Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
I still don't see why people think banning fetches means dual prices go down. I've yet to see a logical argument. Yes other land cycles see play, but still none of them before you Max out on duals in actually optimized decks
I am convinced this would solve a lot of problems as well. True duals go up in price but it opens up tons of dual lands for the format, 'fixes' brainstorm, the delve mechanic (somewhat), and spending 10+ minutes in every round due to shuffling.
Deathrite without a reliable mana producing ability makes it basically unplayable for grixis/pile. There is more efficient grave hate and better threats without stretching a now unreliable mana base without fetches. We literally get Drs and top back with fair levels of power.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I think TC would remain banned, however top, drs and DTT would be perfectly fine.
It would also ban ancestral from the format, god willing
I think you are getting hung up on the price-point of duals. I don't think most of the reasonable players are arguing that banning fetches will make the price of duals cheaper. If it does, great, but I don't think that's the expectation. I think the argument is that a gap in power will be somewhat bridged by removing basic land types from the equation. This allows at least a few cycles of lands currently unplayed in the format to become actual considerations for decks in legacy.
The reserve list price spikes are a different conversation and to be expected due to the nature of collectibles.
I'm neutral about banning fetches:
- Duals would definitely go up due to higher demand. The only way I could see this move being sustainable would be banning the original Duals as well. WotC could still shit out Commander/multiplayer-related duals on a regular basis to make loads of cash.
- Gameplay would definitely speed up alot due to alot less shuffling.
- The powerlevel of certain cards would be alot more reasonable. I'm not too sure about Wasteland and especially Blood Moon in a format that can easily power out Moon on T1 with no fetches for basics around, though.
Mistook context
I can't claim I saw the effect it would potentially have on the viability on other variants of Duals like filter lands, so whoever brought it up in context of a Fetchland ban has my thanks.
Countless cards in Legacy and the banlist thrive solely though the effects of...
1) 0cc - shuffle chaff away...
2) 0cc - avoid wasteland/bloodmoom by accessing your 1-2 basics...
3) 0cc - free fill for your graveyard...
4) 0cc - access any color you want without the drawbacks of Gemstone Mine or City of Brass...
...which Fetchlands provide, while we all bitched about Probes "0cc - look at target players hand" as unbalanced or outright unfair.
Brainstorm is just the tip of the iceberg. Even Ponder gets drastically worse if you can't cherrypick a card and shuffle, but have to keep/draw all 3. Treasure Cruise gets nerfed twice: Once by the removal of Fetchlands themselves and second by making cantrips themselves less desirable mechanically without the shuffle. List goes on and on.
I dunno if there is a downside aside WotC not caring anyways and the backlash of the people who want to keep their Xerox shell and just want the format to be "reset" every few years.
It's actually funny that WotC neutered all 3 top tier strategies which conquered Legacy since 2012: Miracles, DRS goodstuff and Delve. Guess we are back at RUG Delver vs Team America vs Stoneforge?
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I think Tempo needs Delver to stay relevant at this point. Griselbrand is a whole other story. I am somewhat worried about the card because it might push non blue decks out just because a resolved Griselbrand is GG very often for a blue deck that can draw into a force with ease.
Now this is the B&R thread we've all come to know and love. We haven't even had the current ban come into effect and we are already planning the umpteen subsequent bans we need.
Reminds me of something that (I think it was) BrassMan said over at TMD. That no one wants to discuss the actual current card pool, only hypothetical future card pools...
How far can we go? Can we push the limit? What about the next 10 bans? Can we ban cards before they exist? Lets think outside the box everybody, this shit now is small potatoes. Lets push BIG ROCKS.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
About banning fetches people haven't mentioned one of the most important things. It cuts out chances for cheating. There is much less picking up decks and manipulating them. Many of the big cheaters in the last years where made possible by fetches being in standard.
For that and the saved time shuffling and cutting alone I would be all for them going away.
Just in general I think we should ban everything until Zoo and Rock are both playable again.
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