All B/R update speculation.

[FTW]

Describing Unmask on legs as a "turn 0 non-game unfair mechanic" is laughable. No one even played it for the first year it was legal.

False, Grief saw many 5-0s and some Legacy Challenge results since the first week it was printed.

It started as Bx Grief scam with junk like Malakir Rebirth, Ephemerate, etc. The problem is those enablers are obviously worse when you don't have Grief, so the deck suffered from variance and wasn't winning large events. But then Grief quickly made it's way into BR Reanimator, which stayed Tier 1 for a long while.

For UB scam the missing piece was something else to Reanimate. Since Troll was printed, UB Scaminator became oppressive. Well before Frog. Frog pushed the deck over the top, but it was already dumb.

Losing the die roll, mulling to 5-6, then having your best 2 cards stripped absolutely leads to non-games. It's a high variance scenario, but still a flaw in the game, uninteractive play pattern.

It is the thing you are trying to pretend banning Frog would be while Frog is an almost impossible to answer low cost perpetual CA engine that notably, does not fucking die to Bolt

Didn't say Frog dies to Bolt. I said Bob dies to Bolt.

What's Bob? Also a 2 cmc perpetual CA creature. Back when people were calling for Bob bans, the counterargument was "dies to Bolt". Even though it was too power-crept for its time and saw wide play, it was still a 2 cmc creature you need to untap with that dies to removal. That at least leads to interactive play patterns.

Like Goyf, it was too powerful for its time, but still a 2cmc creature you need to untap. They never found that bannable. Frog is basically power-crept Bob (default 2 mana CA creature), like Murktide is power-crept Goyf (default 2 mana big thing). Murktide is also dumb, but they're not banning it. Sudden Edict and Pyroblast answer both on tempo, and without Grief those can see more play.

[FTW]

To be clear, Reanimate is the real obvious problem card. I mean there’s compounding variables but the part where they undercosted a card by three whole mana is, as usual when such is the case, the actual issue that will keep causing problems until they ban it. “Turn 1 double Unmask” was never even the worst of the problems with the card.

Well Reanimate was always unfair, but you could normally fight it with Surgical Extraction, Endurance, Faerie Macabre, Force of Negation etc., and you weren't getting turn 1ed unless they spent cards on fast mana.

The timing of Grief means no fast mana needed and you're on FoW, Leyline, or bust. And if you mull to 3 for Leyline, they play 4 lands and cast Grief. Reanimator normally can't do those things.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Double unmask is 4 cards, double grief is 3 and a body. They're not the same things and anyone comparing the two is very bad for the game

[PirateKing]

Didn't say Frog dies to Bolt. I said Bob dies to Bolt.

What's Bob? Also a 2 cmc perpetual CA creature. Back when people were calling for Bob bans, the counterargument was "dies to Bolt". Even though it was too power-crept for its time and saw wide play, it was still a 2 cmc creature you need to untap with that dies to removal. That at least leads to interactive play patterns.

Like Goyf, it was too powerful for its time, but still a 2cmc creature you need to untap. They never found that bannable. Frog is basically power-crept Bob (default 2 mana CA creature), like Murktide is power-crept Goyf (default 2 mana big thing). Murktide is also dumb, but they're not banning it. Sudden Edict and Pyroblast answer both on tempo, and without Grief those can see more play.

Can we unban Dreadhorde Arcanist then?

Or how many graveyard abuses must we suffer before Deathrite Shaman is the only maindeckable police of the mechanic that ever had success?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Double unmask is 4 cards, double grief is 3 and a body. They're not the same things and anyone comparing the two is very bad for the game

It’s genuinely cute how many ways you managed to find to fuck up your clapback

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well Reanimate was always unfair, but you could normally fight it with Surgical Extraction, Endurance, Faerie Macabre, Force of Negation etc., and you weren't getting turn 1ed unless they spent cards on fast mana.

The timing of Grief means no fast mana needed and you're on FoW, Leyline, or bust. And if you mull to 3 for Leyline, they play 4 lands and cast Grief. Reanimator normally can't do those things.

