View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #61
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuma View Post

    This isn't significantly better than what Elves! currently does with Birchlore Rangers and Heritage Druid. Besides, Elves! is a bad deck. Why would it be bad for the format to make it better?
    While I totally agree that earthcraft can come off the list, Elves! or at least Survival Elves, which to my knowledge is the only variant that sees real play, doesn't run Birchlore Rangers or Heritage Druid. And it's not a bad deck.


    I may have misspoke on this one, but is this really more broken than Goblin Lackey? It's nuts with Food Chain, but I have a hard time believing Food Chain Goblins will wreck the format.
    I vote that you misspoke. Recruiter might just be too good. When you sit him down with Ringleader, it starts looking really ugly.


    ...that requires you to wait a turn with a 1/1 in play. Also it's vulnerable to every form of hate in the format. I think it could come off the list.
    Eh. Plausible. It could come off the list.


    It might make Stax viable. Oh no!
    Bazaar would make stax viable. This I think will do little. I agree, off the list.


    I don't think Ichorid would run Entomb. What are you going to do, put a dredger in your yard with it?
    Thisthisthisthisthis. Entomb is terrible in Ichorid. If you unbanned Entomb and Dragon at the same time it might be a little bit dangerous, but if it's really gonna get broken, it's not going to be in Ichorid.


    Land destruction spells are already obsolete.
    I like sinkhole. The real reason that Gush shouldn't be unbanned is that it lets thresh dodge wasteland for the low, low cost of drawing two cards. Really. Try goldfishing a thresh list with Gush in it. It's really good.


    Time Spiral is only a free draw seven if you have six lands in play.
    Yea, this card sucks. Take it off the list.
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  2. #62

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Cards that could come off of the list would be:

    Land Tax (Always suggested, but never does)
    Dream Halls (Don't see how this gets broken.... maybe with Painter's Servant)
    Earthcraft (maybe)

    Cards that could get banned:

    I don't foresee anything getting banned. The results of events like Gen Con compared with GP Chicago show that there is a wide variety of decks in the format. CounterTop decks are not making up 1/4 + of the top eights at larger events so my guess is that nothing with get banned. The arguments are all over this thread as to why combo is checked by CounterTop and there are some good reasons and deck out there that will keep CounterTop decks in check.

    *As an addendum to the aforementioned prediction on banning, if WotC paid more attention to Legacy, like by having more events, they might see the disparities that some of the members are discussing here. However, looking at the DtB forum and the numbers put up by Nihil, it would seem to me as though there is a healthy distribution of the archetypes and nothing seems to be overly dominating the format right now.

  3. #63
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda View Post
    Bazaar would make stax viable. This I think will do little. I agree, off the list.
    What do you mean "would make Stax viable"? Stax is already viable. 4th place isn't too shabby considering most of the decks in the "Decks to Beat" forum didn't even place in the top 8.
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  4. #64
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    What do you mean "would make Stax viable"? Stax is already viable. 4th place isn't too shabby considering most of the decks in the "Decks to Beat" forum didn't even place in the top 8.
    You quote saying that most of the decks to beat did not make top 8 is rather deceptive, making it seem like the top 8 did nor reflect the DTB forum. A less misleading way to put it would be to say that 5 of the top 8 were decks from the DTB forum.

    If you look at legacy tournaments nearly every single one has a couple of rogue decks that top 8. Just because a deck can top 8 one time does not make it good, the deck as top top 8 consistently to be considered good. And yes I am in complete agreement that Stax is not viable, even the worst of decks can get a few luck pairing and a few lucky draws/opponents getting bad draws to make it into the finals. The game has too much luck based to stop that from happening every time.

  5. #65
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fossil4182 View Post
    *As an addendum to the aforementioned prediction on banning, if WotC paid more attention to Legacy, like by having more events, they might see the disparities that some of the members are discussing here. However, looking at the DtB forum and the numbers put up by Nihil, it would seem to me as though there is a healthy distribution of the archetypes and nothing seems to be overly dominating the format right now.
    Legacy players buy into their own hype far too much to objectively analyze the format. My "Elves" experiment was largely successful: take an Extended deck, swap some few cards, and win without any effort. Or how about the accounts of Standard WW raping metagames? Saying Earthcraft is not a problem is ignoring that the card is ridiculously consistent in Elves, which is far from a "bad deck".

