View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #4301
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I wouldn't say aggro is dead...I would say SLIGH is dead...for now. It just doesn't pay anymore to sleave up the cheapest beatsticks and burn. You need to be able to interact, because the best cards in the format allow for a broad approach with broad answers. Playing dumb beats and burn spells just doesn't cut it anymore unless the meta-game becomes ripe for that strategy. I think the downfall of Zoo from being a DTB to a meta-game deck has really gotten under people's skin. It's like your tennis buddy just gained 50 pounds.
    The format is starting to saturate with BUG, BGW, and 4c Deathrite Shaman decks. I'd hardly say that Sligh is dead... the format just hasn't adjusted. We're just now getting over the Counterbalance-Miracles era, so it hasn't had enough time to shift yet. Once Abrupt Decay knocks Counterbalance out of the way, and everyone is rocking Rock/BUG decks, Zoo and Sligh decks could very well make a comeback. Sligh moresoe than Zoo, since I expect Terminus is going to continue to be played large quantities over the long haul.
    Sligh
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  2. #4302

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    The format is starting to saturate with BUG, BGW, and 4c Deathrite Shaman decks. I'd hardly say that Sligh is dead... the format just hasn't adjusted. We're just now getting over the Counterbalance-Miracles era, so it hasn't had enough time to shift yet. Once Abrupt Decay knocks Counterbalance out of the way, and everyone is rocking Rock/BUG decks, Zoo and Sligh decks could very well make a comeback. Sligh moresoe than Zoo, since I expect Terminus is going to continue to be played large quantities over the long haul.
    I'm not so sure. Anytime I think a non-Blue deck would be well positioned in the metagame their numbers never surge. I think this has a lot to do with players erroneously thinking that only Blue decks are good, can win tournaments, etc.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  3. #4303
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think it's more the natural rotation. Atm all those BGx with A.Decay and DRS feat. Discard tear miracles apart which can only result in an increase of Combo decks like TES which can ignore all but the discard of those decks and just outplay the discard with their cantrips/tutors while slaming all artifact-mana on the table asap. Then the Control-subtype will rise again ...

    We had this development many times before. Old countertop < Meerfolk < Survival (< banhammer) < GW Zenith < Show&Tell < RUG < Maverick < miracles < GBx

    ...or the like. Blue goes nowhere
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  4. #4304
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Blue is not synonymous with Counterbalance. Whether TES/Belcher/etc become the answer to Rock/BUG or not has nothing to do with Counterbalance getting pushed back into obscurity because of Abrupt Decay, especially when those combo decks can now pack Abrupt Decay themselves. Sligh beats most blue decks, but loses badly to UW Miracles. The combination of StP, Terminus, and Counterbalance is incredibly difficult to beat. If you remove Counterbalance from the metagame, Sligh can thrive. Check my sig if you're curious about the sort of Sligh I'm referencing.

    Zoo is positioned a little differently, due to its slower goldfish and larger dependance on creature damage, but it still seems positioned well enough in a Rock/BUG meta.

    EDIT: There's also UR Delver, which is sort of like a cross between Sligh and blue-ish, although I personally feel that UR Delver is just a worse version of both RUG Delver an RUW Sligh.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  5. #4305

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Sligh beats most blue decks, but loses badly to UW Miracles. The combination of StP, Terminus, and Counterbalance is incredibly difficult to beat. If you remove Counterbalance from the metagame, Sligh can thrive.
    But there's no reason to play Sligh. Sure, it does well against BUG decks, but doing poorly against most combo decks and UW Control is going to cause people to not want to play it. If you're not killing someone on turn 1-3 where only counterspells, discard, and Counterbalance can keep you in check game one, you'd better be able to go into the mid/late game.

    Sligh decks can't do this and this is why they are a bad choice atm.

    Also, what the hell is up with the Jund decks? Did people playing Modern decide to just throw in a few duals, tinker for like 5 seconds, and then go to a Legacy tournament?

  6. #4306
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Blue is not synonymous with Counterbalance. Whether TES/Belcher/etc become the answer to Rock/BUG or not has nothing to do with Counterbalance getting pushed back into obscurity because of Abrupt Decay, especially when those combo decks can now pack Abrupt Decay themselves. Sligh beats most blue decks, but loses badly to UW Miracles. The combination of StP, Terminus, and Counterbalance is incredibly difficult to beat. If you remove Counterbalance from the metagame, Sligh can thrive. Check my sig if you're curious about the sort of Sligh I'm referencing.

    Zoo is positioned a little differently, due to its slower goldfish and larger dependance on creature damage, but it still seems positioned well enough in a Rock/BUG meta.

    EDIT: There's also UR Delver, which is sort of like a cross between Sligh and blue-ish, although I personally feel that UR Delver is just a worse version of both RUG Delver an RUW Sligh.
    Who Said Blue = counterbalance?

    Just because Ol' Countertop with Goofy and todays Miracle share both in my listing? Counterbalance was battled with krosan grip before Decay. The Point is: Blue as Part of Combo Decks WILL tear BGx decks apart sooner or later. Therefore "blue goes nowhere"
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    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  7. #4307
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Drago, I'm not sure that you understand exactly what I'm talking about when I reference Sligh.

    Sligh does not do poorly against UW Control; it does poorly against UW with Counterbalance. As Abrupt Decay pushes Counterbalance back out of favor (like it was for several years prior to Terminus because of AEther Vial Aggro, mainly Merfolk), Sligh goes back to beating UW Control (aka Stoneblade).

