All B/R update speculation.

[caiomarcos]

Would a "fixed" Bargain, costing 4BBBB, be legal in this format?

[Ignithas_]

Completely agree. With Griselbrand staying legal we can have both Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence coming of the ban list. As dragonwisdom put it - "There are many powerful cards, but legacy is full of them and there are answers to just about everything." We have counterspells/pithing needle effects to deal with Necropotence. Lets take it from the ban list, amrite?
And for those saying that Necropotence/Y. Bargain is easy to put into play - so is Griselbrand, and this doesn't involve just reanimation effects.

Necropotence is so much stronger than Griselbrand. For 3 Mana you most of the time win the game. You can't reliably play Griselbrand in Storm and Tempo decks, but you can play Necropotence in both and Bargain in Storm.

When they really decide to unban these cards (that would rise the powerlevel of the format and basicly kick out fair decks) I will rise my voice for Balance and Mishras Workshop, so that not only Tempo and Combo decks can have their fun.

[CorpT]

Would a "fixed" Bargain, costing 4BBBB, be legal in this format?

Make it a Planeswalker that can be activated multiple times so it can't just be Show and Telled in.

[Awaclus]

Would a "fixed" Bargain, costing 4BBBB, be legal in this format?

If they printed it, they wouldn't ban it.

[xeraseth]

All the above mentioned answers aren't reliable enough to have them as "absolute answer". You need a specific scenario for them to work - aka Griselbrand player being on low life (Maverick case), or Griselbrand player having no permission/disruption. It does happen, but it's not reliable.



Completely agree. With Griselbrand staying legal we can have both Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence coming of the ban list. As dragonwisdom put it - "There are many powerful cards, but legacy is full of them and there are answers to just about everything." We have counterspells/pithing needle effects to deal with Necropotence. Lets take it from the ban list, amrite?
And for those saying that Necropotence/Y. Bargain is easy to put into play - so is Griselbrand, and this doesn't involve just reanimation effects.

Have you ever played Vintage before? Landing Necro is basically game over. There is no way they can unban Necro. Bargin I think should also be banned, 6 vs 8 is a big difference when ritualling to it. Just saying.

[Koby]

Have you ever played Vintage before? Landing Necro is basically game over. There is no way they can unban Necro. Bargin I think should also be banned, 6 vs 8 is a big difference when ritualling to it. Just saying.

Have you played Vintage? Landing Necro is a death sentence. I've beaten the Necro player close to 80% of the time. Necro is only good on turn 1 on the play against non-Workshop. Good luck. It's quite powerful, but in no way consistent. Bargain and Griselbrand are much more powerful, and costed appropriately for their power.

[Vacrix]

Autopsy reveals Grieselbrand topic beaten to death; blunt force trama to the head, repeated strikes, a crime of passion. Note to detectives: may have a connection to an unsolved dead horse case, in which horse was beaten post-mortem.

In short...

- Grieselbrand can be powered out quickly via various enablers such as a reanimation package, Sneak/Show, or (apparently) a combination reanimation package and black rituals storm package.
- Decks that power out Grieselbrand can do so anywhere from turn 1 to turn 3 rather consistently with Force of Will back up in addition to various configurations of the blue countermagic protection suite.
- There are multiple means by which to fight Grieselbrand as well as its enablers and/or its enabler packages, not limited to Scavenging Ooze, Karakas, Stingscourer, Knight of the Reliquary (into Karakas), Liliana of the Veil, Jace the Mindfucker, any spot removal, and graveyard removal... Emrakul is a stronger drop in a lot of cases.
- The concentration of such decks is limited due to the deck's massive pricetag, somewhere around $2000 (in Sneak/Show's case).. meaning the deck is going to do much better in a small event than at a larger one.
- Given that WotC likes printing giant cool creatures that you'll never actually hardcast outside of EDH, we'll likely either see a Show and Tell ban because its the enabler... or (something nobody has mentioned for some reason) new hate printed specifically targeted at the SnT/Reanimator archetype. It happened with storm combo so there's nothing to stop it from happening here.
- Grieselbrand is not an improved Yawgmoth's Bargain nor is it really comparable. Each card is enabled in entirely different ways, Bargain both by SnT and black rituals (honestly I don't know how those Grieselstorm decks made day 2...) would most likely be a superior deck to current Grieselbrand decks, and definitely something worth bitching about.
- Unbanning things and wizards printing new cards is probably healthier for the format than banning more cards because WotC fucked up. Grieselbrand isn't even close in powerlevel to something like Mental Misstep. Neither is Show and Tell. I really doubt either gets banned. We already have decks that play maindeck resources to fight it. I'm sure more decks will have access to such resources within the next few sets.

[dontbiteitholmes]

So...

In related news to every throwing a shit fit over a card/deck then the format adjusting, I can say with a good amount of certainty after this weekend in St. Louis that Reanimator isn't really a tier 1 deck now that people know about it and prepare for it. Also Sneak and Show is now officially a horrible deck. Both decks were absolutely everywhere and both went absolutely nowhere. After the first 3 rounds the bottom tables were full of said decks.

