View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 988 of 1178 FirstFirst ... 48888893897898498598698798898999099199299810381088 ... LastLast
Results 19,741 to 19,760 of 23542

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19741

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Lemnear, I am really coming around to your point of view on this. This most recent banning drives this point home even more. I am reiterating here...Without fetchies, Brainstorm would also be a much weakened card. Add to that the recent discussion of how many different lands would feel more useful if we aren't always fetching for basic land types. Over time it seems like the price tag of duals would ease some - perhaps even a lot, as players begin to see value in non-traditional mana bases.

    You get to keep the fun cards that have hitherto been havoc on Legacy while pruning their effect, and you reduce the barrier for entry. Is there a downside to this plan?
    I'd love to see fetches banned. I just know arguing for that is pointless because it's not going to happen.

  2. #19742
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,572

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I still don't see why people think banning fetches means dual prices go down. I've yet to see a logical argument. Yes other land cycles see play, but still none of them before you Max out on duals in actually optimized decks
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  3. #19743
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Lemnear, I am really coming around to your point of view on this. This most recent banning drives this point home even more. I am reiterating here...Without fetchies, Brainstorm would also be a much weakened card. Add to that the recent discussion of how many different lands would feel more useful if we aren't always fetching for basic land types. Over time it seems like the price tag of duals would ease some - perhaps even a lot, as players begin to see value in non-traditional mana bases.

    You get to keep the fun cards that have hitherto been havoc on Legacy while pruning their effect, and you reduce the barrier for entry. Is there a downside to this plan?
    I am convinced this would solve a lot of problems as well. True duals go up in price but it opens up tons of dual lands for the format, 'fixes' brainstorm, the delve mechanic (somewhat), and spending 10+ minutes in every round due to shuffling.

    Deathrite without a reliable mana producing ability makes it basically unplayable for grixis/pile. There is more efficient grave hate and better threats without stretching a now unreliable mana base without fetches. We literally get Drs and top back with fair levels of power.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  4. #19744
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2007
    Location

    Italy, Eternal
    Posts

    1,848

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think TC would remain banned, however top, drs and DTT would be perfectly fine.

    It would also ban ancestral from the format, god willing

  5. #19745

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I still don't see why people think banning fetches means dual prices go down. I've yet to see a logical argument. Yes other land cycles see play, but still none of them before you Max out on duals in actually optimized decks
    I think you are getting hung up on the price-point of duals. I don't think most of the reasonable players are arguing that banning fetches will make the price of duals cheaper. If it does, great, but I don't think that's the expectation. I think the argument is that a gap in power will be somewhat bridged by removing basic land types from the equation. This allows at least a few cycles of lands currently unplayed in the format to become actual considerations for decks in legacy.

    The reserve list price spikes are a different conversation and to be expected due to the nature of collectibles.

  6. #19746
    Member
    Barook's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    Germany, Germering, Munich
    Posts

    7,491

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm neutral about banning fetches:

    - Duals would definitely go up due to higher demand. The only way I could see this move being sustainable would be banning the original Duals as well. WotC could still shit out Commander/multiplayer-related duals on a regular basis to make loads of cash.
    - Gameplay would definitely speed up alot due to alot less shuffling.
    - The powerlevel of certain cards would be alot more reasonable. I'm not too sure about Wasteland and especially Blood Moon in a format that can easily power out Moon on T1 with no fetches for basics around, though.

  7. #19747
    Foreign Black Border
    Lord_Mcdonalds's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2012
    Location

    Houston, Texas
    Posts

    753

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Sounds like a net negative other than the shuffling aspect

    Lets ban 20 cards to save...like 5
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  8. #19748
    Member
    Barook's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    Germany, Germering, Munich
    Posts

    7,491

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Sounds like a net negative other than the shuffling aspect

    Lets ban 20 cards to save...like 5
    I forgot to mention that blue would still be the best color, simply because cantrips would still enable you to find the correct mana more easily than other decks.

  9. #19749

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I still don't see why people think banning fetches means dual prices go down. I've yet to see a logical argument. Yes other land cycles see play, but still none of them before you Max out on duals in actually optimized decks
    Because at that point we all sell out of magic and there won't be any demand for them...

  10. #19750

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Mistook context

  11. #19751
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Lemnear, I am really coming around to your point of view on this. This most recent banning drives this point home even more. I am reiterating here...Without fetchies, Brainstorm would also be a much weakened card. Add to that the recent discussion of how many different lands would feel more useful if we aren't always fetching for basic land types. Over time it seems like the price tag of duals would ease some - perhaps even a lot, as players begin to see value in non-traditional mana bases.

