All B/R update speculation.

[Noctalor]

Brainstorm and Ponder are both better and more dominant than either. Why aren't they banned? The answer is lack of management of the format. Legacy isn't a Pro Tour format. Period. That's the only reason your all still unmulliganing for U and a fetch, putting Terminus back on top after opening with 2 in your hand, and laughing when you get Duressed. If Legacy was played at any high level they'd be snap banned, no non basic land has ever 32/32'ed a constructed GP and not been banned in any format but legacy. Actually ... has any card ever 32/32'ed a GP besides Derpstorm? I haven't played standard since Fires of Yavimaya. Did Jitte 32/32? Skullclamp?

I think stoneforge and jace did, not sure tho, but their presence in t2 was like 95% of the meta

[Dice_Box]

It is worth pointing out, TC did manifest itself as the core of what became the "Best Deck". Dig has not had quite the same impact on any single deck. That could make a difference.

[jrsthethird]

Brainstorm and Ponder are both better and more dominant than either. Why aren't they banned? The answer is lack of management of the format. Legacy isn't a Pro Tour format. Period. That's the only reason your all still unmulliganing for U and a fetch, putting Terminus back on top after opening with 2 in your hand, and laughing when you get Duressed. If Legacy was played at any high level they'd be snap banned, no non basic land has ever 32/32'ed a constructed GP and not been banned in any format but legacy. Actually ... has any card ever 32/32'ed a GP besides Derpstorm? I haven't played standard since Fires of Yavimaya. Did Jitte 32/32? Skullclamp?

You'll love this article:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...n-8-2014-11-25

As of that printing, Brainstorm hit 28/32 copies in 2 Grand Prix: Paris and New Jersey, both in 2014. That tied it with Mana Leak, the first Instant to do that, at GP Dallas-Fort Worth in 2011. But Kyoto this year put Brainstorm over the top.

Interestingly, other cards that have 28/32'd a tournament are

Rishadan Port
Sylvan Caryatid
Courser of Kruphix
Grim Monolith
Tinker

And the mighty 32/32:

Preordain (GP Dallas-Fort Worth 2011)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (same)
Brainstorm (GP Kyoto 2015)

No card has done 28/32 more than once. Brainstorm did it THREE TIMES. And it will happen again.

And you're correct, BTW. Jace was banned in Standard after that GP. Preordain was fine for Standard, but a month after Modern was created it was banned there before it could put up those numbers again. But Brainstorm? Who cares.

[Crimhead]

It is worth pointing out, TC did manifest itself as the core of what became the "Best Deck". Dig has not had quite the same impact on any single deck. That could make a difference.

Same situation for BS and Ponder - they support many different strategies in a format with no clear "best deck". You can't just look t power level and density without considering the texture of the meta-game (aka, variety of play-styles and strategies)

This is consistently ignored by folks who accuse WotC of not caring. Maybe WotC care about strategic diversity but not colour equilibrium or single card density? Lots of players feel this way, so is it such a stretch to think WotC might also?

[Dice_Box]

Same situation for BS and Ponder - they support many different strategies in a format with no clear "best deck". You can't just look t power level and density without considering the texture of the meta-game (aka, variety of play-styles and strategies)

This is consistently ignored by folks who accuse WotC of not caring. Maybe WotC care about strategic diversity< but not colour equilibrium or single card density? Lots of players feel this way, so why not WotC?

Please stick to the conversation at hand and don't try and goad others into conversations on Brainstorm when it's not being discussed. Let's not shoehorn everything into the same worthless direction as it's only going to raise tempers and stifle any real conversation that could happen here.

The topic has changed, thank fuck, let's go with it and leave sleeping dogs lie.

[Lemnear]

What about donating 5$ to the Gamers For Gamers Fund evertime someone dares to move the discussion to "...but blue!", "color equality" or "buh ... brainstorm" in this thread?

[Dice_Box]

But then what would we spend on cards?

[Crimhead]

The topic has changed, thank fuck, let's go with it and leave sleeping dogs lie.

I think you missed the comments directly above my post, and also three posts above that.

I'm not trying to goad anybody - and frankly I don't accept blame. People will continue to bring up Brainstorm as long as it remains legal.

Let's not shoehorn everything into the same worthless direction as it's only going to raise tempers and stifle any real conversation that could happen here.

What's stifling conversion is people who constantly ignore any criticism of card density as the only measure of a cards impact on the format; despite the flaws in this metric being constantly pointed out to them.

Also, if people notice their tempers rising they need to do what grown-ups do and control their own emotions (lest their emotions control them).

These are the problems with this thread; I don't understand why you'd rather point the finger at me.

