All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

I think the "Let's discuss what to unban" comment is more akin to "We all know Legacy is unhealthy, hey look a distraction!".

What to unban is agreed on. Twist, Earthcraft, Recruiter. Each would do very little. Conversation basicly agreed by all and is now over. Sure, some debate the details on a card or two, but it's really a topic most of us can agree on.

I don't want to sound like a dick, though I am one, but it feels like a political argument. You point out something is wrong and then someone, in place of fixing or discussing the issue you bring up says something dumb like "Yea but you want to do X!' Yes, I do what to do X but what the fuck does that have to do with getting potholes in my road fixed or whatever the original topic was? I don't give a fuck that you don't like my view on economics, stop changing the topic and fix the fucking road.

Legacy has real issues with homogeneity, with the same core of cards forcing the same repeat play pattern out of "Different" decks. Each of these "different" decks doing exactly the same thing; filter to find the plan or the answer. Its not limited to just blue though, Stompy all do the same thing too, try and stop you playing, be that Moon, Chalice or 3ball.

I would argue that there is really as much difference between Grixis Delver and 4c Control as there is between Solider Stompy and Eldrazi. Sure, some of the cards are different but they run on the same core principles and from 30,000 feet it all looks like mid western grain field regardless of what's planted.

Everyone is doing the same fucking shit. Unbanning anything that is mundane enough to come off the list will change nothing and unbanning something actually impactful will likely cause more issues than it's worth. But sure, let's talk about unbannings, everything is fine with everyone doing the same fucking shit over and over.

God I miss when the card I hated the most was High Tide. Seems really fucking quaint now.

[Erdvermampfa]

I like how this thread gets so much attention now that the next B&R announcements are approaching quickly. It appears almost as if people were trying to shape public opinion on these matters....

[Dice_Box]

I like how this thread gets so much attention now that the next B&R announcements are approaching quickly. It appears almost as if people were trying to shape public opinion on these matters....

Whatever choice was going to be made was made ages ago. We learnt this when the Shop's restrictions where happening in Vintage. A bunch of articles came out two weeks before the announcement, shit was hit and Wizards said "We had already made the choice before you made your points". Right now, whatever happening next week (No changes) is a choice already decided on. Nothing we say here means a thing. Makes us feel better though.

[Hanni]

Just as a point of reference, I'm not in the anti-ban camp of Brainstorm because of technical play. I'm in the anti-ban camp because I enjoy casting Brainstorm. It's really as simple as that.

My general anti-ban stance, though, is because I feel that the only time things should be getting banned in Legacy is when they are broken and format warping. I don't believe any cards in the format are broken and format warping.

My biggest pet peeve in this thread is that people always want something banned. Even if you ban DRS, they'll be right back in here asking for the next thing. Even if you ban Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe, TNN, Delver... they'll still find the next best thing they want banned. It's a vicious never ending cycle, and if WotC catered to those people, we'd be left with a format at the power level of Modern.

At that point, what is the purpose of the Legacy format? Effectively, Legacy would be dead. Why play Legacy, when you could play a less expensive and better supported format? The identity of Legacy is defined by the power level and efficiency of the cards available. When Legacy evolves into what Vintage is, I'd most likely switch sides (to the ban camp), but we're not even close to that yet.

And didn't Maverick just Top 8 a massive GP? Considering the saturation of the field playing Grixis Delver and Czech Pile compared to the significantly smaller number of players playing Maverick, I think the bigger issue lies with people's perception of what is viable. Clearly, Maverick is still a competitively viable deck. It gets annoying hearing people regurgitate the same spew over and over, that only decks with Brainstorm and DRS are viable. More people playing Brainstorm + DRS = more copies of decks with them making Top 8. Brainstorm + DRS is certainly Tier 1, but it's not the only competitive or viable option available.

I'd love to see the day 1 metagame breakdown from GP Seattle...

[taconaut]

There have been some great posts in here lately, love it.

I don't people want a specific meta back so much as the idea of playing a format where their opponent actually has to have a deck that "does something." The essence of the frustration with legacy probably has more to do with the success of the no-strategy 'play the best cards' decks. I would put Delver variants, Czech Pile/Shardless/UWx Blade/good stuff pile [same deck, different colors], and miracles (I think Miracles is categoricall different from the various pile strats) all in that no-strategy category together. There really isn't much to disrupt in decks like these; you deal with one best card and another follows....and it really doesn't matter what order they draw their cast-able* cards in because the power level is raw rather than predicated upon an idea of "A then B," "A plus B," or synergistic restrictions.

