All B/R update speculation.

[sjmcc13]

There's more degenerate shit than mind's desire.

Yes, but that does not mean that unbanning desire is not a very risky move.
Especially with how many players hate the storm mechanic with a passion.

[PirateKing]

It feels like there are less obvious ways to kill Legacy if that’s all you want to do

I'm excited to see your Tier Zero Mind's Desire deck.
Not sarcasm, I really want to see a modern day Mind's Desire deck

[H]

Not sarcasm, I really want to see a modern day Mind's Desire deck

There is one really silly thing about Mind's Desire that doesn't come into play in Vintage (the only place I've played Desire before) but MD into flipping another MD is pretty bonkers. Can't do that in Vintage because it is restricted.

Honestly, I hate Storm, as I think it is probably the worst keyword in the history of the game, but I am curious to see what can really be done with it nowadays.

[PirateKing]

There is one really silly thing about Mind's Desire that doesn't come into play in Vintage (the only place I've played Desire before) but MD into flipping another MD is pretty bonkers. Can't do that in Vintage because it is restricted.

That's what I want to see! MD > MD > MD > MD ...and my whole deck has been cast
Like, Sure milling yourself in response to Thassa's Oracle is cool and all, but what about putting your whole deck on the stack!

[Hanni]

Some sort of High Tide deck seems the most likely place due the UU cost?

Orcish Bowmasters and Hullbreacher/Narset aside, Mind's Desire seems worse than Peer into the Abyss for Storm, and they already have jukes to draw hate with Ad Naseum, Galvanic Relay, Past in Flames, etc. I'm 100% sure it finds its way into Storm regardless, but I'm not sure it makes the deck suddenly format warping.

However, I'm surprised to see Mind's Desire unbanned over Mystical Tutor.

[H]

However, I'm surprised to see Mind's Desire unbanned over Mystical Tutor.

I think it makes sense though, I have my doubts that Mystical Tutor is realistically alright when Doomsday will take to playing Personal Tutor since Mystical is not available.

[Hanni]

I think it makes sense though, I have my doubts that Mystical Tutor is realistically alright when Doomsday will take to playing Personal Tutor since Mystical is not available.

Understandable, but is the difference between Mystical Tutor and Personal Tutor really that dramatic that it's going to make Doomsday that much better than it already is? Yeah you get to tutor for Force of Will or Daze instead of Thoughtseize for protection, but is that going to break the format? I doubt it.

[H]

Understandable, but is the difference between Mystical Tutor and Personal Tutor really that dramatic that it's going to make Doomsday that much better than it already is? Yeah you get to tutor for Force of Will or Daze instead of Thoughtseize for protection, but is that going to break the format? I doubt it.

I don't think it is that exactly, but Instant speed makes it more versatile for combo because of how it can be used with Lions Eye Diamond, for example. Also, Mystical can find Ad Nauseum where Personal Tutor can't. Granted, it likely doesn't break the format, but I think it is a significant upgrade and is likely much more powerful compared to Mind's Desire. Of course, maybe I'm wrong and we're about to find out though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There's more degenerate shit than mind's desire.

There’s also more degenerate shit than Library of Alexandria or Wheel of Fortune, but they’re still not real obvious top unban picks

[Wrath of Pie]

It feels like there are less obvious ways to kill Legacy if that’s all you want to do

Yeah, that Preordain unban in Modern is really going to kill Legacy

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Some sort of High Tide deck seems the most likely place due the UU cost?

Orcish Bowmasters and Hullbreacher/Narset aside, Mind's Desire seems worse than Peer into the Abyss for Storm, and they already have jukes to draw hate with Ad Naseum, Galvanic Relay, Past in Flames, etc.

