View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #23361
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    When you make arguments to "score points" rather than have a genuine debate, it is rather pointless isn't it? No one is talking about Mirage fetches other than to say they are the historical starting point for the concept of a fetch land.
    Thawing Glaciers

  2. #23362

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    IMO the best thing for Legacy gameplay would be to ban fetches, but suggesting ways to tweak the format seems pointless because its essence is permanently changing. WotC used to design for Standard and Limited. Legacy felt more weird and organic. Now sets come faster and faster, and each one is specifically designed to crack all formats, including Legacy. The format feels over-engineered, and much of new card design seems to be picking a deck that already exists and printing something that that deck canít not play.
    Last edited by BirdsOfParadise; 09-24-2022 at 01:12 AM.

  3. #23363

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    IMO the best thing for Legacy gameplay would be to ban fetches, but suggesting ways to tweak the format seems pointless because its essence is permanently changing. WotC used to design for Standard and Limited. Legacy felt more weird and organic. Now sets come faster and faster, and each one is specifically designed to crack all formats, including Legacy. The format feels over-engineered, and much of new card design seems to be picking a deck that already exists and printing something that that deck canít not play.
    That's kind of my overall gripe with the game in general.

    In the early years, they kind of just made random cards without any overall theme and left the players to build decks using whatever cards they had. Then they started to put set-specific mechanics. Then they started pre-engineering standard constructed decks into the sets. Now, they do that even for eternal formats through Modern Horizons e.g. let's make UR tempo a thing in Modern. I would be almost absolutely certain every future MH set will end up pushing a few archetypes at a time.

    It takes out part of the fun of the game when players don't get to brew and instead play what WOTC designed for them. You could argue that this is a good thing since you can make all archetypes viable but it kind of kills the soul of the game if you're just playing a standardize set of cards specifically designed to be played together.

    Alas, the internet and spread of information that came with it also kind of killed true brewing as well.

  4. #23364

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    E: nvm

  5. #23365
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Talk about a blast from the past.

    This is actually good with Amulet of Vigor in a basic land-heavy deck.

  6. #23366

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The Legacy metagame is looking healthy, with top decks all having strengths and weaknesses against each other. Since the ban of Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer in January, the most popular deck, Izzet Delver, has had its win rate trend downward. According to Magic Online data, it represents about 9% of the field and has an overall non-mirror match win rate of 52%, with both positive and negative matchups against the next ten most played decks.

    The past year has brought several new, impactful cards to competitive Legacy, including Unlicensed Hearse, Fable of the Mirror-Breaker, Ledger Shredder, Leyline Binding, and more. We're excited to see the format continue to grow as new cards lead to new strategies. As always, we'll continue to monitor how the metagame develops, but right now, things seem to be in a good spot.

  7. #23367
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don't know what's more unbelievable - Leyline Binding being a hot, new card - or Delver with 9% metashare and 52% winrate putting up ~18-19% of all tournament results.

    What a load of bullshit.

  8. #23368

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    I don't know what's more unbelievable - Leyline Binding being a hot, new card - or Delver with 9% metashare and 52% winrate putting up ~18-19% of all tournament results.

    What a load of bullshit.
    I can never understand these things but on mtggoldfish, the meta percentage is around 20%, presumably because it's twisted by so many top finishes?

  9. #23369

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmlima View Post
    I can never understand these things but on mtggoldfish, the meta percentage is around 20%, presumably because it's twisted by so many top finishes?
    Not just top finishes but mtgo league data isn't released for anything but 5-0 and even then they limit dupes
    Plus it's rare for a tournament to release all the data

  10. #23370

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Not just top finishes but mtgo league data isn't released for anything but 5-0 and even then they limit dupes
    Plus it's rare for a tournament to release all the data
    True. I totally forgot they 'curated' the results the publish.

  11. #23371
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If they measure the meta by Leagues and not competitive events, that indicates 2 things:
    1) They treat Legacy as a casual format, with negligible care for the competitive metagame
    2) They only care about profit. As long as players buy cards and pay for Leagues, they make $$.

    Leyline Binding might have seen an uptick among new brews in Leagues, as players try out the card. Must be broken!

  12. #23372

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    If they measure the meta by Leagues and not competitive events, that indicates 2 things:
    1) They treat Legacy as a casual format, with negligible care for the competitive metagame
    2) They only care about profit. As long as players buy cards and pay for Leagues, they make $$.