    FFS! I drew literally my entire deck on turn 2 playing the Legacy version.
    Here's an example of a T8 showing with Earthcraft Elves. Note: this is Classic MTGO format, but it technically is more powerful than Legacy due to demonic Tutor, Demonic Consultation, and Skullclamp. Earthcraft in the Elf decks is the enabler (mana engine).

    http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ecks/mol438671

    3 Elf decks, 2 C'Top decks, 2 Zoo decks, 1 BG Pox

  6. #66
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksilver View Post
    You quote saying that most of the decks to beat did not make top 8 is rather deceptive, making it seem like the top 8 did nor reflect the DTB forum. A less misleading way to put it would be to say that 5 of the top 8 were decks from the DTB forum.

    If you look at legacy tournaments nearly every single one has a couple of rogue decks that top 8. Just because a deck can top 8 one time does not make it good, the deck as top top 8 consistently to be considered good. And yes I am in complete agreement that Stax is not viable, even the worst of decks can get a few luck pairing and a few lucky draws/opponents getting bad draws to make it into the finals. The game has too much luck based to stop that from happening every time.
    Sorry, you're quite right, I was unclear. What I meant was that "deck types" being represented in the top 8. So, for example, if the top 8 were all counter-top and then the decks to beat forum listed 8 decks to beat, it would seem a little skewed to say 8 of the top 8 were from the decks to beat, when in reality, it was one deck, over and over and over.

    My point was decks like Zoo, ANT, Merfolk, Goblins, and Landstill (that's 5 of the DTB) were not in the top 8, but Stax did make it. I'm not saying you don't need to slog through a hell of a lot of those five decks on your way up to top 8 (or that one tournament necessarily reflects a whole world wide meta), I'm just saying that Stax is already viable when compared to the relative success of the other decks around the format.

    I hope that was a bit clearer.
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  7. #67

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Should be banned - Sensai's Divining Top. Guilty of too much power by association. It was fine in Standard, but combined with fetchlands, Ponders, Brainstorms, and (in particular) Counterbalance, it's too damn strong.

    Note that the same effect, for much more mana, has existed for a loooong time (Elemental Augury, Soothsaying) and gone unplayed. This is, to me, a good example of "lower the cost enough, and it becomes too strong".

    I'd leave (storm) Combo unbanned for now (Tendrils, Lion's Eye, etc). Let's see if removing Counterbalance *does* have it take over the format. Frankly, I doubt it.

    Should come off - Land Tax is an interesting tool that introduces deckbuilding dilemmas - how many basic land? How do I put them back? How do I compensate for having no / limited land? I freely admit it'd be a new deck, and I don't know how anyone who hasn't played with it or against it knows what that deck would be like.

    (Yes, yes, Parfait. It's been a few years. There's new cards. Etc, etc, etc.)

    (...note that it only comes back if the Top leaves. Free shuffles for Top is bad news.)
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  8. #68

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Honestly I don't know how anyone can really think unbanning Goblin Recruiter is right at all. The card is barely a creature. If you can STP it then it's already too late. It's only really vulnerable to countermagic and the occasional discard spell.

    If we look at formats like PT:Tinker where you still had Food Chain Goblins in the T8 of that absolutely degenerate format... that says quite a bit about the power level of this card. Best case scenario FCG squashes the viability of non-Goblin Aggro decks.
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  9. #69
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere View Post
    Should be banned - Sensai's Divining Top. Guilty of too much power by association. It was fine in Standard, but combined with fetchlands, Ponders, Brainstorms, and (in particular) Counterbalance, it's too damn strong.

