View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 1158 of 1166 FirstFirst ... 158658105811081148115411551156115711581159116011611162 ... LastLast
Results 23,141 to 23,160 of 23307

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #23141
    Hamburglar Hlelpler
    TsumiBand's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2005
    Location

    Nebraska
    Posts

    2,706

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    The problem is that people chose to only play good matchups/blowout hands instead of just masturbating.
    While I don't mind a non-ranked/casual queue, having no penalty is stupid.
    Prevent them from queuing for a while if they concede too many games too early.
    There is a difference in recognizing you've lost and not trying at all.
    It's also not helping with dailies at all since your opponents also just concede 0-5 cards in.
    I don't want to win, I want to play.
    Considering that the number of viable decks is about 5, doesn't help.
    Doesn't that just punish people that get garbage matchups? Why should I be forced to play it out against every Golos deck I see when I'm playing little kid shit? (I rarely scoop, unless I'm like mulling to 3 or getting mind-bogglingly fucked on land, but still)

    The problem here is that the "premature concession" line in the sand is different for most people so what you think is too soon isn't too soon for someone else, I know that's a filthy casual thing to say but it's still an unranked format, that's usually where the unwashed theme deck players go to find their "version of fun".

    Probably the real solution is to have more social features so people can control their own events and formats so this whole mismatched play experience can be mitigated
    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    Creature type - 'Fuck you mooooooom'
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    EDIT: Tsumi, you are silly.

  2. #23142

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Doesn't that just punish people that get garbage matchups? Why should I be forced to play it out against every Golos deck I see when I'm playing little kid shit? (I rarely scoop, unless I'm like mulling to 3 or getting mind-bogglingly fucked on land, but still)

    The problem here is that the "premature concession" line in the sand is different for most people so what you think is too soon isn't too soon for someone else, I know that's a filthy casual thing to say but it's still an unranked format, that's usually where the unwashed theme deck players go to find their "version of fun".

    Probably the real solution is to have more social features so people can control their own events and formats so this whole mismatched play experience can be mitigated
    I agree it's difficult to implement right but a significant fraction just conceding before mulligans is just bullshit.
    Maybe something if you concede in the first 3 turns - #mulligans or something.

    There's also a difference between conceding when you can't win anymore and when you didn't even try.
    Bad matchups are always a thing but they are rarely unwinnable.

    In general, it seems like the casual crowd - especially from the commander community - is more interested in goldfishing with minor to no opposition.
    For me that's just jerking off with (virtual) cardboard.
    There is no attempt at improving your play or deck, no appreciation for the strategic elements of the game.

    However, the format being about 50% Golos + the ~4 decks that can actually beat it doesn't help.
    That's why I'm complaining about their management of the online only formats as they have basically infinite data but they choose not to do anything.
    If the format sucks and doesn't matter, take the 5 min and ban the most played commanders and see what happens.
    At that point, just remove PWs being able to be commanders in Brawl formats in general.
    It's broken.

  3. #23143
    Hamburglar Hlelpler
    TsumiBand's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2005
    Location

    Nebraska
    Posts

    2,706

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I agree it's difficult to implement right but a significant fraction just conceding before mulligans is just bullshit.
    Maybe something if you concede in the first 3 turns - #mulligans or something.

    There's also a difference between conceding when you can't win anymore and when you didn't even try.
    Bad matchups are always a thing but they are rarely unwinnable.

    In general, it seems like the casual crowd - especially from the commander community - is more interested in goldfishing with minor to no opposition.
    For me that's just jerking off with (virtual) cardboard.
    There is no attempt at improving your play or deck, no appreciation for the strategic elements of the game.

    However, the format being about 50% Golos + the ~4 decks that can actually beat it doesn't help.
    That's why I'm complaining about their management of the online only formats as they have basically infinite data but they choose not to do anything.
    If the format sucks and doesn't matter, take the 5 min and ban the most played commanders and see what happens.
    At that point, just remove PWs being able to be commanders in Brawl formats in general.
    It's broken.
    Yeah, Brawl being EDH's kid brother format, it's going to attract a lot of that "I was told I could have fun *my way*, which means I win 90% of the time with my trash tier decks inspired by Tool lyrics" crowd, and without a way to actually build a community that is interested in playing decks you agree are fair, you'll just keep running into this problem. You can't just have an open "casual" room because players will happily walk in with meta decks and roflstomp the Timmies, and rules about how often people get to mulligan just force people to play out bad draw hands that waste everyone's time. I dunno.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    Creature type - 'Fuck you mooooooom'
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    EDIT: Tsumi, you are silly.

