View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 1152 of 1154 FirstFirst ... 1526521052110211421148114911501151115211531154 LastLast
Results 23,021 to 23,040 of 23067

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #23021
    plays Mountains
    Ace/Homebrew's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2011
    Location

    Philadelphia Area
    Posts

    2,201

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    The only strange thing is that a vanilla used to be the best creature in almost every format.
    It plays a role in Modern, and is still the most efficient threat in a vacuum. A (typically) 4/5 for 2 mana with no other investment has value. If anything, the cost is probably appropriate now and was way inflated before.

  2. #23022

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Wow. I stop playing and coming here for a few years (just circumstances! I still love the game!) and return only to discover that Goyf apparently sucks and Deathrite Shaman got banned (!?). I'm not surprised about Mental Misstep and Top, but... DRS? Wow.

    Guess I have a lot of catching up to do.
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  3. #23023
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    The woods again
    Posts

    1,031

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen View Post
    Wow. I stop playing and coming here for a few years (just circumstances! I still love the game!) and return only to discover that Goyf apparently sucks and Deathrite Shaman got banned (!?). I'm not surprised about Mental Misstep and Top, but... DRS? Wow.

    Guess I have a lot of catching up to do.
    It sure has been a trollercoaster.
    All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
    PM me if you want to contribute!
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  4. #23024
    Member
    pettdan's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    652

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen View Post
    Wow. I stop playing and coming here for a few years (just circumstances! I still love the game!) and return only to discover that Goyf apparently sucks and Deathrite Shaman got banned (!?). I'm not surprised about Mental Misstep and Top, but... DRS? Wow.

    Guess I have a lot of catching up to do.
    Deathrite was fine as long as it was only played in Maverick, Jund, Elves and Nic Fit. It was when Grixis Delver started playing it that it got too good. Or, the Delver deck got too good. Then Grixis Delver evolved into Grixis Control, cutting Delver for Strix and making a few other changes, and those two decks ruled legacy until the Deathrite ban. Gitaxian Probe got banned at the same time, it was run with Young Pyromancer and Cabal therapy, usually, in Grixis delver.

  5. #23025

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    TL:DR of the last 4 years: daze breaks any cheap CA engine, since it is so broken in the early turns and then engines makes up for its late game weakness.

    Daze decks got TC, DRS, W6, Lurrus, Dreadhorde arcanist, and Oko banned. They also contributed to the bannings of probe and DTT. The above engines except for treasure cruise and lurrus were totally fine in the shells they were designed for.

  6. #23026
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,016

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    TL:DR of the last 4 years: daze breaks any cheap CA engine, since it is so broken in the early turns and then engines makes up for its late game weakness.

    Daze decks got TC, DRS, W6, Lurrus, Dreadhorde arcanist, and Oko banned. They also contributed to the bannings of probe and DTT. The above engines except for treasure cruise and lurrus were totally fine in the shells they were designed for.
    Daze did not get those cards banned. Fetches got DRS and TC/DTT banned. Probe is a cantripping Lotus Petal that slotted into a Delver deck that was already getting double mana from Fetches once the delve mechanic was printed.

    Wrenn got Wrenn banned, Oko got Oko banned - end of story.

    Fireblast dealing 4 and making 3 mana towards TC is a waaaaaaay better [incorrect] reason for TC being banned than Daze. Mana exploits are the most reliable way to reliably draw a ban...so until alt-casting Daze requires that you put a land *into* play [i.e. ramp], it isn't anywhere near the same level. It's not about one deck, it's straight-up mana exploits.

  7. #23027
    Member
    KobeBryan's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2011
    Location

    Arcadia, CA
    Posts

    2,192

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Daze did not get those cards banned. Fetches got DRS and TC/DTT banned. Probe is a cantripping Lotus Petal that slotted into a Delver deck that was already getting double mana from Fetches once the delve mechanic was printed.

    Wrenn got Wrenn banned, Oko got Oko banned - end of story.

    Fireblast dealing 4 and making 3 mana towards TC is a waaaaaaay better [incorrect] reason for TC being banned than Daze. Mana exploits are the most reliable way to reliably draw a ban...so until alt-casting Daze requires that you put a land *into* play [i.e. ramp], it isn't anywhere near the same level. It's not about one deck, it's straight-up mana exploits.
    wrenn and oko were abusive. I don't miss those days.

  8. #23028

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Daze is a mana exploit. In a format where engines cost 2 or 3 mana, daze on your spell snare targeting W6 is a better than a cantripping lotus petal.