I mean again without the card Reanimate in specific, none of that is happening turn 1 without fast mana or is equivalent to Unmask or just Thoughtseize.

Also Reanimate was just a different kind of unfair when the worst thing it could do was pay nine life to get an Inkwell Leviathan

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It’s genuinely cute how many ways you managed to find to fuck up your clapback

And yours is just sad :(

[FTW]

I mean again without the card Reanimate in specific, none of that is happening turn 1 without fast mana or is equivalent to Unmask or just Thoughtseize.

Also Reanimate was just a different kind of unfair when the worst thing it could do was pay nine life to get an Inkwell Leviathan

Reanimate on its own isn't happening on turn 1 (without fast mana) and loses to all that hate.

Its strong, but falls into the box of all-in combo that gets hated out. Then its slow at rebuilding. BR Reanimator occupied that space for years. It was Tier 1, but never oppressive.

What pushed Scaminator over the top is you can T1 Reanimate in a FAIR shell, and do it through hate (Grief beats most of the hate). Without going all-in, and rebuilding easily. Grief is what makes that happen. UB Reanimator was barely played before Grief scam. Scam made it too consistent and too much first turn advantage.

[morgan_coke]

Don't recite the deep magics to me, witch.

Describing Unmask on legs as a "turn 0 non-game unfair mechanic" is laughable. No one even played it for the first year it was legal.

Banning Grief is Wizards banning the completely fair card in an unfair deck instead of the actually degenerate parts. It is the thing you are trying to pretend banning Frog would be while Frog is an almost impossible to answer low cost perpetual CA engine that notably, does not fucking die to Bolt

Also people are absolutely claiming and have claimed this will fix things. Because they are little babies who want to play no LD/Counters/Discard and can't identify actual problem cards to save their lives.

Frog dies to everything that Kills 'Goyf. Not sure what you mean about it being impossible to answer. Its a good card, made better by being able to pitch to force, but its really not nearly as opressive as 'Goyf was when it first appeared. Fatal Push for instance, exists now.

[FTW]

Yeah the people complaining about Frog must not remember how ubiquitous Goyf was. Bob was unfair too at first. They saw wide play as better than everything else in those roles, but still 2 mana creatures that die to removal.

Frog is OP and overstatted, it's Ophidian with too many abilities, but at the core it's still a 2 mana creature you need to untap with.

If you can't answer a 2 mana creature, you're also losing to Stifle+Dreadnought or Murktide/Goyf or Stoneforge-Kaldra.

Answers to turn 2 Frog through Daze, before they draw any extra cards:
Swords to Plowshares
Fatal Push
Bloodchief's Thirst
Pyroblast
Abrupt Decay
Sudden Edict
Innocent Blood
Maze of Ith
Terminus
Solitude
Witness Protection
Run Afoul (if they try to fly over a blocker)

If OTP or willing to risk Daze
Spell Snare
Drown in the Loch
Baleful Strix
Smallpox
Go for the Throat
Sheoldred's Edict
Molten Collapse
Dress Down

You know, the same things that answered Goyf on curve.

[thefreakaccident]

At two mana, there's also a long goodbye, but I've never seen it played in our format.

[FTW]

Wouldn't be surprised if Long Goodbye saw play in decks that can't cast Decay (e.g. Grixis). Smother saw a lot of play in the Goyf-Bob meta.

I think one reason the format's struggled with Frog is the format top dogs had been relying on a lot of removal like Bolt, Bowmasters, Aether Spellbomb, Fury, Sheoldred's Edict (while Scam pushed out the UGWx midrange decks with white removal). Or just skimping on removal and trying to win combat with Saga Constructs, etc. These cards are all terrible against Frog.

Those cards are also terrible against Dreadnought, and incidentally Dreadnought saw a big spike in wins post MH3.

Can we unban Dreadhorde Arcanist then?

Good point.