Also Merfolk is legit again, prepare for it or prepare to lose to it. So I guess what I'm saying is, In before "BAN MASTER OF PEARL TRIDENT."

[Einherjer]

...remember...we do not ban new cards:"BAN LORD OF ATLANTIS"

[dontbiteitholmes]

On another note Standard is now FUBAR. Wizards was pretty dumb to print a land that makes creatures uncounterable, a bunch of insane bomby creatures, and a card that basically wins the game everytime you topdeck it after turn 4 in the same rotation. Who fucking knew...

[Vacrix]

Merfolk is going to be a phase. It will come back for a few months and fall to the way side. Maverick already rapes blue too hard. It fills Merfolk's niche, and beats Merfolk.

A single lord isn't going to improve what Merfolk lacked; library manipulation and spot removal. It might make their clock a little stronger and their Maverick game a bit better but is that going to hold up when the metagame makes a few adjustments?

[joemauer]

On another note Standard is now FUBAR. Wizards was pretty dumb to print a land that makes creatures uncounterable, a bunch of insane bomby creatures, and a card that basically wins the game everytime you topdeck it after turn 4 in the same rotation. Who fucking knew...

Well at least no one has to play against "not fun stuff" like land destruction, counterspells, or any combo decks. It is good to see WotC has their priorities in order.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Merfolk is going to be a phase. It will come back for a few months and fall to the way side. Maverick already rapes blue too hard. It fills Merfolk's niche, and beats Merfolk.

A single lord isn't going to improve what Merfolk lacked; library manipulation and spot removal. It might make their clock a little stronger and their Maverick game a bit better but is that going to hold up when the metagame makes a few adjustments?

Yeah, Legacy is cyclical. We will have to worry about little blue men for a couple months then it's back to people calling for a ban on GSZ again.

[xfxf]

This might be the tipping point where DCI finally decides to ban Islands to put out the ban cries once and for all.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This might be the tipping point where DCI finally decides to ban Islands to put out the ban cries once and for all.

The people who cry for bans every time a new deck pops up will never stop crying that cards are broken because then they would have to face the real reason they aren't winning.

[Vacrix]

I wish it were cyclical... Storm combo hasn't been good in a long time. I mean fuck when you have to deal with 3 maindeck Thalia, and 4 GSZ, and 1 Teeg, they usually have that bear 2nd turn... in the fucking maindeck. Its bullshit.

Seriously.. Thalia is the most bullshit card they've printed in a long time. A bear... that can be run in the maindeck. That puts a lot of pressure on storm combo players to set up to play around it, make them discard it before it comes down, or go off before it comes down.

They really need to give storm combo something. Its been way too long. Past in Flames was good but it wasn't GREAT. Thalia, on the other hand was GREAT, as was Flusterstorm, Snapcaster, Delver, GSZ... shit. Storm combo has practically fallen to the way side and I still hear people bitch about how busted LED is. How many different choices do people have for hating storm whilst also hating something else? Its not even dedicated sideboard hate anymore; you can port it between matchups or run it maindeck. Its getting a little ridiculous.

Yeah well you can split Maverick into eight 7 card hands and every single one of those hands is playable.

So yeah. Where's my damn Zombie Spirit Guide?



In terms of cycles, definitely glad to see Dredge back in DTB.

[joemauer]

I wish it were cyclical... Storm combo hasn't been good in a long time. I mean fuck when you have to deal with 3 maindeck Thalia, and 4 GSZ, and 1 Teeg, they usually have that bear 2nd turn... in the fucking maindeck. Its bullshit.

Seriously.. Thalia is the most bullshit card they've printed in a long time. A bear... that can be run in the maindeck. That puts a lot of pressure on storm combo players to set up to play around it, make them discard it before it comes down, or go off before it comes down.

They really need to give storm combo something. Its been way too long. Past in Flames was good but it wasn't GREAT. Thalia, on the other hand was GREAT, as was Flusterstorm, Snapcaster, Delver, GSZ... shit. Storm combo has practically fallen to the way side and I still hear people bitch about how busted LED is. How many different choices do people have for hating storm whilst also hating something else? Its not even dedicated sideboard hate anymore; you can port it between matchups or run it maindeck. Its getting a little ridiculous.

Yeah well you can split Maverick into eight 7 card hands and every single one of those hands is playable.

So yeah. Where's my damn Zombie Spirit Guide?



In terms of cycles, definitely glad to see Dredge back in DTB.

You can thank Tom Lapile for that. He hated storm combo, remember.

[Julian23]

You ain't seen nothing yet. Once people start running Great Sable Stag in the main, Storm combo will completely disappear.

[nedleeds]

This might be the tipping point where DCI finally decides to ban Islands to put out the ban cries once and for all.

I'm thinking Brainstorm might go before Island ...

[Barook]

and a card that basically wins the game everytime you topdeck it after turn 4 in the same rotation. Who fucking knew...

What card are you talking about?