  9. #23029
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,016

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Daze is a mana exploit. In a format where engines cost 2 or 3 mana, daze on your spell snare targeting W6 is a better than a cantripping lotus petal.
    Mmm....no. There is no play pattern that profitably beats turn 0 Probe Sea Therapy lose 2 cards (attacks 2nd player compensation mechanism of drawing an extra card) into turn 3 Gurmags etc.

    Against Daze, every who builds a deck in legacy knows the way you construct to beat Delver is to turn all their land, Daze, and Bolt topdecks into dead draws. That is to say that you can actually pursue a viable strategy at construction and in play patterns. There is no such strategy vs Delver with a cantripping Lotus Petal (Probe).

  10. #23030

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Mmm....no. There is no play pattern that profitably beats turn 0 Probe Sea Therapy lose 2 cards (attacks 2nd player compensation mechanism of drawing an extra card) into turn 3 Gurmags etc.

    Against Daze, every who builds a deck in legacy knows the way you construct to beat Delver is to turn all their land, Daze, and Bolt topdecks into dead draws. That is to say that you can actually pursue a viable strategy at construction and in play patterns. There is no such strategy vs Delver with a cantripping Lotus Petal (Probe).
    The chance of having doubles in your hand is rather low. That is a 2 card combo that maybe puts you up 1 card if you have something to sac or the opponent is unlucky. Probe TES wasnít tier 0. The problem was daze meant your pyromancer never dies without creating value, which makes therapy always a 2 for 1.

    Absolutely everyone says that doesnít apply when they have an engine on board. If they have a Dreadhorde arcanist you need to jam and hope they donít have it, since the daze pays for itself every turn the DHA attacks.

  11. #23031
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,016

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Giving cantripping Lotus Petal was only a problem as it let Omni outrace DRS yard control in the race towards DTT and to an even greater degree, b/c it was given to a fair deck completely immune to being hated out by a SB card. There is nothing okay about a sequence that has no answer (turn 0 Probe Sea Therapy) into never losing to any SB card. Leyline of Nobody can cast Creatures was the level of nonsense they'd need to print to give people the option to just win vs Probe's worst offender.

    Daze is not mana positive [it "exerts" a land], which is why it isn't in the same league as Probe. Daze is super annoying though, I'll grant you that...but it is very much beatable.

  12. #23032
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    The woods again
    Posts

    1,031

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The chance of having doubles in your hand is rather low. That is a 2 card combo that maybe puts you up 1 card if you have something to sac or the opponent is unlucky.
    If Thoughtseize isn't doing anything wrong, Probe did nothing wrong.
    All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
    PM me if you want to contribute!
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  13. #23033

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    If Thoughtseize isn't doing anything wrong, Probe did nothing wrong.
    Incredibly correct and terribly wrong with but a comma between them.

  14. #23034
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,253

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Hmm, doing some quick math here, how many degrees of difference is there between 0 and 1?

    Infinity? I think the answer is infinity.

    So, I can't see how that comparison really works. Then again, I'm not a mathematician, so maybe we just could never know, .
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  15. #23035

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    If Thoughtseize isn't doing anything wrong, Probe did nothing wrong.
    If Peek is unplayable, Probe would be aswell.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  16. #23036
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    The woods again
    Posts

    1,031

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Take a powerful card, up its power by about 30%, split it into two cards you have to have at the same time to get the full effect, then ban one.

    Perfect.
    All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
    PM me if you want to contribute!
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  17. #23037

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The real issue is that Probe makes ALL your interaction better with information for free. Mana free, card advantage free, and gives NOTHING away. It makes your playlines apparent and makes your opponent play differently (read: less ideal for their game) and even that won't stop you from having enough information to decide what to do at that point to render even that line, all lines of play, ineffective. Pair it with Therapy and it gets increasingly better for you. If you also have a Daze/FoW, you've likely already won.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  18. #23038
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,016

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Probe is mana positive guys. See also the delve and threshold mechanics. Say it with me: cantripping Lotus Petal. All you need to know about Probe.

  19. #23039

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Zero mana look at opponent's hand for no card disadvantage is a miserable option to have in a card game, which are supposed (obviously subjective opinion but I think it's fairly important to most people's enjoyment of them) to involve aspects of hidden information and bluffing etc.

    You can argue about the interaction of probe with therapy or delve or pif or whether having probe in your deck increases your win% more than e.g. daze or any other card but I think this is missing the point.

    Thoughtseize / Peek are acceptable imo even though they remove hidden information in the same way because the chasm between 0 and 1 mana is enormous.

  20. #23040

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Well, ofc probe is good, top notch cards in tier 1 decks will always be "stupid good" tier.

    The question is how good probe is, of course it's not black lotus level, but i would argue that it is better than any recently banned card but SDT.

    So fair ban to me.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)