Arguably DHA had a few differences that seem relevant to their ban decisions:

- It violated the color pie. UR is not allowed good card draw, otherwise Burn-Tempo doesn't run out of gas and becomes the uncontested best deck. See also: Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Expressive Iteration, Ragavan.

- Arcanist gives CA before combat and gets your best spell instead of a random draw. It can flashback Bolt/Brainstorm to answer the opponent's things, which is more oppressive to fight on the draw.

- Arcanist provides tempo/mana advantage too, freecasting the card. Like Ragavan, giving the blue tempo deck free mana is dangerous. Arcanist flashing back Bolt at face let UR get turn 3 goldfishes protected by FoW/Daze

- Arcanist was not banned this quickly. It was allowed to exist/sell packs longer first.

Wizards seems to ban tempo tools that make winning the die roll too unfair, as it leads to non-games. They seem to leave OP midrange cards because at least you get to play Magic and interact.

Though Arcanist might be unbannable now. Format was much weaker when it was banned. At 2cmc it competed with Young Pyromancer, not Bowmasters, Questing Druid, Murktide, etc.

[PirateKing]

I presume you mean to say UR is not allowed good card draw in Legacy, because EI is pretty quintessential to the color pairing, but forbidden in the format.
That argument kind of tracks, I think there's hazard in trying to connect any lines between the different bannings, there's no historical context between why a card was banned in 2015 versus 2018 versus 2024.

Also not you FTW specifically lol, but let's decide on the goalposts once and be done with it, since untapping with [cardname] and then it's well, declare combat with [cardname], then it's no wait, combat damage with [cardname]. Any will do, but not all and neither at the same time :D

I'd be fine if they said 2 CMC draw 2-ish cards were a suitable level of power for the format. Up the Beanstalk and Psychic Frog are powerful, but would those decks run EI if it were available? Or would they drop something to run Dreadhorde? As you said, it just need to attack, not even connect to get value. Maybe Frog looks less good then.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Just to point out the painfully obvious, Frog isn’t Goyf or Bob; Frog is Goyf and Bob. Confidant was, most of the time, an extra fragile enchantment that cost you life, not a bulky threat and blocker that dominated combat and oh yeah has fucking evasion.

These comparisons are asinine. Even a comparison to Dreadhorde or Ragavan, CA threats that did get banned, is asinine, because they weren’t combat dominant threats.

[FTW]

Also not you FTW specifically lol, but let's decide on the goalposts once and be done with it, since untapping with [cardname] and then it's well, declare combat with [cardname], then it's no wait, combat damage with [cardname]. Any will do, but not all and neither at the same time :D

Fair point. Will stick with original goalposts: Untap with.

By that bar DHA is fair. I did also argue DHA may be unbannable, that it was banned when the competition was Young Pyromancer.

Otherwise, my point was DHA is faster tempo than Frog, so DHA being banned isn't necessarily a reason to ban Frog. To argue X is banned so Frog should be banned, X would have to be slower/weaker than Frog. DHA doesn't quite meet that standard. It's the most common example brought up for Frog's ban. But casting Bolt/Brainstorm/Visions precombat has significant advantages over drawing a card post-damage.

Frog isn't even the only competitive 2-mana Ophidian in Daze+FoW decks. Curie, Emergent Intelligence made top 8s in Dreadnought.

I presume you mean to say UR is not allowed good card draw in Legacy, because EI is pretty quintessential to the color pairing, but forbidden in the format.
That argument kind of tracks, I think there's hazard in trying to connect any lines between the different bannings, there's no historical context between why a card was banned in 2015 versus 2018 versus 2024.

Yes, Legacy. Although those bannings happened over a long period of time, in different metas, a consistent theme was UR Delver abused them to dominate the format. Sometimes other decks used them too, but UR Delver was the #1 abuser each time. UR is supposed to be balanced by being fast but running out of gas against fair midrange. They don't like it getting good card draw, when it can already deploy its hand more aggressively. But they don't seem to mind slower decks having good card draw (Beans, Uro).