Yeah man it seems a lot worse to pay less mana that’s on color to just cast your spells uncounterably with no drawbacks instead of drawing and not casting them for free and also losing life while pretending extremely popular cards don’t exist and also needing to play around counters

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I find it very funny that Legacy players have this massive hardon for wheel effects and will jump through any conceivable hoop to make them kinda work, but apparently the concept that you can just cast a half dozen cards from the top of your deck without having to pay any more mana or give your opponent any cards, that’s humdrum apparently

Like I do get that it’s hard to gauge because the card has never been Legacy or even 1.5 legal but uhhh maybe people should think about why that is

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm excited to see your Tier Zero Mind's Desire deck.
Not sarcasm, I really want to see a modern day Mind's Desire deck

I don’t know if I want to put the energy into trying, not least because of an obvious problem I think people itt are nonetheless missing:

Mind’s Desire is insanely powerful but also insanely flexible and it’s kind of hard to predict what the best shell for actually breaking it is

You can pretty much pick any combo deck and there’s a reasonable argument that Mind’s Desire is the card needed to break it. That’s true for basically any prior form of storm combo sure but also High Tide, Sneak and Show, that dumb Cascade deck, even Reanimator or something. “Cast a bunch of your spells for free in a way that’s hard to interact with” is something a lot of decks want to do, it turns out

Christ it even goes to the yard so you can flash it back

[Lord Seth]

I don’t know if I want to put the energy into trying, not least because of an obvious problem I think people itt are nonetheless missing:

Mind’s Desire is insanely powerful but also insanely flexible and it’s kind of hard to predict what the best shell for actually breaking it is

You can pretty much pick any combo deck and there’s a reasonable argument that Mind’s Desire is the card needed to break it. That’s true for basically any prior form of storm combo sure but also High Tide, Sneak and Show, that dumb Cascade deck, even Reanimator or something. “Cast a bunch of your spells for free in a way that’s hard to interact with” is something a lot of decks want to do, it turns out

Christ it even goes to the yard so you can flash it back

In what way is Mind's Desire insanely flexible? Mind's Desire can work only in a deck that can (1) produce the mana to play it, and (2) create the Storm count necessary for it to be decent. There's not many decks that fit that build; Sneak and Show and Reanimator don't fit those criteria.

So what decks can produce the mana to play it and create a high enough Storm count? Storm is one, but by the time you build up enough Storm that Mind's Desire can reliably do strong things, you might as well just cast Tendrils of Agony for less mana (and more on-color with Dark Ritual) and win on the spot.

Then there's High Tide. That deck can produce a lot of mana, and mana on-color for that matter, and build up a big Storm count. However, Mind's Desire seems a poor choice for that deck.

Now, as a disclaimer, it's been something like a decade since I played High Tide. But I did play it for a fairly long time before that, and looking at the decklists of the handful of players who still play it, the deck hasn't changed too much. And that's where we run into the problem: Mind's Desire is not a good fit for the deck. Reset Tide obviously has no use for it, but it's not that great in Spiral Tide either. It's too much of a "win more" card.

For a point of comparison, how do you go off on turn 3? You cast your High Tide, tap your remaining two Islands for four mana, cast Turnabout (or use a previously played Candelabra) to untap your lands, then cast Time Spiral to refill your hand and draw you into more High Tides or cantrips to get yourself more High Tides. If you were to cast Mind's Desire, you'd get a grand total of three cards to cast for free, and if none of them are a Turnabout or a Time Spiral, then you're not tapped out and your turn has been wasted, plus you've wasted your cards on a failed setup.

Except for Time Spiral, every card in High Tide is good to play even before you start going off, and every maindeck card in Spiral Tide (Time Spiral included) is good in the early stages of going off. Mind's Desire is dead before going off and is unreliable in the early stages of going off; you have to go off for a while before it becomes useful. That isn't a good choice for High Tide, which wants its maindeck cards to be useful as early and as often as possible. The later game cards, like the finishers, are relegated to the sideboard. Unfortunately for Mind's Desire, it isn't an Instant that Cunning Wish can get.

I could see running a copy of Mind's Desire in the sideboard along side a Fae of Wishes or Invasion of Arcavios maindeck. Then you would make sure to only fetch it out of your sideboard when your Storm count is high enough that you can be sure it'll win you the game. But such a thing would only be a small boost at most to High Tide, and certainly not enough to turn a fringe deck into a tier 1 deck, let alone one that's an actual problem in the metagame.

Storm and High Tide are the only ones that seem to fit into the ability to produce the mana to play it (six mana is a lot, and you need two of it to be Blue so Elves isn't exactly useful) while also building up the Storm count. But neither seems a good fit for Mind's Desire. Is there another deck I'm forgetting about that fits the criteria necessary?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In what way is Mind's Desire insanely flexible? Mind's Desire can work only in a deck that can (1) produce the mana to play it, and (2) create the Storm count necessary for it to be decent. There's not many decks that fit that build; Sneak and Show and Reanimator don't fit those criteria.

