable turn 1 OTP. The decks that play them aim to cast them as early as turn 1 (using mana accel). Same window of use.

    Those decks never break tier 2, because those cards make bad topdecks all the times you don't get to jam turn 1 on the play (not in opening hand, lost die roll, opponent countered it).
    The argument is a bit weird: these cards are so powerful played T1 that whole archetypes were built to make them playable T1. The trouble is not that they are so bad topdeck themselves, it is that trying to make them playable T1 make you play a lot of additional bad topdecks: Mox chrome, ssg, lotus Petal, sollands, etc.

    If there was written "card type" instead of "card name" on pithing needle, it would be totally maindeckable by its ability to shut off fetches and wasteland plus random hit on planeswalkers, creatures or artefacts.

  18. #23538
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    The argument is a bit weird: these cards are so powerful played T1 that whole archetypes were built to make them playable T1. The trouble is not that they are so bad topdeck themselves, it is that trying to make them playable T1 make you play a lot of additional bad topdecks: Mox chrome, ssg, lotus Petal, sollands, etc.
    Whole archetypes/brews were attempted, but never made Tier 1-1.5. Archetypes were attempted because the effects seemed theoretically strong T1. In practice, the decks didn't live up to potential.

    Suppression Field and Leonin Arbiter and Root Maze are bad topdecks. Getting them T2 OTD or later is awkward. 4x Sorcerous Spyglass makes for bad topdecks.

    Is the acceleration the problem? Other archetypes with that acceleration are Tier 1. That suggests Suppression Field & friends are not actually as powerful as theory, but other cards are.

    A tier 2 deck tries to cheese T1 Opposition Agent (Ritual, Mox, Sol lands). Still, Black stompy often ends up cutting Agent. They have good chances of hating fetches T1, but they still prefer to accelerate other things.

  19. #23539
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Whole archetypes/brews were attempted, but never made Tier 1-1.5. Archetypes were attempted because the effects seemed theoretically strong T1. In practice, the decks didn't live up to potential.

    Suppression Field and Leonin Arbiter and Root Maze are bad topdecks. Getting them T2 OTD or later is awkward. 4x Sorcerous Spyglass makes for bad topdecks.

    Is the acceleration the problem? Other archetypes with that acceleration are Tier 1. That suggests Suppression Field & friends are not actually as powerful as theory, but other cards are.

    A tier 2 deck tries to cheese T1 Opposition Agent (Ritual, Mox, Sol lands). Still, Black stompy often ends up cutting Agent. They have good chances of hating fetches T1, but they still prefer to accelerate other things.
    Yes, if you optimize your deck to have 3 manas T1, you can find more powerful things to do than hating on fetches. If I play dark ritual I don't want to play fair. It doesn't mean that at 1 mana a good fetch+ hate wouldn't be good.
    Otherwise it is a bit like saying brainstorm would not be a great card, because brainstone isn't (that is a bit of a caricature).

  20. #23540

    Re: MTG Online Cards All Pack 2024

    Oh no
    Last edited by H; 03-14-2024 at 08:55 AM.

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