    Note that the same effect, for much more mana, has existed for a loooong time (Elemental Augury, Soothsaying) and gone unplayed. This is, to me, a good example of "lower the cost enough, and it becomes too strong".

    I'd leave (storm) Combo unbanned for now (Tendrils, Lion's Eye, etc). Let's see if removing Counterbalance *does* have it take over the format. Frankly, I doubt it.

    Should come off - Land Tax is an interesting tool that introduces deckbuilding dilemmas - how many basic land? How do I put them back? How do I compensate for having no / limited land? I freely admit it'd be a new deck, and I don't know how anyone who hasn't played with it or against it knows what that deck would be like.

    (Yes, yes, Parfait. It's been a few years. There's new cards. Etc, etc, etc.)

    (...note that it only comes back if the Top leaves. Free shuffles for Top is bad news.)
    I would love to see Land Tax available, it + Scroll Rack?

    About the Top comment, I dunno, I think Counterbalance keeps combo in check pretty well. I prefer Landstill so half the spells that we play are out of reach of Counterbalance anyways.

  10. #70
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    ]
    My point was decks like Zoo, ANT, Merfolk, Goblins, and Landstill (that's 5 of the DTB) were not in the top 8, but Stax did make it. I'm not saying you don't need to slog through a hell of a lot of those five decks on your way up to top 8 (or that one tournament necessarily reflects a whole world wide meta), I'm just saying that Stax is already viable when compared to the relative success of the other decks around the format.

    No. Stax is significantly worse against the field in general than a large number of other archetypes. So much so that playing it over another deck that has better matchups all-around is a mistake. In order for Stax to not be a mistake, one must think that the meta has shifted in such a way that you will face only your relatively strong matchups every round. This is extraordinarily unlikely.

    Edit for real content:

    I voted that LED be Banned. Not for any real reason, I just don't like devoting 4+ sideboard slots to dredge. So I guess my argument is that it's restricting the design space of my sideboard? In reality I don't think they're going to do anything, and I don't really have a problem with that. It wouldn't be so bad to never see dredge again though. I don't think I'd hate that.
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  11. #71
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Secret sharing time:

    I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

    Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.
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  12. #72

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Secret sharing time:

    I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

    Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.
    QFT

    Seriously, it's Legacy, the format doesn't turn over every 3 months, mess around with the banned list once in a while.

  13. #73

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Secret sharing time:

    I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

    Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.
    +1

  14. #74
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Secret sharing time:

    I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

    Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.
    -1. I'd hate to be another sheep.

    If it's not broken, don't fix it. As I've said a million times before: Legacy is a healthy format. There's no need to 'grow balls' and potentially screw up the format. What's the need?

    If making prison decks more viable is what you want, you should think again - they're not exactly fun to play against and it would cost Legacy popularity.
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  15. #75

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Secret sharing time:

    I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

    Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.
    Actually, you can use the sparseness of tournaments to make the counter argument to this. If you've only got 2 or 3 or even 1 big event a year, do you really want to waste it with some nonsense like GP: Flash? Where every single deck and the entire tournament is essentially defined by one single card in one very specific deck?

    I do hope the list gets shaken up some, but I don't think they should just unban something and "see what happens".

    Earthcraft would be my prime choice of this as an example. Seriously, if you haven't played against/with an Elves! deck on modo classic running it, you really don't get how strong it is in that deck.

  16. #76

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    If making prison decks more viable is what you want, you should think again - they're not exactly fun to play against and it would cost Legacy popularity.
    Same goes for controll and Storm combo. There's nothing wrong with unbanning cards to make other archtype's more viable, like metalworker (Make MUD viable) WGD (obviously the combo but it would suck so i don't know how viable you call that) and hermit druid (1 card cephalid breakfast, but it has summoning sicknes sow...)

    I mean in a format where creature removal is playde so heavy as in legacy, creature's are hardly a problem (except for the occasional conpmlain about Goyf).

    Take welder and metalworker for example, they see a large amount (welder more then worker).
    While worker is banned, Welder see's only marginal play in welder survival. Even stax doesn't play it because of the amount of removal there is in the format. So why not unban Metalworker.