  4. #23144
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    The woods again
    Posts

    1,072

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    "I was told I could have fun *my way*, which means I win 90% of the time with my trash tier decks inspired by Tool lyrics"
    I know the pieces fit . . . .
    All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
    PM me if you want to contribute!
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  5. #23145
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,624

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I agree it's difficult to implement right but a significant fraction just conceding before mulligans is just bullshit.
    Maybe something if you concede in the first 3 turns - #mulligans or something.

    There's also a difference between conceding when you can't win anymore and when you didn't even try.
    Bad matchups are always a thing but they are rarely unwinnable.
    Why does it matter? That format is for casuals. If you want a non-casual experience where the other person is actually trying to maximize winning, join a competitive game.

    In a casual game, the other person is trying to maximize FUN instead (which to them may mean dropping games with bad hands, or even hands with T1 wins that are "too easy" and boring, or against decks they don't like, or because the opponent played Mountain with a weird art). Fun is subjective, so players may quit for any number of reasons. All are valid. Their objective may not be to win. Especially if they joined just to "cast 20 white spells" for the day.

    I avoid Arena for that reason. But those people deserve a space to play and enjoy the game too. If it's not for you, why not play in competitive queues instead?

  6. #23146

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Why does it matter? That format is for casuals. If you want a non-casual experience where the other person is actually trying to maximize winning, join a competitive game.

    In a casual game, the other person is trying to maximize FUN instead (which to them may mean dropping games with bad hands, or even hands with T1 wins that are "too easy" and boring, or against decks they don't like, or because the opponent played Mountain with a weird art). Fun is subjective, so players may quit for any number of reasons. All are valid. Their objective may not be to win. Especially if they joined just to "cast 20 white spells" for the day.

    I avoid Arena for that reason. But those people deserve a space to play and enjoy the game too. If it's not for you, why not play in competitive queues instead?
    While I see your points, I still believe there should be some changes to how the queue works.
    On the flip side, how "fun" is it when every second opponent concedes 1-3 turns in for the casual?
    You might get a win but didn't get to play, so what was gained?
    Did anyone have fun?

    I'm playing arena only because cardboard crack and I'm not shelving out money for virtual cardboard on MTGO.
    Since Standard and Historic also usually suck balls due to bad set design and delayed bannings, I like singleton formats since you don't play vs the same 15 cards all day and you get some variance.
    At least in theory.

    Maybe I'm just a grumpy old man, who yells at kids to get of his lawn.
    However, it seems a general trend in gaming, that easy mode seems to become the new default since nobody wants to try and struggle anymore.

  7. #23147
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,624

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    While I see your points, I still believe there should be some changes to how the queue works.
    On the flip side, how "fun" is it when every second opponent concedes 1-3 turns in for the casual?
    You might get a win but didn't get to play, so what was gained?
    Did anyone have fun?
    Depends on how the casual player defines fun.

    If your fun means only playing out good matchups so you get the satisfaction of winning a lot and farm your daily rewards faster, then yes.
    If your fun means skipping games with mulls to 5 or manascrew and only having to play good hands, then yes.
    If your fun means not having to play against certain "unfun" deck archetypes, then yes.

    Their fun probably doesn't come from the short 1-3 turn non-game itself but from the next game (which they may enjoy more). Conceding lets them skip ahead to the next game faster. They might end up spending 90% of their time in games they enjoy, even if they lose 60% of matches. But if the reward system doesn't care about win%, just quantity of games/time played, then it's not completely crazy to delegate that time to "enjoyable" games and skip the "unfun" ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Maybe I'm just a grumpy old man, who yells at kids to get of his lawn.
    However, it seems a general trend in gaming, that easy mode seems to become the new default since nobody wants to try and struggle anymore.
    I just accepted Eternal is for us grumpy old men, and Arena is for kids and new players.

    If you want competitive games on Arena but hate the narrow Standard metas, there's always Limited.