So while it would be nice to reacquire a format where strategic deck construction necessitates internal consistency liabilities which turn into combos, when correctly sequenced; it just isn't a reasonable expectation. To expand on that for a moment look at maverick....none of this is "good" because the sequence is easy identify and disrupt.

...but it is kind of what the format deserves until such a time that playing limited-style magic (i.e. run good cards into each other until someone runs out) with legacy cards stops being the surest path to tier one.

You post is actually the perfect argument for why banning cantrips won't make anything better for people who like synergy - if your deck hangs on particular, unique, powerful interactions between cards, banning cantrips just diminishes the odds that they come together. If there's no way to ensure that you get your A+B, the best thing to do is just run all the best C's you can find (aka, play Czech pile type decks).

I just yearn for the days when legacy top 8's felt diverse rather than the diversity simply coming by saying, oh well this deck is different from delver because instead of delver and dazes it runs leovold and KCommand. Just look at the most recent Modern Open Top 8. 7/8 decks (maybe 6/8 if you consider Jeskai Control and Blue Moon to be too similar) have pretty unique strategies. You can trash modern for having boring (subjective) gameplay, but you certainly can't say it isn't a diverse format.

Well, for one, I think the difference between Daze + Delver and Leovold +KCommand is real and meaningful, but I know that doesn't make it any more palatable for you if you don't.

To address the Modern Top 8:

GR Eldrazi
Burn
Affinity
Jeskai Control
Humans
Blue Moon
Scapeshift
Eldrazi Tron

This actually does look decently diverse, so I'll concede that point; I guess for me, I just don't want to play any of these decks (except maybe the Jeskai Control deck?). I feel like modern used to involve cooler things than what's available here. I guess I just want to acknowledge that there may be more interaction in modern than I'm giving it credit for, I just still don't like the decks.

To return to one of my earlier points, why not just play Modern, then? it seems to have what you want?

Skimming through the last few pages this jumped out at me for being probably the most objectively wrong thing said.
Modern is way more diverse now than it was when Twin and Pod were legal.
You have the freedom to do way more 'ton of different things' now than you did when you could just lose the game by tapping out on turn 3-4.

'ton of different things' and 'decks were powerful and could interact' usually don't go hand in hand
Delver/Twin are powerful and can interact but they put a serious limit on 'ton of different things'

On the other hand this post from taconaut is actually good:

I guess I just don't put quite as much of a premium on diversity? I feel like a lot of modern decks have different named cards, but by and large are just trying to ignore each other while they beat down with either little guys or big guys. Then, the decks that don't do that just feel neutered and inelegant (the big one for me is UR storm, with its eight electromancers. That deck used to be so pretty before they introduced goblin electromancer and banned all the rituals and cantrips). I know Twin was very good, and it's very possible you were more of a competitive modern player than I was, but I feel like the twin issue is frequently overstated.

Thanks for the nod on the other thing, though!

Legacy has real issues with homogeneity, with the same core of cards forcing the same repeat play pattern out of "Different" decks. Each of these "different" decks doing exactly the same thing; filter to find the plan or the answer. Its not limited to just blue though, Stompy all do the same thing too, try and stop you playing, be that Moon, Chalice or 3ball.

I would argue that there is really as much difference between Grixis Delver and 4c Control as there is between Solider Stompy and Eldrazi. Sure, some of the cards are different but they run on the same core principles and from 30,000 feet it all looks like mid western grain field regardless of what's planted.

This sortof reads like "weary of Magic" more than "weary of Legacy" to me, though - Grixis/4CControl and Stompy/Eldrazi are both similar pairs, but those pairs differ significantly from each other, and each of those pairs differs from Elves, Storm, Taxes, SNT, etc. Fundamentally, there's only so much variance decks can have in Magic, and I feel like Legacy still captures the broadest spectrum of these archetypes of any competitive format (again, token acknowledgement that it doesn't really have a conventional agro deck).

[AznSeal]

Just as a point of reference, I'm not in the anti-ban camp of Brainstorm because of technical play. I'm in the anti-ban camp because I enjoy casting Brainstorm. It's really as simple as that.

My general anti-ban stance, though, is because I feel that the only time things should be getting banned in Legacy is when they are broken and format warping. I don't believe any cards in the format are broken and format warping.

My biggest pet peeve in this thread is that people always want something banned. Even if you ban DRS, they'll be right back in here asking for the next thing. Even if you ban Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe, TNN, Delver... they'll still find the next best thing they want banned. It's a vicious never ending cycle, and if WotC catered to those people, we'd be left with a format at the power level of Modern.