    Sligh does not do poorly against combo. Sligh goldfishes turn 3, which is faster than SNT, and forces Storm combo to utilize a different engine than Ad Nauseum (like PiF, which is susceptible to graveyard hate). You also forget that Sligh is no longer a mono red, R/g, or R/g/w deck. Delver changes the dynamics by making Sligh a R/u/x deck.

    My Sligh list runs Daze MD and Pierce/Fluster SB, which gives Sligh a way to interact with combo outside of just their life total. Dryad Militant also gives Sligh a way to interact with their graveyard.

    I'm not sure what concept of Sligh you're thinking about, but it's obviously not the same concept that I'm talking about. As soon as Counterbalance starts dropping in numbers, Sligh is in a fantastic position. Just because you don't enjoying games where people turn guys sideways and fling burn spells is irrelevant to whether or not it is an effective strategy.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  8. #4308
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Who Said Blue = counterbalance?

    Just because Ol' Countertop with Goofy and todays Miracle share both in my listing? Counterbalance was battled with krosan grip before Decay. The Point is: Blue as Part of Combo Decks WILL tear BGx decks apart sooner or later. Therefore "blue goes nowhere"
    I was explaining why Sligh was becoming a well-positioned deck in the meta, and you replied by saying that non-blue decks don't do well... but Sligh should be running blue anyways. I did misinterpret what you said though, as I thought you meant that Sligh would not do well because of the presence of blue, which is why I said that Counterbalance blue matchups were the only bad blue matchups. Whether blue goes somewhere or goes nowhere has no effect on the validity of Sligh, which was my underlying point I guess.
    Last edited by Hanni; 01-08-2013 at 10:11 PM.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  9. #4309

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    I'm not so sure. Anytime I think a non-Blue deck would be well positioned in the metagame their numbers never surge. I think this has a lot to do with players erroneously thinking that only Blue decks are good, can win tournaments, etc.
    Hanni is promoting Sligh as viable as a Blue deck, with 4x Brainstorm 4x Daze 4x Delver. It's basically UR Delver with Steppe Lynx.

    Which, to no one's surprise, is indeed a better deck than stinky old non-Brainstorm running Sligh.

    Combo is blue, Sligh is blue, Mid-range is blue, and Control is blue. Da be dee da ba doo.

    Chapin was right, even the "fish" are starting to realize it. Too bad blue mana base costs 3-4x the nonblue mana base or more of the "fish" might join in, too. Saving several hundred bucks is probably why half these other decks even show up to an SCG.
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  10. #4310
    bruizar
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.


  11. #4311
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think when Wizards designs an obvious anti-blue/anti-control card only to name it "The Last Troll" it should give you some food for thought

  12. #4312
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bilb_o View Post
    I think when Wizards designs an obvious anti-blue/anti-control card only to name it "The Last Troll" it should give you some food for thought
    Lmao i never made the connection.

  13. #4313

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FieryBalrog View Post
    Combo is blue, Sligh is blue, Mid-range is blue, and Control is blue.
    Which brings us back to the idea that blue is overpowered because a single color is now making up every archtype.

    How to make a Legacy deck:


    4 Brainstorm
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    Congratz, you have a Legacy deck!

  14. #4314
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Thrun, the Last Troll: Hate blue, can't counter me, ban Brainstorm, trolololo!


  15. #4315

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bilb_o View Post
    Thrun, the Last Troll: Hate blue, can't counter me, ban Brainstorm, trolololo!

    lol

    At least WotC is aware of how good blue is in the eternal formats that aren't Modern. Cavern of Souls is a indication of that.

  16. #4316
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    lol

    At least WotC is aware of how good blue is in the eternal formats that aren't Modern. Cavern of Souls is a indication of that.
    Because standard is an eternal format? Cavern was printed because of Mana Leak and blue dominance in standard, not that CoS doesn't help tribal strategies in legacy but that isn't the reason why it was printed.

  17. #4317
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    The format is starting to saturate with BUG, BGW, and 4c Deathrite Shaman decks. I'd hardly say that Sligh is dead... the format just hasn't adjusted. We're just now getting over the Counterbalance-Miracles era, so it hasn't had enough time to shift yet. Once Abrupt Decay knocks Counterbalance out of the way, and everyone is rocking Rock/BUG decks, Zoo and Sligh decks could very well make a comeback. Sligh moresoe than Zoo, since I expect Terminus is going to continue to be played large quantities over the long haul.
    Well stated...I agree with this. I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing. I recognize that Sligh/Zoo could make a comeback, but I don't think it will become a staple in the DtB like it was for so long. I think it will rotate in, then rotate out again (same as Dredge, Merfolk, etc.) This is what I mean by a meta-game deck: it jumps in to prey on the meta-game, then adjustment happens and it's gone again.
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  18. #4318

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So this was posted the other day. He has an interesting take on things.

    http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...stricted-list/
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  19. #4319
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    So this was posted the other day. He has an interesting take on things.

    http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...stricted-list/
    I can't take this article seriously when he even considers that DRS is bannable (just because it enables a deck that tramples over his favorite U/W Miracle deck).

    But the worst offender is even considering the unbanning of Flash. Stuff like Ooze, RIP and DRS won't save you when they get a reliable T1 (or T2 on the play) kill with tons of counter back-up. Flash is simply too fast and has too much protection to be healthy for the format, even with Mystical Tutor gone.

  20. #4320
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I stopped reading when he considered Earthcraft to be too strong. Because the combo is tutorable by Enlightened Tutor. Yeah right, like RiP/Helm wasn't.
    Actually I lied. I read the whole thing and I disagree on EVERY conclusion whe comes to. Strange thing that is.

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