All B/R update speculation.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think you'd want a Storm count of 8 to be comfortable casting it without too much fear of whiffing. Sure, you can draw some great stuff at a lower rate, but it's much more chancy.

That said, the bigger issue to me seems it being a bit off color. Getting two black mana for Ad Nauseam and Tendrils of Agony isn't so hard because Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual provide it, but getting double Blue seems not so dependable. One could try to use it in place of Ad Nauseam, but it does cost one extra mana and has the problem that you need a decent Storm count to get something out of it, whereas Ad Nauseam doesn't require it.

To be fair, I'm not much of a Storm player, so maybe I'm totally wrong on this. However, I have played a good amount of High Tide, so I think what I have to say next comes from a place of better knowledge:


The instances where Mind's Desire is better than Time Spiral are the instances in which you're already very likely to win the game anyway. It's a win more card.

First, let's go over how High Tide typically plays out. Your first few turns are spent trying to sculpt your hand, and maybe putting down a Candelabra of Tawnos. Then, ideally on turn 3 or 4, you cast your High Tide or two, untap your lands with a Turnabout or a Candelabra, then fire off your Time Spiral to draw seven new cards and untap your lands to get a minimum of six mana back (you can do it without an untap effect if you go High Tide into Time Spiral with four or more lands in play). With that mana, you continue to cast more High Tides, untap your lands with more untap effects (possibly more Time Spirals) and draw cards to keep going, and you gradually build up your mana and Storm while your opponent sits there thinking "well, at least it's not Eggs."

Now, when you cast your first Time Spiral, your Storm count is going to be fairly low, probably in the 2-4 range, sometimes even just 1 if you were forced into casting (with four lands or more) a single High Tide and then a Time Spiral, or in a few cases even 0 if the game manages to somehow go so long you end up with 6 lands in play. That means the Mind's Desire is going to draw you fewer cards than the Time Spiral will. Time Spiral guarantees seven cards, Mind's Desire at this point in the game will almost always draw you fewer than that. Even worse for Mind's Desire, you absolutely need to have those cards you get off of it include an untap effect or another Mind's Desire, because you normally have to tap out to cast your Time Spiral (or Mind's Desire in this hypothetical case), and if you don't have those cards you're out of mana and your turn is over, and all you probably got for it is maybe casting a free cantrip or two. With Time Spiral, you don't immediately need an untap effect, you can draw for it with cantrips.

So Mind's Desire offers you less cards and with less margin for error. It does admittedly dodge counterspells better, but I don't think that's enough to make up for how much less reliable it is than a Time Spiral.

Now, after you've spent some time going off, typically after casting a Time Spiral, your Storm count can get large enough that Mind's Desire becomes better than Time Spiral. But at that point in the game, you're already doing great and Mind's Desire becomes "win more."

If you have the mana to cast it, Time Spiral is virtually always a good play. Mind's Desire only becomes good at the point when you're most likely going to win the game anyway.

You think that wheeling- discarding your hand and drawing seven cards, while letting your opponent do the same, is almost always better than just casting the top seven cards of your library for free

I could continue but I’m going to just end the post here because nothing else needs to be said. Your opinions are deeply unserious and should not be taken seriously.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Aw I wanted to see another IBA brew.

Mind's Desire is activity bad in the Mississippi River deck, the deck has 40 lands so your whiff rate is tremendous and if your storm count is high enough to matter, you've already won. That deck doesn't need a new (old) enabler.

Start with any Dream Halls Sneak and Show List, cut some mana slots for like Sea Gate Restoration and Lorien Revealed, cut four other random cards for Mind’s Desire. Decent starting point. Again that’s just one angle, most decks benefit from casting a bunch of their cards for free

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

One big stumbling block I think people are hitting is an assumption that you need a runaway Mind’s Desire chain of Desiring into another Desire for it to be worthwhile, like just casting a half dozen cards from the top of your deck for free, something that would objectively be amazingly good in any other circumstance, somehow becomes bad or even straight up loses you the game if it’s the result of casting Mind’s Desire.

[Hanni]

Start with any Dream Halls Sneak and Show List, cut some mana slots for like Sea Gate Restoration and Lorien Revealed, cut four other random cards for Mind’s Desire. Decent starting point. Again that’s just one angle, most decks benefit from casting a bunch of their cards for free

The key wording here is Storm. How are you creating a Storm chain in Show and Tell prior to then resolving a spell that costs 4UU? Sure, if you Brainstorm an Emrakul on top EOT and then untap and cast Mind's Desire for zero Storm, that certainly works, but there's more efficient ways of doing that, like Show and Tell or Vesuvan Drifter.

High Tide and Storm are the two decks designed to effectively multi-cast spells prior to being able to cast a spell that costs 4UU on the same turn. I guess there's also Elves and Mystic Forge that multi-cast a bunch and could also theoretically generate 4UU, but I really don't see either of those decks needing Mind's Desire.

If you're not generating much Storm, getting to cast a spell or two for free for 4UU is super medium, so this certainly isn't finding a home anywhere else.