    You get to keep the fun cards that have hitherto been havoc on Legacy while pruning their effect, and you reduce the barrier for entry. Is there a downside to this plan?
    I can't claim I saw the effect it would potentially have on the viability on other variants of Duals like filter lands, so whoever brought it up in context of a Fetchland ban has my thanks.

    Countless cards in Legacy and the banlist thrive solely though the effects of...
    1) 0cc - shuffle chaff away...
    2) 0cc - avoid wasteland/bloodmoom by accessing your 1-2 basics...
    3) 0cc - free fill for your graveyard...
    4) 0cc - access any color you want without the drawbacks of Gemstone Mine or City of Brass...
    ...which Fetchlands provide, while we all bitched about Probes "0cc - look at target players hand" as unbalanced or outright unfair.

    Brainstorm is just the tip of the iceberg. Even Ponder gets drastically worse if you can't cherrypick a card and shuffle, but have to keep/draw all 3. Treasure Cruise gets nerfed twice: Once by the removal of Fetchlands themselves and second by making cantrips themselves less desirable mechanically without the shuffle. List goes on and on.

    I dunno if there is a downside aside WotC not caring anyways and the backlash of the people who want to keep their Xerox shell and just want the format to be "reset" every few years.

    It's actually funny that WotC neutered all 3 top tier strategies which conquered Legacy since 2012: Miracles, DRS goodstuff and Delve. Guess we are back at RUG Delver vs Team America vs Stoneforge?
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  12. #19752
    Member
    Barook's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    Germany, Germering, Munich
    Posts

    7,491

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    It's actually funny that WotC neutered all 3 top tier strategies which conquered Legacy since 2012: Miracles, DRS goodstuff and Delve. Guess we are back at RUG Delver vs Team America vs Stoneforge?
    If they just went back a few months further to hit Delver as well, we would be almost golden (kinda misses Griselbrand, too). Things have gone to shit starting with Delver while 2012 introduced some extremely toxic elements to the format (Griselbrand, Terminus, DRS).

  13. #19753
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    If they just went back a few months further to hit Delver as well, we would be almost golden (kinda misses Griselbrand, too). Things have gone to shit starting with Delver while 2012 introduced some extremely toxic elements to the format (Griselbrand, Terminus, DRS).
    Yeah, good reminder and i am with you here. We need to push this next. Where to sign up, mate?
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  14. #19754
    Foreign Black Border
    Lord_Mcdonalds's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2012
    Location

    Houston, Texas
    Posts

    753

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    I forgot to mention that blue would still be the best color, simply because cantrips would still enable you to find the correct mana more easily than other decks.
    Sounds great, I hate it when people play colors other than blue, really cramps my style.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  15. #19755
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,572

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    If they just went back a few months further to hit Delver as well, we would be almost golden (kinda misses Griselbrand, too). Things have gone to shit starting with Delver while 2012 introduced some extremely toxic elements to the format (Griselbrand, Terminus, DRS).
    I think Tempo needs Delver to stay relevant at this point. Griselbrand is a whole other story. I am somewhat worried about the card because it might push non blue decks out just because a resolved Griselbrand is GG very often for a blue deck that can draw into a force with ease.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  16. #19756
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,413

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Now this is the B&R thread we've all come to know and love. We haven't even had the current ban come into effect and we are already planning the umpteen subsequent bans we need.

    Reminds me of something that (I think it was) BrassMan said over at TMD. That no one wants to discuss the actual current card pool, only hypothetical future card pools...

    How far can we go? Can we push the limit? What about the next 10 bans? Can we ban cards before they exist? Lets think outside the box everybody, this shit now is small potatoes. Lets push BIG ROCKS.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  17. #19757
    Foreign Black Border
    Lord_Mcdonalds's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2012
    Location

    Houston, Texas
    Posts

    753

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It’s because they didn’t ban the fetchlands, whoms crime of making manabases streamlined and certain cards much better is an affront to magic players around the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  18. #19758

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    About banning fetches people haven't mentioned one of the most important things. It cuts out chances for cheating. There is much less picking up decks and manipulating them. Many of the big cheaters in the last years where made possible by fetches being in standard.

    For that and the saved time shuffling and cutting alone I would be all for them going away.

  19. #19759

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Just in general I think we should ban everything until Zoo and Rock are both playable again.

  20. #19760
    Foreign Black Border
    Lord_Mcdonalds's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2012
    Location

    Houston, Texas
    Posts

    753

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Prime View Post
    About banning fetches people haven't mentioned one of the most important things. It cuts out chances for cheating. There is much less picking up decks and manipulating them. Many of the big cheaters in the last years where made possible by fetches being in standard.

    For that and the saved time shuffling and cutting alone I would be all for them going away.
    Cheaters will cheat no matter what. Some more blatantly than others. Banning fetches will not change that.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 226 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 226 guests)