All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

Snip - Removed flames.

Hating on storm and S&T archetypes, but proposing to pump Delver decks with the Gushbond-engine, move Vintage Dredge to Legacy, pushing turn 1 Lodestones/Trinishpheres and turning creatures in the format as a whole ad absurdum via Oath, is the least thoughtful suggestion pile I have read here for quite some years. Switching out strategies which present problems for creature-centric decks with MUCH MORE dominant ones to oppress the same decks is plain stupid

[HrishiQQ]

I am NOT saying that Oath would not be a powerful deck here. I play against and with Oath decks every week. In fact, with access to 4 Brainstorm/Ponder it has the potential to be even more consistent than the Vintage version. All I did say was that it would definitely be a card that would shake up the legacy metagame. Unbanning something like Mind Twist would do literally nothing.

Also Cage does a lot to stop Oath's power. Show and Tell is almost necessary for Oath decks to function post-board. It's worth noting that, even if it's not a reason to unban. Vintage decks also get extra value out of Oathing a Griselbrand with Yawgmoth's Will so you can actually reuse all the cards you've milled away. There are many things to consider when looking at Oath decks in Legacy.

I must also point out that a lot of the problems you have with Oath (and indeed, Show and Tell) is the existence of Griselbrand, which is what this exercise was out to say in the first place. A flying lifelinking Yawgmoth's Bargain with legs is legal, but Survival is too good for the format? Come on.

[btm10]

I am NOT saying that Oath would not be a powerful deck here. I play against and with Oath decks every week. In fact, with access to 4 Brainstorm/Ponder it has the potential to be even more consistent than the Vintage version. All I did say was that it would definitely be a card that would shake up the legacy metagame. Unbanning something like Mind Twist would do literally nothing.

Also Cage does a lot to stop Oath's power. Show and Tell is almost necessary for Oath decks to function post-board. It's worth noting that, even if it's not a reason to unban. Vintage decks also get extra value out of Oathing a Griselbrand with Yawgmoth's Will so you can actually reuse all the cards you've milled away. There are many things to consider when looking at Oath decks in Legacy.

I must also point out that a lot of the problems you have with Oath (and indeed, Show and Tell) is the existence of Griselbrand, which is what this exercise was out to say in the first place. A flying lifelinking Yawgmoth's Bargain with legs is legal, but Survival is too good for the format? Come on.

Seriously, read back a few pages. Several people, including me, have argued for unbannings. The proposed unbannings we're discussing here aren't on-power with Legacy, they're insane. I'd like to see Misstep come off the banned list; I'd like to see Survival, Earthcraft, Vise, and Mind Twist come off as well. But Bazaar? Oath? Mana Drain? People complain about blue already, but Drain would push it to new heights. The Yawgmoth's Will/Oath interaction isn't particularly relevant if we're talking about the control Oath build - you just Blessing your graveyard back into your library. And there's no shortage of creatures that make Oath untenable in Legacy, Griselbrand is just the most egregious.

[Mr.C]

If this blue domination trend continues, Brainstorm *will* get the axe.

[AggroControl]

If this blue domination trend continues, Brainstorm *will* get the axe.

I think it's a foregone conclusion at this point that something blue is going to get banned. The question is whether WotC bans the right card or bans several cards that are probably not severely overpowered in the absence of the one card.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Ban Brainstorm, Unban Mystical Tutor.

[iamajellydonut]

I think it's a foregone conclusion at this point that something blue is going to get banned. The question is whether WotC bans the right card or bans several cards that are probably not severely overpowered in the absence of the one card.

It's incredibly doubtful that anything at all will be banned any time soon unless a new set brings about a dominating engine, but maybe if you come up with actual reasoning and and present it in a concise and organized fashion with statistics they might listen.

[btm10]

It's incredibly doubtful that anything at all will be banned any time soon unless a new set brings about a dominating engine, but maybe if you come up with actual reasoning and and present it in a concise and organized fashion with statistics they might listen.

This.I sort of fear a ban right before GP New Jersey to 'shake up' the format, probably of Brainstorm, but that fear is irrational given all of the Brainstorm swag SCG is selling for the event.

[bakofried]

I want to hurt the 'blue shell' without hurting Storm too much, but I also want Survival back. Ban Brainstorm, Unban Mystical Tutor and Survival of the Fittest.

[Darkenslight]

This.I sort of fear a ban right before GP New Jersey to 'shake up' the format, probably of Brainstorm, but that fear is irrational given all of the Brainstorm swag SCG is selling for the event.

I'd consider going a slightly different route, though BS is the Big Issue:

Ban:

Delver
TNN
Show and Tell

Unban:

Black Vise
Survival of the Fittest

My reasoning (however shaky) is thus:

Delver - Is the wrong color, plain and simple. AS a Red card, it would be far less likely to be played. The fact that it pitches to Force, as well as being a hyper-aggressive one-drop in the primary color of tempo control.
TNN - Facing down one of these is just unfun, especially when equipped with a Jitte. Whilst there is hate played for it, it's effectively confined into two colors.
Show and Tell - Because permanents have gotten a lot better overall, through the printings of Emrakul, Griselbrand and Omniscience, it's getting to the point where this one-card combo has to go.