Does this now get played in some High Tide and Storm decks? Absolutely. Does it make these decks OP and format warping? No way.

[FTW]

The key wording here is Storm. How are you creating a Storm chain in Show and Tell prior to then resolving a spell that costs 4UU? Sure, if you Brainstorm an Emrakul on top EOT and then untap and cast Mind's Desire for zero Storm, that certainly works, but there's more efficient ways of doing that, like Show and Tell or Vesuvan Drifter.

Mind's Desire shuffles before reveal, so the Brainstorm trick doesn't even work.

[Hanni]

Mind's Desire shuffles before reveal, so the Brainstorm trick doesn't even work.

Yeah, you're right. Even worse for a Show and Tell deck, then.

[BirdsOfParadise]

You think that wheeling- discarding your hand and drawing seven cards, while letting your opponent do the same, is almost always better than just casting the top seven cards of your library for free

I could continue but I’m going to just end the post here because nothing else needs to be said. Your opinions are deeply unserious and should not be taken seriously.

In this comparison, surely Time Spiral is untapping about 12 mana and Mind’s Desire is not?

Free casting 7 cards >> drawing 7 cards (and letting opp draw 7), but is that the right comparison?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Desire is untapping infinite mana because you are casting the spells.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The key wording here is Storm. How are you creating a Storm chain in Show and Tell prior to then resolving a spell that costs 4UU? Sure, if you Brainstorm an Emrakul on top EOT and then untap and cast Mind's Desire for zero Storm, that certainly works, but there's more efficient ways of doing that, like Show and Tell or Vesuvan Drifter.

High Tide and Storm are the two decks designed to effectively multi-cast spells prior to being able to cast a spell that costs 4UU on the same turn. I guess there's also Elves and Mystic Forge that multi-cast a bunch and could also theoretically generate 4UU, but I really don't see either of those decks needing Mind's Desire.

If you're not generating much Storm, getting to cast a spell or two for free for 4UU is super medium, so this certainly isn't finding a home anywhere else.

Does this now get played in some High Tide and Storm decks? Absolutely. Does it make these decks OP and format warping? No way.

Mana acceleration and cantrips hth

Again you don’t actually have to have a very high storm count for MD to be good

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Desire is untapping infinite mana because you are casting the spells.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Free casting 7 cards >> drawing 7 cards (and letting opp draw 7), but is that the right comparison?

Since those are what the cards do, yes

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It feels weird to have to explain to people that the only card that’s ever been pre-emptively banned before it was even legal is good tbh

[BirdsOfParadise]

Since those are what the cards do, yes

But it’s not all that the cards do. You snipped half my post, which was relevant, if you like untapping twelve mana.

I’ll drop it, though. I don’t mind whether Mind’s Desire is broken or not.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also like to be clear, Desire into Desire chains are stupid and we’re also not sufficiently discussing how easy they actually are to set up because unlike something like Time Spiral, Desire doesn’t even self exile so you can just cast it again from your graveyard

But to be clear you do not actually have to Desire into another Desire and play your entire deck for it to be really good and win the game

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

But it’s not all that the cards do. You snipped half my post, which was relevant, if you like untapping twelve mana.

I won’t argue with you if you’re if a snit though. I don’t mind whether Mind’s Desire is broken or not.

Because I thought that dull and inane point had already been sufficiently pounded into the dirt by pointing out that MD makes the spells free, but if you’re that much of a glutton for humiliation we can keep driving that same point home I guess

Do you need me to break down what “without paying their mana cost” means, tell me how much hand holding you’re going to need

[Hanni]

Mana acceleration and cantrips hth

Again you don’t actually have to have a very high storm count for MD to be good

In Show and Tell, that's literally 4 Lotus Petal. So you're expecting to sandbag Petals and a cantrip or two until you have enough mana to cast a couple of Petals, couple of cantrips, and then resolve Mind's Desire? That's like, what, turn 6? That's just not what Show and Tell is built to do at all. Let's say you only find a single Petal, so with a single cantrip, you're going off for 5UU for 3 free spells? Maybe you get lucky and hit a fatty, but what if you rip a land, cantrip, and Force of Will off the top? Show and Tell isn't the shell for this.

If the goal is to use Mind's Desire to free cast fatties off the top, maybe some sort of Big Eldrazi deck with mana ramp (Cloudpost/mana rocks) would be a better shell... but why build Big Eldrazi these days when you can build Mystic Forge/One Ring combo instead? And if you're generating big mana, do you really need Mind's Desire to free cast fatties? I'm just not seeing it.

You do need a Storm count for Mind's Desire to do something. You don't get to cast the spells for the rest of the game, just until end of turn. If you don't hit any gas, you're not really doing anything. The likelihood you're hitting gas with a low storm count is low. Spending 4UU to cast a couple of free cantrips is much worse than other value engines in Legacy.