So what decks can produce the mana to play it and create a high enough Storm count? Storm is one, but by the time you build up enough Storm that Mind's Desire can reliably do strong things, you might as well just cast Tendrils of Agony for less mana (and more on-color with Dark Ritual) and win on the spot.

Then there's High Tide. That deck can produce a lot of mana, and mana on-color for that matter, and build up a big Storm count. However, Mind's Desire seems a poor choice for that deck.

Now, as a disclaimer, it's been something like a decade since I played High Tide. But I did play it for a fairly long time before that, and looking at the decklists of the handful of players who still play it, the deck hasn't changed too much. And that's where we run into the problem: Mind's Desire is not a good fit for the deck. Reset Tide obviously has no use for it, but it's not that great in Spiral Tide either. It's too much of a "win more" card.

For a point of comparison, how do you go off on turn 3? You cast your High Tide, tap your remaining two Islands for four mana, cast Turnabout (or use a previously played Candelabra) to untap your lands, then cast Time Spiral to refill your hand and draw you into more High Tides or cantrips to get yourself more High Tides. If you were to cast Mind's Desire, you'd get a grand total of three cards to cast for free, and if none of them are a Turnabout or a Time Spiral, then you're not tapped out and your turn has been wasted, plus you've wasted your cards on a failed setup.

Except for Time Spiral, every card in High Tide is good to play even before you start going off, and every maindeck card in Spiral Tide (Time Spiral included) is good in the early stages of going off. Mind's Desire is dead before going off and is unreliable in the early stages of going off; you have to go off for a while before it becomes useful. That isn't a good choice for High Tide, which wants its maindeck cards to be useful as early and as often as possible. The later game cards, like the finishers, are relegated to the sideboard. Unfortunately for Mind's Desire, it isn't an Instant that Cunning Wish can get.

I could see running a copy of Mind's Desire in the sideboard along side a Fae of Wishes or Invasion of Arcavios maindeck. Then you would make sure to only fetch it out of your sideboard when your Storm count is high enough that you can be sure it'll win you the game. But such a thing would only be a small boost at most to High Tide, and certainly not enough to turn a fringe deck into a tier 1 deck, let alone one that's an actual problem in the metagame.

Storm and High Tide are the only ones that seem to fit into the ability to produce the mana to play it (six mana is a lot, and you need two of it to be Blue so Elves isn't exactly useful) while also building up the Storm count. But neither seems a good fit for Mind's Desire. Is there another deck I'm forgetting about that fits the criteria necessary?

What do you think the necessary storm count is for starters? I could use a laugh

Also like what scenario are you imagining where Time Spiral is a better cast than Mind’s Desire?

[Hanni]

Yeah man it seems a lot worse to pay less mana that’s on color to just cast your spells uncounterably with no drawbacks instead of drawing and not casting them for free and also losing life while pretending extremely popular cards don’t exist and also needing to play around counters

Blue isn't on color for current Storm decks. Black, and to a lesser extent red, are. Sure, LED can get cracked for UUU and you have Petal and Opal, but the rituals don't make blue, so getting 4UU is definitely possible, but it's in not on color.

I'm not denying that the card is powerful. If you can get to 4UU with a decent Storm count, you probably win the game. I'm sure we are going to see a new Storm variation with 4 Mind's Desire, and I'm sure it will do well against the same decks Storm does well against. The question is whether it makes Storm better against the decks it struggles against, and I'm just not so sure it changes much, given how good all of the existing engines already are. Does it fix any problems Storm currently has? You're still going to be soft to stuff like Archon of Emeria, Deafening Silence, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, Stifle, etc, and now cards like Lavinia and Boromir can shut you down, too.

No doubt we're going to be seeing Mind's Desire being played in Legacy. Is it going to warp the format, especially in an unhealthy way? I just don't think so.

[Hanni]

I don't think it is that exactly, but Instant speed makes it more versatile for combo because of how it can be used with Lions Eye Diamond, for example. Also, Mystical can find Ad Nauseum where Personal Tutor can't. Granted, it likely doesn't break the format, but I think it is a significant upgrade and is likely much more powerful compared to Mind's Desire. Of course, maybe I'm wrong and we're about to find out though.