  8. #23148

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    ...
    However, it seems a general trend in gaming, that easy mode seems to become the new default since nobody wants to try and struggle anymore.
    It's not an 'easy mode' thing, it's about in-game objectives. If you are a F2P player and have limited time, you cannot waste time with side-tracking. If you need to 'attack with 45 creatures' in order to clear your daily quest you want to do it as quickly and as easily as possible. 'Fun' happens after that. MTGO is way better than Arena in that regard. You really have little excuse in MTGO, in 'casual' modes, to drop games, but in Arena, you have every reason if you are F2P and have limited time. You cannot be durdling around against the odds, you need to be all about achieving in-game goals to ensure you can continue to be F2P. After you do that sacrificial job, then you can have 'fun' and play whatever you want in whatever mode you want.

  9. #23149

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Depends on how the casual player defines fun.

    If your fun means only playing out good matchups so you get the satisfaction of winning a lot and farm your daily rewards faster, then yes.
    If your fun means skipping games with mulls to 5 or manascrew and only having to play good hands, then yes.
    If your fun means not having to play against certain "unfun" deck archetypes, then yes.

    Their fun probably doesn't come from the short 1-3 turn non-game itself but from the next game (which they may enjoy more). Conceding lets them skip ahead to the next game faster. They might end up spending 90% of their time in games they enjoy, even if they lose 60% of matches. But if the reward system doesn't care about win%, just quantity of games/time played, then it's not completely crazy to delegate that time to "enjoyable" games and skip the "unfun" ones.
    Yes, but what what does then prevent your opponent from conceding those games as well?
    If everyone concedes the games they don't want to play probably 90% will be instant concessions.
    Do people then only play mirrors because 50% win chance or not because it's a mirror and boring?
    Considering this it makes actually more sense to play ranked/limited/events to get your quests since opponents are actually playing the games out.

    If the last Zendikar was available as Limited, I would play that because that was the best limited set in ages.

  10. #23150

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Considering this it makes actually more sense to play ranked/limited/events to get your quests since opponents are actually playing the games out.

    ...
    No right / wrong answers here. For ex, for 'kill x creatures' quests I have a deck 100% composed of removal, so I just enter whatever mode gives me a meta with great likelihood of creatures being in play and that will not screw my ranking. Don't care about the game type as long as it goes long and I can get loads of creatures to remove.

  11. #23151

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I have my current deck (black + a little red and blue) and a mono white and mono red deck.
    If I can complete the current daily with my current deck I do. But if I have to use the mono colored one I switch from ranked to open play and concede p much as soon as the pace slows down or my opponent stabilizes.
    Unless it's kill X creatures then I'll just reroll it tomorrow. Those challanges are impossible to complete in a reasonable time.

  12. #23152

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I always just insta-concede against anyone who’s not Zoid. Against Zoid, I think really hard about my land drops for three turns and then concede.

    (Jk I don’t have Arena)

  13. #23153

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    I always just insta-concede against anyone who’s not Zoid. Against Zoid, I think really hard about my land drops for three turns and then concede.

    (Jk I don’t have Arena)

  14. #23154

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It's official, people tried the 60 basic lands protest in Legacy.

    (It failed, of course.)

  15. #23155

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    It's official, people tried the 60 basic lands protest in Legacy.

    (It failed, of course.)
    There was a rather cryptic article blurb on MTGO traders that said Legacy events were not firing? Of course, the article actually mentioned zero about that (click bait at its best?)

  16. #23156
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,303

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Wow, this is some interesting data to look at:



    This is all the matchup data since 8/8 (excluding, by the author, Koke_MTG, the September 26th Invitational) for the 15 most played decks in that time frame from the Legacy Data Collection Discord.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  17. #23157

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It would help if people would only fill in either half triangle.
    No idea who is favored here.

    Any info on the sample size?
    Apparently, statistical uncertainties haven't made it far enough.

  18. #23158
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,303

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Can't say, wasn't me who made it. That is something like 24 events, I think. But I don't know how much data each field might have in it.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  19. #23159

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The source is volraths data project. I did a more rigorous treatment of the same data. IIRC there were about 25 matchups which had N>30. Of those the only statistically significant matchups (FWER <= o.05) were that delver stomps on spell combo and D&T beats bant.

    With this many comparisons your family wise error rate goes through the roof (ie very likely to have at least 1 false positive among all the matchups you are testing)

  20. #23160
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,624

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Edit: Ninjaed by Reeplcheep

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)