The question is where Psychic Frog will fall on that spectrum. Will it become a broken Delver draw engine, or will it just be a format staple (like Goyf) also giving midrange and combo a boost.

Goyf, Bob, and Bowmasters are good evidence they don't ban 2cmc creatures when the card has a high % representation. They ban when 1 deck gets an unfair advantage, skewing the format. If multiple archetypes can incorporate it and reach an equilibrium, the format's still balanced. That's what happened with Goyf. To put it context, Frog sees less play than FoW, Brainstorm, Ponder, blue fetches, Wasteland do in the same meta. It also sees less play than Bowmasters at first release or Goyf in its prime. High % representation doesn't seem to be their concern for Legacy, just if it gives one archetype an unfair edge.

Just to point out the painfully obvious, Frog isn’t Goyf or Bob; Frog is Goyf and Bob. Confidant was, most of the time, an extra fragile enchantment that cost you life, not a bulky threat and blocker that dominated combat and oh yeah has fucking evasion.

These comparisons are asinine. Even a comparison to Dreadhorde or Ragavan, CA threats that did get banned, is asinine, because they weren’t combat dominant threats.

Well yes, that's called power creep. The comparison was to Bob & Goyf relative to their metas then, not their absolute power level relative to today.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Power creep is what leads to cards getting banned hth

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

FTR I wish they had banned Goyf, but that would have required setting a power bar for creatures far lower than where they obviously wanted to go. It's worth noting that when we were having discussions about whether Tarmogoyf should be banned, they had never banned a creature (in Legacy) that was actually interested in attacking, the only banned creatures were combo pieces (Hermit Druid/Worldgorger/Goblin Recruiter being the only ones at the time, iirc.) We've since seen everything from manadorks (DRS) to just good old sideways attackers (Ragavan and Dreadhorde) getting the axe. Meanwhile Worldgorger is off the list and... doing nothing, and we have far more powerful combo piece creatures (mainly Thoracle) that don't seem to be on Wizards' radar.

Trying to orient the conversation as "Well people wanted to ban Goyf and Dark Confidant, and because they've been power crept into obsolescence that means those complaints were dumb and so is are these" is a bizarre framing, although, again, even within that bad faith framing, Frog is both Goyf and Confidant at the same time. But the more relevant and salient fact is just that Frog has been dominating tournaments ever since it was legal and anyone who's competent and played with the card understands why.

[Purple Blood]

Frog is both Goyf and Confidant at the same time. But the more relevant and salient fact is just that Frog has been dominating tournaments ever since it was legal and anyone who's competent and played with the card understands why.

The bold is the main thing people are glossing over here. And its actually better at being Goyf than Goyf (growth is immune to hate and it has evasion) and better at being Confidant than Confidant (no life loss and no related deck-building restrictions).

What I would add is that Frog is amazing both when ahead and behind. There's many times I've been in game situations where one side has a big board and a single Frog renders attacking futile. On the other hand, if its deployed while ahead on board, either it gets removed almost immediately or it essentially ends the game. This is exacerbated in Legacy because you can play 8 free protection spells, which also synergize with Frog (i.e. with Daze, you can pitch the returned land; with FoW, Frog recoups your 2-1).

It's the exact type of new-design I hate because in the old days you had to combine multiple cards to get broken results, whereas with Frog, it feeds itself in every way. Too much synergy on one card; too many abilities.

Additionally, people keep saying "Frog needs to connect to get advantage" but this is categorically false because a chump block is advantage as well.

Absent a ban and until they inevitably come out with something even more pushed, Frog will likely be the most played Creature so long as UB is a viable color-pairing. That doesn't necessarily mean a ban will be required but, if past examples are any indication, it is likely to be banned at some point.

[PirateKing]

Psychic Frog is really good and will define Legacy for as long as it is legal. Could very well be banned in December. Precedent exists with examples like Dreadhorde Arcanist and Expressive Iteration, cards that also served to define the format in their time. We'll likely know almost immediately based on the Eternal Weekend results.