    All in a nutshell, I think wizards should make it their policy to keep the banned list as small as possible. Legacy is an eternal format FFS, it is cool because we can play with "almost' every card ever printed, so make a point of making the "almost" part as small as possible.

  17. #77
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Hermit Druid by itself is vulnerable. The problem is that if you give it haste it totally avoids removal and also accelerates the deck by one turn, and that any deck playing it can pack easily +20 combo protection spells, which is what made flash broken in the first place (1 card combo, *2 mana total, combo takes almost no slots in the deck, +20 protection spells).
    Rough decklists (made in five minutes) of both strategies were tested in the Hermit Druid thread and those decklists were already insanely good. Just because you can't see the danger doesn't mean it's safe to unban.

    *Actually, Hermit Druid is to activate, but whatever.

  18. #78

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    -1. I'd hate to be another sheep.

    If it's not broken, don't fix it. As I've said a million times before: Legacy is a healthy format. There's no need to 'grow balls' and potentially screw up the format. What's the need?
    qft
    You WILL lose people in those three months. If you want to know what would be possible by going nuts, organise some casual Legacy tournaments for you and your friends with different B&R lists.

  19. #79
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    GP Flash was actually fairly interesting as an exercise in how to break the most broken combo Wizards has ever made.

    But we don't have a GP coming up, and most cards on the banned list don't come anywhere near the power level of Flash.

    I look at Vintage with goddamn envy. Wizards is constantly tinkering with the Vintage list in order to try and find more dynamic configurations. Sure, some of their moves, like unbanning Gush, turn out to be bad ideas. They lead to a brief period of dominance and then they get banned again. Is it the end of the world? No. It just means anyone with a double digit pulse can actually follow and enjoy the format.

    What evidence is there to suggest that anyone would be lost? Does Vintage lose people, or has it attracted more people with the shaking up of the format? Did Legacy lose people over Flash or did it draw attention to the format?

    Here's the thing;

    When they first separated the list, everyone- and I mean everyone, whether you were for or against the changes- said the cards they chose to ban and unban were random as fuck. People were deeply upset that they banned cards that weren't even a blip on the 1.5 radar like Oath, Land Tax and Hermit Druid, while leaving off tutors and fast mana that enabled Tendrils-combo to exist in the format for the first time.

    Even Wizards themselves said that the list was just an asspull, trying out a few things and saving tinkering for a later date.

    It's five years later. Legacy has, by my count, endured a total of five changes. One of those was the banning of Flash, a card that only existed, functionally, for a month. One of those was the banning of Imperial Seal, which didn't actually legally exist in the format prior to being banned. One card banned, Shahrazad, saw no play and was banned due to speculative hypothetical asshattery. Two cards unbanned, Mind over Matter and Replenish, have seen scant fringe play.

    No other format with a wide cardpool has received so little development attention, even the casual formats like Prismatic. Legacy "works" in that the same deck that was the best strategy two years ago is still the best strategy, and other decks have some relevant chance of competing with said best deck.

    It's also boring as fuck.

    Nothing bad would happen from three months that are actually distinguishable in some way from the three months preceding them in Legacy play.
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  20. #80
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    I want Sensei's Divining Top banned. No, I do not think it is too powerful of a card. No, I do not think that Counterbalance is a metagame breaking deck. I want it banned for this reason:



    The card slows all games down to a crawl. It's really frustrating. Yet, you can't really call a judge or accuse people of "stalling" because they can simply say "I'm thinking" and when they're looking at three new cards and have the option of using the Top to switch with one of them, how can you argue? Throw in fetchlands so that they could very well be looking at a new set of three cards and just UGH. Plus it comes out on the first turn. If I'm playing a slower deck, like MUC and they play a first turn Top, there's a good chance that match is going to a draw if it goes three games.
    Quote Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo View Post
    Testing is garbage. I am not saying do not do it. I play test, to see how a deck runs. I do not play test to get any kind of real knowledge of a particular deck.

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