At that point, what is the purpose of the Legacy format? Effectively, Legacy would be dead. Why play Legacy, when you could play a less expensive and better supported format? The identity of Legacy is defined by the power level and efficiency of the cards available. When Legacy evolves into what Vintage is, I'd most likely switch sides (to the ban camp), but we're not even close to that yet.

And didn't Maverick just Top 8 a massive GP? Considering the saturation of the field playing Grixis Delver and Czech Pile compared to the significantly smaller number of players playing Maverick, I think the bigger issue lies with people's perception of what is viable. Clearly, Maverick is still a competitively viable deck. It gets annoying hearing people regurgitate the same spew over and over, that only decks with Brainstorm and DRS are viable. More people playing Brainstorm + DRS = more copies of decks with them making Top 8. Brainstorm + DRS is certainly Tier 1, but it's not the only competitive or viable option available.

I'd love to see the day 1 metagame breakdown from GP Seattle...

I agree with much of what you said. Disclaimer: I’m not a blue player, i play elves. It’s no secret that DRS + cantrips is probably the best deck. The question is if the deck is so much better than other decks. You can look at top 8s or day 2 % and try to make a conclusion but I don’t think it paints the entire picture. Is it over-represented because it’s overpowered or is it ove- represented because people like playing that style of decks? Pretend miracles has a power level of 8, elves has a level of 7, DNT is 6.5, etc. Is grixis really a 10+ or is it simply a 8.5 but with more people liking it? Also some spikes will play the best deck regardless of how small the edge is. If a grixis or Czech deck is 8.5 but lands is 8.2 (arbitrary numbers, I know), 8/10 will still play the blue deck. This will lead to it being over-represented relative to actual power level. This cycle self-perpetuates a couple of times and sooner or later, people have a skewed view of “best deck” vs “OP deck”.

[non-inflammable]

My biggest pet peeve in this thread is that people always want something banned.

That is such a shill comment and should be corrected every time someone posts up such garbage.

This entire thread (with a few random WTF moments) is only about brainstorm. It will always be about brainstorm.
It will forever be about brainstorm and how legacy is a 56 card format plus 4 brainstorm.

This is not about "all cantrips", it's not about your main phase brainstorm (really?) and it's not skillfully intense to draw 3 at instant speed...
If WOTC comes out and says brainstorm will never be banned, then I'm with the ban deathrite camp.

#don't be a shill for brainstorm

[Lemnear]

Is it over-represented because it’s overpowered or is it ove- represented because people like playing that style of decks?

I am convinced the answer to that question is comparing metagame share and T8/T16 percentage of a bunch of major tournaments and look if the deck constantly over- or underperforms.

[AznSeal]

I am convinced the answer to that question is comparing metagame share and T8/T16 percentage of a bunch of major tournaments and look if the deck constantly over- or underperforms.

I wish we had the full meta data. But by looking at recent trends of top 64 -> top 32 -> top 16 -> top 8 conversion, it seems like lands has the best conversion rate. Czech, grixis delver, and miracles are close behind. Just for this tournament, there were 12 Grixis Delvers in the top 64 but 3 made top 16 and 2 made top 8. There were 8 Czech piles in the in the top 64 and 4 made top 16 with 1 making top 8. Miracles had 7 in the top 64, 2 in top 16, and 2 in top 8. Lands had 3 in the top 64, 2 in top 16, and 1 in top 8. It seems like Miracles and lands are just as competitive as some of the other blue-DRS decks, but people just don't play them.

[Hanni]

That is such a shill comment and should be corrected every time someone posts up such garbage.

This entire thread (with a few random WTF moments) is only about brainstorm. It will always be about brainstorm.
It will forever be about brainstorm and how legacy is a 56 card format plus 4 brainstorm.

This is not about "all cantrips", it's not about your main phase brainstorm (really?) and it's not skillfully intense to draw 3 at instant speed...
If WOTC comes out and says brainstorm will never be banned, then I'm with the ban deathrite camp.

#don't be a shill for brainstorm

Is it? If that were the case, then why are we discussing DRS right now? And why were we discussing Sensei's Divining Top last year?

If the topic was only ever Brainstorm, I'd concede the point. Brainstorm is certainly the most powerful card in the format, and if we should discuss banning anything, the discussion should be solely about Brainstorm. Yet here we are, talking about DRS, Probe, and TNN, among other things.