But if that's the case, then please don't start your announcement with Legacy can take a lot of power. This isn't the format for playing fair or being safe or color equity or feel-good play patterns. Legacy is at its fundamental core unhealthy, we're putting cards together that were never meant to interact with each other and watching the runaway reaction go supercritical. Victor Frankenstein working under strict OSHA regulations kind of misses the point, doesn't it?

[FTW]

Trying to orient the conversation as "Well people wanted to ban Goyf and Dark Confidant, and because they've been power crept into obsolescence that means those complaints were dumb and so is are these" is a bizarre framing, although, again, even within that bad faith framing, Frog is both Goyf and Confidant at the same time. But the more relevant and salient fact is just that Frog has been dominating tournaments ever since it was legal and anyone who's competent and played with the card understands why.

Bad faith argument. Nobody's claimed the banGoyf or banBob crowd were dumb, that Bob and Goyf weren't banned because they were crept into obsolescence (hindsight), that Frog isn't dominating tournaments, or that 2024 Frog is comparable to 2024 Goyf.

It was 2024 Frog vs 2008-2009 Goyf (or Bob after its release). Current Frog vs Goyf & Bob in their prime.

It's irrelevant that Frog is better than these cards in 2024. Obviously it is. Power creep. The whole format creeped. Bob and Goyf are not even playable in 2024, when they used to be the best creatures in Legacy. The majority of Legacy creatures pass the "much better than Bob or Goyf" test. Look at Barrowgoyf, which is literal Goyf with +1card per turn + deathtouch + life GAIN + mill opponent. Barrowgoyf is Goyf+Bob+extras, yet far from bannable.

Dismissing the comparison by saying 2024 Frog is better than 2024 Goyf/Bob is missing the point.

Frog is 36% of the format? That's nothing compared to how much Goyf dominated tournaments. Frog feels oppressive today, but if you step back and think about it it's less dominant. Goyf and Bob were never banned then, in those metas, even when Legacy was one of the top formats and more carefully managed than it is today. That says something about banlist decisions for a high-power format like Legacy.

A lot of players wanted them banned then. The main argument to not ban was that they are fundamentally 2cmc creatures you need to untap with and die to removal. Even if their power level was far above other creatures, even if they invalidated most other creatures and saw a high meta %, they're still vulnerable to fair interaction (FoW+Daze protection existed then too), playable in a wide range of decks, and promote interactive Magic. Even if games feel dumb because they revolve around who stuck their Goyf first, or "Next Level"ing their Goyf deck with exalted Noble Hierarch or Vedalken Shackles to steal their Goyf. That was never deemed banworthy.

Frog is dominant, of course, everyone sees that. But not that dominant. If they didn't ban Goyf in that format, when Legacy was a bigger deal, why would they ban Frog so quickly now? Maybe in a few months after selling more packs. One key difference between Frog and other recent bans is that Frog is good in multiple archetypes (like Goyf and Bob were), instead of giving one deck a big edge. Most recently banned creatures gave one deck an unfair edge. And very few cards have ever been broken enough to quickly ban in Legacy. DHA and Oko were legal longer than Frog has been.

Some of the format's top decks have 0 Frogs: Eldrazi, Miracles, Painter, Nadu, Moon Stompy, Lands. With Grief banned, unfair decks that don't care about Frog also have a better chance.

Edit: Imho one factor behind Frog's current dominance is most of the top decks lacked answers to Frog. They were running removal like Bolt, Bowmasters, Kozilek's Command, Fury, Dismember, even Snuff Out (in some Cradle Control). Those cards are terrible against Frog. Legacy has better answers. But the decks with those answers weren't good in a Scaminator meta. Will those decks, that can better prey on Frog, be better in a post-Scaminator meta?

Things that answer both Frog and Murktide without losing to Daze:
Swords to Plowshares
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Run Afoul
Maze of Ith
Solitude
Witness Protection
In Too Deep
Sudden Edict
Ice-Fang Coatl (Bowmasters is the underlying problem with this & edicts)

Frog + almost everything other than Murktide: Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, Long Goodbye...