That's fair, I wasn't thinking about the instant speed for some reason. You'd still need a draw effect to use LED to cast the Doomsday, but that certainly would increase the consistency of turn 1 Doomsday with Street Wraith or Edge of Autumn as free draw effects to enable turn 1 Tutor + LED into Doomsday.

I still don't think it breaks the format, though. Legacy has changed a lot since that card got banned, and I didn't even think it needed banned when it got banned originally.

[Hanni]

What do you think the necessary storm count is for starters? I could use a laugh

Also like what scenario are you imagining where Time Spiral is a better cast than Mind’s Desire?

In High Tide? You're definitely going to have a high fizzle rate if you're only popping off with 3-4 Storm, which was what Lord Seth was referring to.

[PirateKing]

Aw I wanted to see another IBA brew.

Mind's Desire is activity bad in the Mississippi River deck, the deck has 40 lands so your whiff rate is tremendous and if your storm count is high enough to matter, you've already won. That deck doesn't need a new (old) enabler.

[Lord Seth]

What do you think the necessary storm count is for starters? I could use a laugh

I think you'd want a Storm count of 8 to be comfortable casting it without too much fear of whiffing. Sure, you can draw some great stuff at a lower rate, but it's much more chancy.

That said, the bigger issue to me seems it being a bit off color. Getting two black mana for Ad Nauseam and Tendrils of Agony isn't so hard because Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual provide it, but getting double Blue seems not so dependable. One could try to use it in place of Ad Nauseam, but it does cost one extra mana and has the problem that you need a decent Storm count to get something out of it, whereas Ad Nauseam doesn't require it.

To be fair, I'm not much of a Storm player, so maybe I'm totally wrong on this. However, I have played a good amount of High Tide, so I think what I have to say next comes from a place of better knowledge:

Also like what scenario are you imagining where Time Spiral is a better cast than Mind’s Desire?

The instances where Mind's Desire is better than Time Spiral are the instances in which you're already very likely to win the game anyway. It's a win more card.

First, let's go over how High Tide typically plays out. Your first few turns are spent trying to sculpt your hand, and maybe putting down a Candelabra of Tawnos. Then, ideally on turn 3 or 4, you cast your High Tide or two, untap your lands with a Turnabout or a Candelabra, then fire off your Time Spiral to draw seven new cards and untap your lands to get a minimum of six mana back (you can do it without an untap effect if you go High Tide into Time Spiral with four or more lands in play). With that mana, you continue to cast more High Tides, untap your lands with more untap effects (possibly more Time Spirals) and draw cards to keep going, and you gradually build up your mana and Storm while your opponent sits there thinking "well, at least it's not Eggs."

Now, when you cast your first Time Spiral, your Storm count is going to be fairly low, probably in the 2-4 range, sometimes even just 1 if you were forced into casting (with four lands or more) a single High Tide and then a Time Spiral, or in a few cases even 0 if the game manages to somehow go so long you end up with 6 lands in play. That means the Mind's Desire is going to draw you fewer cards than the Time Spiral will. Time Spiral guarantees seven cards, Mind's Desire at this point in the game will almost always draw you fewer than that. Even worse for Mind's Desire, you absolutely need to have those cards you get off of it include an untap effect or another Mind's Desire, because you normally have to tap out to cast your Time Spiral (or Mind's Desire in this hypothetical case), and if you don't have those cards you're out of mana and your turn is over, and all you probably got for it is maybe casting a free cantrip or two. With Time Spiral, you don't immediately need an untap effect, you can draw for it with cantrips.

So Mind's Desire offers you less cards and with less margin for error. It does admittedly dodge counterspells better, but I don't think that's enough to make up for how much less reliable it is than a Time Spiral.

Now, after you've spent some time going off, typically after casting a Time Spiral, your Storm count can get large enough that Mind's Desire becomes better than Time Spiral. But at that point in the game, you're already doing great and Mind's Desire becomes "win more."

If you have the mana to cast it, Time Spiral is virtually always a good play. Mind's Desire only becomes good at the point when you're most likely going to win the game anyway.