Black Vise - whilst there's some potential for unfun starts with a set of Vise available, it feels like it's time to start punishing decks that hoard their cards more.
Survival - a very powerful tutor engine, but it's worth a trial unban, to see if it can come off the list permanently.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm as "brainstorm is the true overpowered card" as the next guy but here's the only thing I can see happening at all (and I'd give it 50:50 between this and nothing happening)

Banned:
Delver of Secrets

BS is the "problem card" but just taking out the Delver would bring back non-blue aggro, or at least make blue not as impressive at it, which would significantly shake up the metagame. Yes, TNN is a problem and most importantly, unfun to play against, but it's a newly printed card and admitting a mistake isn't something WotC readily does with the banned list.

[Zombie]

Ban:
TNN
Council's Judgment
[Griselbrand, Emrakul, Omniscience, Jin-Gitaxias]

Longer list, better results IMO.

[Barook]

Ban:
TNN
Council's Judgment
[Griselbrand, Emrakul, Omniscience, Jin-Gitaxias]

Longer list, better results IMO.

Council's Judgment is a dumb design, but it has no business being banned.

I'm as "brainstorm is the true overpowered card" as the next guy but here's the only thing I can see happening at all (and I'd give it 50:50 between this and nothing happening)

Banned:
Delver of Secrets

BS is the "problem card" but just taking out the Delver would bring back non-blue aggro, or at least make blue not as impressive at it, which would significantly shake up the metagame. Yes, TNN is a problem and most importantly, unfun to play against, but it's a newly printed card and admitting a mistake isn't something WotC readily does with the banned list.

Some Delver was always one of the, if not THE topdeck of format, depending on the month.

But don't be fooled, non-blue aggro just doesn't come back because Delver is gone. It still can't race combo effectively and it still gets destroyed by Terminus, another Brainstorm deck (unless you play Goblins or whatever).

[testing32]

If this blue domination trend continues, Brainstorm *will* get the axe.

Everything is fine. 7/8 brainstorm deck is completely healthy. Don't say otherwise or else I will tell you to go play modern.


Banning BS and unbanning mystical is a great suggestion btw.

[Barook]

Unbanning Mystical for what purpose?

I've written an e-mail to Erik Lauer (who's responsible for the Banned list, among other people, iirc) how he feels about the persistent ~70% Brainstorm reprentation in Top 8s.

I doubt that I'm going get an answer, but somebody might get an answer about the general topic if enough people bother to contact him via his Wizards E-Mail or his Twitter account.

Be it on topic of Brainstorm and his view on the current situation, potential unbannings (if any), etc. - let's at least show him that we still care instead of Wizards not giving a fuck about what happens to the format itself.

[bakofried]

Tweeted him. I actually really think a ban on Brainstorm, unban on Survival and Mystical would be awesome.

[cab0747]

As someone who didn't start following Legacy until after Delver was introduced, I would be interested to see what the format would look like without the bug-man. Not that I want to see it, I am just interested in what it would look like now.

Probably a lot more combo? Storm, SnT, Omnitell?

Back on topic: With brainstorm being a pillar of the Legacy format, I cannot see them banning it any time soon. However, it is clear that blue is the dominant color in the format and that Brainstorm is the card that most of the 'dominating' decks (SnT, UWR Delver, Miracles) share. It is a tough call, but before Wizards breaks out the ban-hammers, I would really like an attempts at some more Brainstorm hate instead.

One thing that I think some people have looked past is the Brainstorm hate that we got recently in Eidolon of the Great Revel. It is a shame that it is seeing play only in Burn, which is an unpopular deck. With this being one of the only cards (we could throw Spirit of the Labyrinth in here too) that hurt constant Brainstorms, people aren't scared to cast the card. I think more hate to the constant Brainstorm/Ponder-ing would be a better solution. Let's explore some options before we make a drastic change to the format.

If we use the 'Brainstorm-hate' strategy, until we see some more hate printed, blue will dominate. However, it is not like other decks cant push through right now. We saw a Jund list make it to the finals in an SCG open recently. Burn has been putting up some good numbers lately(although I think some people might take a meta infested with Brainstorm over a Burn-filled meta). Death and Taxes has proven itself to be a VERY real deck right now. Elves is making a pretty nice comeback too (although on MODO this is probably because Cradles are now far less expensive). Again, this is NOT a section to defend Brainstorm, I am simply saying that the card isn't making every deck that doesn't play it a poor choice.

Edit 2 (non-Brainstorm ban discussion): I could see SDT being banned just for timing reasons. However, I would not want to see Miracles disappear completely.

[Dice_Box]

I do not see Top being banned at all. If timing was going to be the reason, it would be gone already.

[cab0747]

I do not see Top being banned at all. If timing was going to be the reason, it would be gone already.

You are probably correct. If they were concerned about timing, the card would have been dealt with already.

[Vicar in a tutu]

The problem with banning Delver of Secrets is that combo (especially Sneak & Show) still crushes non-blue aggro, so banning Delver won't suddenly make Zoo a thing. The only thing I like about Delver-decks is that they prey on combo. Banning the best clock against combo doesn't strike me as wise. Besides, Delver of Secrets becomes slightly less good if Brainstorm is banned (Terminus also becomes slightly less good if Brainstorm gets the axe). With the release of Khans of Tarkir, I would:

* Ban Brainstorm
* Unban Black Vise