All B/R update speculation.

[joemauer]

, You guys had that one season...

Are you talking about last season where our offense smashed every kind of record or the 2009 season where we won the Superbowl?

I was actually referring to the extreme penalties being handed out: like the head coach being suspended. Just to be made an example of for something all teams do.

[rxavage]

anyone who's comparing tinker to show&tell in term of power raw probably never ran tinker once
Even if S&T maybe needs to be fixed at some point due to recent releases, tinker is a uber-unfair card compared to S&T. Test it.

IMO it would be a more than fair fix if they errata S&T to allow planeswalkers to be put into play.


@joemauer

Ok so 2 seasons. You mean like they did to the Patriots a few years back over the whole filming the other team bs?

[Vacrix]

IMO it would be a more than fair fix if they errata S&T to allow planeswalkers to be put into play.

If you want to drop a Walker, Eureka works.

[CorpT]

If you want to drop a Walker, Eureka works.

I think he was more thinking that if it allowed your opponent to put a Walker into play, it would be more balanced.

[LOurs]

IMO it would be a more than fair fix if they errata S&T to allow planeswalkers to be put into play.

I wont bet on that.
the reason S&T could be considered as borderline nowadays is that it allows you to draw 7/14 instantaneously whatever your opponent put in play with S&T except needle effect. And needle effect are pretty weak to answer to a 7/7 flying lifelink creature with 5 back up in hand... an opponent planeswalker wont prevent that in any way, S&T pilot will just put a bit more bounce or so, still drawing mass cards, still winning ...

The deck is clearly beatable all in all, but if they wanna fix it for some reasons, a ban of S&T is imo both the easiest and the best way to do it.

[Tao]

Allow all permanents to be put otb and you could Show and Tell a Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Not exatly a fix...

[joemauer]

@joemauer

Ok so 2 seasons. You mean like they did to the Patriots a few years back over the whole filming the other team bs?

They suspended the Patriots head coach? I must have missed that.

@Tinker being broken: We ought to Necro the B & R challenge thread again. The one where people tried to prove/disprove cards were broken. It seems like a good time for that thread.

[rxavage]

They suspended the Patriots head coach? I must have missed that.

@Tinker being broken: We ought to Necro the B & R challenge thread again. The one where people tried to prove/disprove cards were broken. It seems like a good time for that thread.

I was refering to "Just to be made an example of for something all teams do."

[Star|Scream]

I won't argue against that. It is possible that Tinker the more powerful card at one point in time which is why it is on the B&R list. As to the reason it is still banned I can only speculate that maybe WotC is being cautious because of the anti "blue" sentiment among some players. As to when certain cards should have been unbanned thats just conjecture and arbitrary. There are a few cards that could come of the list and probably will eventually. I think the list should be as small as possible and if people don't like "blue" dominance then they can play casual, there is no reason a competitive enviroment has to be "fair". If I think it's unfair that I cannot be a professional football player making millions of dollars even though I lack the skill and genetics do you think the NFL should enforce rules and regulations so that I can achieve my "dream"? I'm tired of all these entitled cry**** running around dictating how things should be, it is nothing but selfish and self serving.



Also, this:

Just because your tolerance for "unfair" is higher than someone else's doesn't mean you should resort to name-calling. I mean, why not just unban flash and the power 9? Who cares if it's unfair? Go play casual.

^^ The above is absurd. Please don't use it as an argument against me because I'm not actually advocating that. My point is that there will always exist a line between broken and acceptable. You really can't call people whiners just because their line is lower than yours.

[rxavage]

Just because your tolerance for "unfair" is higher than someone else's doesn't mean you should resort to name-calling. I mean, why not just unban flash and the power 9? Who cares if it's unfair? Go play casual.

^^ The above is absurd. Please don't use it as an argument against me because I'm not actually advocating that. My point is that there will always exist a line between broken and acceptable. You really can't call people whiners just because their line is lower than yours.

You're right insults are unnecessary. But that doesn't take away from the argument that a competitive environment should be dumbed down because some people don't like a certain cards.

[Kich867]

You're right insults are unnecessary. But that doesn't take away from the argument that a competitive environment should be dumbed down because some people don't like a certain cards.

Dumbing down? You mean by making people actually play the game or?

[LOurs]

@Tinker being broken: We ought to Necro the B & R challenge thread again. The one where people tried to prove/disprove cards were broken. It seems like a good time for that thread.

tinker doesnt need a deck full built around it : 2/3 tinker (or even only 1), appropriate number of artifacts (such as land artifact, sensei and other easly playable & cheap artifact) and 1 win con target is fairly enough to add a very powerfull option to many Ux.dec
With a correct built, it is basicaly a 1 card combo.

[Ignithas_]

Omniscience got spoiled:

Omniscience

{7} {U} {U} {U}
Enchantment {MYTHIC}
You may cast nonland cards from your hand without paying their mana costs.

What do you think? Is this a candidate for banning or is it just bad because it isn't hardcastable unlike Dreamhalls/Sneak Attack?

[Moondancerbb]

Omniscience got spoiled:

Omniscience

{7} {U} {U} {U}
Enchantment {MYTHIC}
You may cast nonland cards from your hand without paying their mana costs.

What do you think? Is this a candidate for banning or is it just bad because it isn't hardcastable unlike Dreamhalls/Sneak Attack?

I am thinking it might actually just be bad compared to dream halls as it is if dream halls resolves the game is basically over.

[CorpT]

I am thinking it might actually just be bad compared to dream halls as it is if dream halls resolves the game is basically over.

But not having to discard a card to make this work and not being symmetrical makes this worse?

[Koby]

But not having to discard a card to make this work and not being symmetrical makes this worse?

Being able to actually cast Dream Halls is the only benefit compared between the two. In all other areas, Omniscience is better. (I understand you-CorpT get that, just adding to the discussion)

[Moondancerbb]

But not having to discard a card to make this work and not being symmetrical makes this worse?

The fact that you can never actually hardcast it and so can only show and tell it out. One of the reasons sneak and show is so good is outside of its show and tell plan it can just cast sneak attack.

[CorpT]

Being able to actually cast Dream Halls is the only benefit compared between the two. In all other areas, Omniscience is better. (I understand you-CorpT get that, just adding to the discussion)

Agreed. I guess it comes down to how often you would hard cast a Dream Halls vs how often giving the ability to cast freely backfires. In all likelihood, it is cast very rarely, but backfires even more rarely. That's pretty speculative though.

I guess the other difference is that you can cast Emrakul with Omniscience, but not Dream Halls (correct?)

[Koby]

The deck is clearly beatable all in all, but if they wanna fix it for some reasons, a ban of S&T is imo both the easiest and the best way to do it.

Banning Show & Tell still leaves us with a format that can consistently or reliably put into play a turn 2 Griselbrand via Entomb. Banning Show & Tell alone doesn't necessarily "fix" the format from the Demon.

[rooneg]

Agreed. I guess it comes down to how often you would hard cast a Dream Halls vs how often giving the ability to cast freely backfires. In all likelihood, it is cast very rarely, but backfires even more rarely. That's pretty speculative though.

Actually, Dream Halls gets hardcast pretty regularly. It's the main advantage the deck has compared to Hive Mind, with Dream Halls you only need a single 2 mana land to hardcast it on turn 4.