The home for Mind's Desire is literally High Tide and Storm. I don't understand why this is difficult to understand.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In Show and Tell, that's literally 4 Lotus Petal. So you're expecting to sandbag Petals and a cantrip or two until you have enough mana to cast a couple of Petals, couple of cantrips, and then resolve Mind's Desire? That's like, what, turn 6? That's just not what Show and Tell is built to do at all. Let's say you only find a single Petal, so with a single cantrip, you're going off for 5UU for 3 free spells? Maybe you get lucky and hit a fatty, but what if you rip a land, cantrip, and Force of Will off the top? Show and Tell isn't the shell for this.

If the goal is to use Mind's Desire to free cast fatties off the top, maybe some sort of Big Eldrazi deck with mana ramp (Cloudpost/mana rocks) would be a better shell... but why build Big Eldrazi these days when you can build Mystic Forge/One Ring combo instead? And if you're generating big mana, do you really need Mind's Desire to free cast fatties? I'm just not seeing it.

You do need a Storm count for Mind's Desire to do something. You don't get to cast the spells for the rest of the game, just until end of turn. If you don't hit any gas, you're not really doing anything. The likelihood you're hitting gas with a low storm count is low. Spending 4UU to cast a couple of free cantrips is much worse than other value engines in Legacy.

The home for Mind's Desire is literally High Tide and Storm. I don't understand why this is difficult to understand.

Show and Tell has played Grim Monolith and Chrome Mox for far less payoff.

Also I think you are grotesquely underestimating the danger of Desire even for 3 in a deck that plays a dozen+ cards where they win if they flip

[Hanni]

Show and Tell has played Grim Monolith and Chrome Mox for far less payoff.

Also I think you are grotesquely underestimating the danger of Desire even for 3 in a deck that plays a dozen+ cards where they win if they flip

Show and Tell costs 3 mana. The point is to pay 3 mana to cheat a significantly more expensive card into play. Grim Monolith doesn't help accelerate into Show and Tell. Ancient Tomb + Lotus Petal is a sufficient amount of acceleration to do that. What are you cutting to fit more mana acceleration and Mind's Desire?

Seems to me what you're thinking of is some hybrid between Storm and Show and Tell, where you run a bunch of mana acceleration into Mind's Desire with a low to medium Storm count in an attempt to hit a fatty instead of tutors/other Storm engines/Tendrils. Is that really better than just playing a variation of Storm?

I'd love to see a list of what you think would work using Mind's Desire in a Show and Tell deck.

[Lord Seth]

You think that wheeling- discarding your hand and drawing seven cards, while letting your opponent do the same, is almost always better than just casting the top seven cards of your library for free

I could continue but I’m going to just end the post here because nothing else needs to be said. Your opinions are deeply unserious and should not be taken seriously.

I never made any statement about drawing seven versus casting seven off Mind's Desire; I rather compared drawing seven off of Time Spiral versus getting 3-5 off of a Mind's Desire, because that's the important comparison. When you fire off your first Time Spiral in a turn (the most important one), your Storm count will rarely be six or greater, so you draw more cards off of it than you'd get off a Mind's Desire.

But let's work through what you refer to. Again, we need to remember how Spiral Tide "going off" turns play out. If you cast that Mind's Desire instead of your first Time Spiral, then you absolutely have to get a Turnabout, Time Spiral, or another Mind's Desire. If you get cantrips or search cards, even if you can play them for free, you can't play what you find for free, and your turn ends with you failing to go off. With Time Spiral, you'll get at least six mana (possibly more), so you have the ability to dig further for those cards, and you get more leniency in what those cards are--a Candelabra won't help you if you cast it off Mind's Desire without the mana to activate it, but Time Spiral will leave you with the necessary mana.

If the Mind's Desire hits one of the required cards, then it will be better than Time Spiral. But even with 7 cards your odds aren't that amazing, and you generally aren't going to even get 7 cards off of your first cast of it. By the time you have enough Storm and/or mana that Mind's Desire isn't risky, you're likely winning already.

In regards to Mind's Desire casting them for free, Time Spiral untapping your mana to get you more mana (you will get at least six off your first, more if you've managed to cast multiple High Tides) so you effectively get to cast some spells for free. Not necessarily all of them, but let's not pretend that Time Spiral just draws you cards without giving you extra ability to cast them.

The last thing to note is your emphasis on your opponent drawing cards. That is a disadvantage of Time Spiral relative to Mind's Desire, but your opponent will mostly be drawing cards irrelevant for the turn you're going off.

So in the most important parts of the game, Time Spiral is definitely better than Mind's Desire. By the point Mind's Desire becomes better than Time Spiral, you're already winning. It might be worth running Mind's Desire to absolutely seal the deal once you get to that point (turning a probable win into a virtually certain one), but I don't think it's a particularly big boost to High Tide, and certainly wouldn't break the deck (which was barely a thing before the unban).

But I suppose we'll see how the metagame shakes up, and soon enough we'll see who's right and who's wrong.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

For the first time in months I had the opportunity to play legacy and I chose not to.
Lmao @anyone who wants to play against mind's desire. What's wrong with you?