[Dice_Box]

I ain't talking about Brainstorm, suddenly I am quoted and the topic is all about Brainstorm. I don't understand what there is to misunderstand. Since you did it, that's where the finger goes. Simple really.

Anyway topic I was talking about was Dig. Got anything productive to say on that topic or is Brainstorm the only word on your mind? Because a one track mind on that fucking card is what I see as the problem with this thread.

[Lemnear]

3 posts and already 10$ for Gamers for Gamers fund! Dear mods, this thread needs a donate-button!

[Crimhead]

I ain't talking about Brainstorm, suddenly I am quoted and the topic is all about Brainstorm.

Three of the previous six comments had been about BS, so I fail to understand how you though we were collectively past the topic. You made an excellent point about DTT, and I feel the same reasoning applies to BS/Ponder (which were also being discussed; and in the very context of being bigger culprits than Dig).

I don't understand what there is to misunderstand. Since you did it, that's where the finger goes. Simple really.

Have you read Needles' posts, or do you have him blocked? He's the reason we can't discuss DTT over the last several posts - he's been steadily interrupting to remind us that BS (and Ponder) see more play than DTT and are therefore what we ought to be discussing. You seem to have no problem when he drags the conversation back that way, but you're all over me if I engage him. That's what I don't get.

Edit - I do get that you don't seem to like me very much and that you wish I'd stop posting here altogether. I'm sorry if you feel that way, but ultimately it's your problem not mine.

Anyway topic I was talking about was Dig. Got anything productive to say on that topic or is Brainstorm the only word on your mind?

My thoughts on DTT:

• I would probably enjoy Legacy more without DTT - as would probably most players.
• That said, I believe the format is too healthy and diverse (strategically) to warrant a ban of any kind.
• I think there is a good chance WotC will ban DTT anyway (and I'm not sure how they'll spin the ban).
• If DTT is banned on the basis of evaluating it as top tier card draw and/or tutoring (which are banned on principle), I could accept that happily.
• I believe unbanning Twist, Vise, Earthcraft, and possibly Recruiter or Frantic Search is what WotC/DCI should be doing with the banned list (maybe not all at once). Those cards could potentially cause a shake-up, and only after the meta settles should bans even be considered.

Because a one track mind on that fucking card is what I see as the problem with this thread.

I agree, and I don't tend to bring this card up myself. But I do challenge other peoples' complaints if I feel they are irrational and/or ignoring relevant criticism - that's how I roll. You seem to enjoy criticising me for doing this - that's how you roll. Whatever floats your boat.

[Dice_Box]

My thoughts on DTT:
I would probably enjoy Legacy more without DTT - as would probably most players.
That said, I believe the format is too healthy and diverse (strategically) to warrant a ban f any kind.
I think there is a good chance WotC will ban DTT anyway (and I'm not sure how they'll spin the ban).
If DTT is banned on the basis of evaluating it as top tier card draw and/or tutoring (which are banned on principle), I could accept that happily.
I believe unbanning Twist, Vise, Earthcraft, and possibly Recruiter or Frantic Search is what WotC/DCI should be doing with the banned list (maybe not all at once). Those cards could potentially cause a shake-up, and only after the meta settles should bans even be considered.

I think the removal of Dig would be a benefit and a loss. The benefits being that it's forcing the format more down a single directed path so losing it would be a bonus and it's power level I feel is above Legacy normal ceiling. (Subjective sure, but it's my view.) The loss though is that I do not feel Delve was the worst idea, only the effects on Eternal formats where not taken in to proper consideration and so the loss of another interesting card somewhat sucks. I am also not willing to state the format (Outside of my normal views of massive inbreeding) is in a bad way. Though if a certain mono Blue deck went away I would be happier. (Totally unbiased opinion based in no way on my deck choice...)

As for what would be unbanned, that drives me to sadness. Why the fuck do we have to wait for a banning to get something off that list. Up next, Earthcraft I hope.

[Nielsie]

Same situation for BS and Ponder - they support many different strategies in a format with no clear "best deck". You can't just look t power level and density without considering the texture of the meta-game (aka, variety of play-styles and strategies)

This is consistently ignored by folks who accuse WotC of not caring. Maybe WotC care about strategic diversity but not colour equilibrium or single card density? Lots of players feel this way, so is it such a stretch to think WotC might also?

Oh please, you can say the same for Ancestral Recall but last time I checked it was still banned. Or how about Mental Misstep?

The cantrip engine is just that: an engine. It's the most powerful engine in the game and perhaps some decks using this engine win with Delver, some do with Tendrils, some do with Stoneforge, some do with Jace and some do with Show-and-derp, the end result of their playstyle is very much defined by their engine: cantrip into my good stuff and win. Lately games are simply decided by who cantripped better. Very interesting games...