So no, it's not a shill comment, because even if Brainstorm were banned during the next B&R, there would still be tons of people in here complaining to ban the next most powerful thing.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

What are some cards that will never come off that you guys think would actually not be too bad? I really don't think Tinker would be outrageously OP. Is Tinker+Artifact really that much better than Entomb/discard+reanimate or even Show and Tell+Big Guy?

[Lemnear]

I wish we had the full meta data. But by looking at recent trends of top 64 -> top 32 -> top 16 -> top 8 conversion, it seems like lands has the best conversion rate. Czech, grixis delver, and miracles are close behind. Just for this tournament, there were 12 Grixis Delvers in the top 64 but 3 made top 16 and 2 made top 8. There were 8 Czech piles in the in the top 64 and 4 made top 16 with 1 making top 8. Miracles had 7 in the top 64, 2 in top 16, and 2 in top 8. Lands had 3 in the top 64, 2 in top 16, and 1 in top 8. It seems like Miracles and lands are just as competitive as some of the other blue-DRS decks, but people just don't play them.

I feel like us willingly missing the bigger picture, if we pretend that all the Delver+DRS piles are somewhat different decks, just because they play 3,5c or 4c, decide to run Pyromancer instead of Goyf, etc.

With that being said, I would want to go a step further and throwing in the hypothese, that Czech pile & Co are a mere natural evolution of the old "Deathblade" goodstuff decks we have since 2013, just with the Stoneblade package and Plows replaced.

[AznSeal]

What are some cards that will never come off that you guys think would actually not be too bad? I really don't think Tinker would be outrageously OP. Is Tinker+Artifact really that much better than Entomb/discard+reanimate or even Show and Tell+Big Guy?

Tinker is a 1 card combo. At least Show and Tell requires 4 slots for Show and Tell and 6-8 slots for fatties. Tinker + fatty takes up 5 slots. Do you really want a format where you can potentially turn 1: Seat of Synod, Mox Opal, Lotus Petal, Tinker, Blightsteel or more realistically turn 2 Ancient tomb + Seat of Synod + Tinker? The deck can afford to run better protection as well because your slots aren't clogged up by Griselbrand or Emmy.

[Dice_Box]

What are some cards that will never come off that you guys think would actually not be too bad? I really don't think Tinker would be outrageously OP. Is Tinker+Artifact really that much better than Entomb/discard+reanimate or even Show and Tell+Big Guy?

In a word, yes. Show and Tell/Target is at least two card combo, Tinker is a one card combo with whatever Mox you used to cast it. Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox hell even a Artifact Land...

[Fjaulnir]

...and your opponent doesn't get to put in a free uncounterable O Ring or whatever either.

[Lemnear]

Tinker is a 1 card combo. At least Show and Tell requires 4 slots for Show and Tell and 6-8 slots for fatties. Tinker + fatty takes up 5 slots. Do you really want a format where you can potentially turn 1: Seat of Synod, Mox Opal, Lotus Petal, Tinker, Blightsteel or more realistically turn 2 Ancient tomb + Seat of Synod + Tinker? The deck can afford to run better protection as well because your slots aren't clogged up by Griselbrand or Emmy.

Absolutely correct. I am sure Tinker has killed more player in Vintage than Morphling, Tendrils and Psychatog combined

[kirtar]

Tinker seems more in line with Flash than Show and Tell since any deck that wants to play tinker is also has virtually 100% chance of having an available artifact to sacrifice.

[PirateKing]

So what is the medium spice level of cards to consider coming off the list?
If we all agree that Mind Twist is poopah bland, and Tinker is so spicy it will literally kill you, what are the cards that get debate?

As long as (ironically) DRS is around how is Survival such a taboo card?

[Mr. Safety]

So what is the medium spice level of cards to consider coming off the list?
If we all agree that Mind Twist is poopah bland, and Tinker is so spicy it will literally kill you, what are the cards that get debate?

As long as (ironically) DRS is around how is Survival such a taboo card?

I would put Frantic Search and Memory Jar in between Twist and Tinker. They aren't bland, but they also aren't broken like Tinker. Both require specific deck-building guidelines, with ensuing opportunity costs, to be effective. Wheel of Fortune is closer to Tinker, but still not as spicy.

Survival's real enemy wouldn't even be DRS, honestly. Scavenging Ooze, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace; all of their stock goes way up if Survival ever sees an unban. I wasn't that familiar with the intricacies of legacy when Survival was banned. On the surface it seems manageable, but others would have a better understanding of how good Survival would be in the current environment.

[BKclassic]

Sensei's Divining Top. Grixis Tempo wasn't optimized during the reign of Miracles and there would be more than one wildly overpowered 1-drop to choose from.