    Leyline Binding might have seen an uptick among new brews in Leagues, as players try out the card. Must be broken!
    Even if players don't buy cards for leagues they provide the labor to open chests and fill bots. Like operating a league on mtgo for 100 players is something that can be done on a home computer. It's not a big deal. It's not like the prizes cost them anything either. Barring a lottery set-redemption win everything you win is just more digital stuff which goes into a database somewhere and is just free for them.

    We also don't know if they're using leagues, none of us have access to their dataset and they're not telling us.

  13. #23373
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    That stats and inclusion of Leyline Binding make no sense if they're not including Leagues. Because the Challenge/Showcase % is different. And Leyline Binding sees very little play in Challenges.

    It only makes sense if they count Leagues. Then "look Delver doesn't see too much play" and "look the format is diverse" and "look new cards are seeing play". Those statements make more sense including Leagues.

  14. #23374
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Leagues provide useless data, contaminated by financial incentives tied primarily to clear speed (i.e. boosted combo presence).

    About the only useful thing you can get from a league is an estimation of how good a deck is vs linear combo.

  15. #23375
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    March 6th B&R

    Announcement Date: March 6, 2023
    Legacy:
    Expressive Iteration is banned.
    White Plume Adventurer is banned.
    Effective Date: March 6, 2023
    Since the last update, the Legacy metagame has evolved such that two major archetypes combine to make up a large portion of the field. These are the perennially popular Izzet Delver and the recently enabled Mono-White Initiative. With their combined presence approaching 30% of the field in some circles of competitive play, we're choosing to ban one card from each deck to lower their respective win rates and metagame shares.
    Izzet Delver has been popular for quite some time in Legacy, and it has picked up some notable recent additions, including Dragon's Rage Channeler, Murktide Regent, and Expressive Iteration. While we acknowledge and agree with the many Legacy players who enjoy the play patterns of Izzet Delver and similar archetypes, our data indicates a need to take the win rate and popularity of the deck down a notch to allow for more metagame diversity and innovation. Our choice is to ban Expressive Iteration, as the card quality and quantity it provides allows Izzet Delver to easily adapt to stay on top of any changes in the metagame.
    In addition to removing a generally strong card, our hope is that by removing Expressive Iteration, we reinforce Izzet Delver's historical strengths (efficient one-for-one exchanges) and weaknesses (lack of sources of card quantity) in a way that leaves the deck more vulnerable in the metagame.
    Since the release of Commander Legends: Battle for Baldur's Gate, the initiative mechanic has had a large impact on the Legacy format and continues to rise in popularity. The current second most popular deck uses fast mana to power out an initiative creature, gaining an early advantage that's difficult to recover from. To reduce the consistency and speed of this gameplay pattern, we're choosing to ban the efficient three-mana initiative creature White Plume Adventurer.
    According to our data, these two decks are holding each other in check, as well as stymieing additional metagame movement. Therefore, we're choosing to impact both decks together. We'll continue to monitor if these changes are enough to open up the metagame and evaluate further changes if needed going forward.
    Well, that was somewhat unexpected (I mean, not really, just not at the moment).
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  16. #23376
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    They missed Echo...again.

  17. #23377

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    March 6th B&R





    Well, that was somewhat unexpected (I mean, not really, just not at the moment).
    At least they still care *sheds single tear*

  18. #23378
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    At least they still care *sheds single tear*
    At least they still care about Challenge attendance.

    Fixed that for you (I think).

    Recent Challenge attendances (excluding Showcases, which are always much more highly attended):
    3/5: 64
    3/4: 50
    2/25: 53
    2/19: 86
    2/18: 61
    2/12: 85
    2/11: 49
    2/5: 69
    2/4: 49
    1/29: 68
    1/28: 56
    1/22: 90
    1/21: 53
    1/14: 60
    1/8: 120
    1/7: 64
    1/1: 106
    12/31: 65

    I could go back further, but I think this shows a general decline (and Wizards has better info, since they know how many Leagues are being played of a given format too).
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  19. #23379
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post


    Itís an impulse earlygame that is predict lategame or if you build your deck around it (baubles etc) .. neither of those cards are broken. Nights whisper Grixis isnít killing anyone.
    Hahahahahaha
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

  20. #23380
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Strong bet against.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I'd put money on that one and give you 2-to-1 odds.
    Sounds like some people owe me fucking money
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

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