[menace13]

No card has done 28/32 more than once. Brainstorm did it THREE TIMES. And it will happen again.

And you're correct, BTW. Jace was banned in Standard after that GP. Preordain was fine for Standard, but a month after Modern was created it was banned there before it could put up those numbers again. But Brainstorm? Who cares.

Anyone who isn't partially lobotomized knows how much of a contradiction BS is to all ban criteria. You can bring up all the factors that have banned cards in many formats-including this one. All you will get is retarded argument by people too involved with their decks or complacent due to the familiarity of stagnation. The arguments are usually along the lines of: But, but... strategic diversity, bruh.

[Quasim0ff]

Anyone who isn't partially lobotomized knows how much of a contradiction BS is to all ban criteria. You can bring up all the factors that have banned cards in many formats-including this one. All you will get is retarded argument by people too involved with their decks or complacent due to the familiarity of stagnation. The arguments are usually along the lines of: But, but... strategic diversity, bruh.

What you fail to realise, is that strategic diversity is actually incredible valuable in a format. Survival, Mystical Tutor, TC all promoted a single strategy, Brainstorm doesn't.

[Zombie]

What you fail to realise, is that strategic diversity is actually incredible valuable in a format. Survival, Mystical Tutor, TC all promoted a single strategy, Brainstorm doesn't.

Uh, TC got incorporated into a variety of decks like Dig has done. Less so, but still.
Same applies to Survival: Just as Dig promotes small spell focused decks with the cantrip engine to fuel it, Survival promoted the use of creatures. Apart from that, you saw Survival decks utilize just about any strategy that reasonably uses creatures - tempo decks, midrange beatdown, dedicated combo. You know what the most interesting thing about it was? UG Tempo Survival was a thing, yet in the same exact Top8's people apparently decided to play straight Team America. Exact same strategy, different engine. Same happened with engine combo (Storm v. Ooze Survival). Right now nonblue decks play prison strategies and the main overlap between blue engine strategy space and non cantrip engine strategy space is engine combo, with Elves being increasingly a niche player in the meta.

[Quasim0ff]

Uh, TC got incorporated into a variety of decks like Dig has done. Less so, but still.
Same applies to Survival: Just as Dig promotes small spell focused decks with the cantrip engine to fuel it, Survival promoted the use of creatures. Apart from that, you saw Survival decks utilize just about any strategy that reasonably uses creatures - tempo decks, midrange beatdown, dedicated combo. You know what the most interesting thing about it was? UG Tempo Survival was a thing, yet in the same exact Top8's people apparently decided to play straight Team America. Exact same strategy, different engine. Same happened with engine combo (Storm v. Ooze Survival). Right now nonblue decks play prison strategies and the main overlap between blue engine strategy space and non cantrip engine strategy space is engine combo, with Elves being increasingly a niche player in the meta.

it might not have been clear: I am an opponent of Dig staying in the format, as that card limits viability of certain archetypes, and pushes cantrips over the edge. brainstorm doesn't. I do hope Dig gets banned, and I even find the card super fun (and broken, oppressive and every other negative/"positive")

[Dice_Box]

What you fail to realise, is that strategic diversity is actually incredible valuable in a format. Survival, Mystical Tutor, TC all promoted a single strategy, Brainstorm doesn't.

Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall and a Mox or two all promote different strategies, ain't saying they are safe or fair either. Diversity is not what I see in Blue, inbreeding is.

[Quasim0ff]

Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall and a Mox or two all promote different strategies, ain't saying they are safe or fair either.

So does Yawg Will, Tinker and Lingering souls. I can name cards too, that doesn't mean it's relevant for the discussion.

[Dice_Box]

So does Yawg Will, Tinker and Lingering souls. I can name cards too, that doesn't mean it's relevant for the discussion.

Oh but it is. You claim that Brainstorm is such a diversifying card, but in the end it's just a name. It's just a title. Black Lotus goes in a Diverse range of Decks, as does Recall. The argument is worthless. To say "It fits into 80% of the decks that are played (Or insert given number here) therefore it's fine seems like a silly argument. Because I know Black Lotus would also do something similar but I don't get the feeling that" But it is in a range of decks" would float anywhere when it comes to Lotus.

"But the format is so Diverse" is your opinion, "The format is inbreed" happens to be my own. Diversity is in the lense of the beholder in this case, because a large amount of people disagree that Legacy is in fact diverse right now. A fact hundreds of pages of shit bears out.

If you want to tell me that Brainstorm should not be Banned because it happens to slot nicely into anything with an Island in it, then I want to know why I can't have Lotus if that's the criteria we are setting ourselves. "It goes in so many things, so it must be ok."I feel is very flawed and, well I could make the same comment about the Moxen but that doesn't mean they should be legal.