All B/R update speculation.

[jrsthethird]

While his command of the rules was clearly not the best he was probably good at the other skills needed to do well in a tournament (i.e. when to mulligan, what to counter, ect)

How to luck?

All this aside, I'm pretty sure the cards safe to come off are Mind Twist and Earthcraft. Earthcraft would fit nicely in Enchantress, making it do what it wants to do faster by letting you untap lands that tap for 3+. Mind Twist can be seen as a "bad hymn to tourach" most of the time but it could serve nicely as hymn 5-8.

Recruiter!

Also, I doubt that Survival of the Fittest is as strong as it was... maybe that can come off too.

Vengevine Survival is essentially a turn 4 combo deck that's vulnerable to GY hate, Abrupt Decay, and the acceleration that makes it turn 4 is vulnerable to Bolt (in a UG build). Oh, and it wins through the attack phase, with two attacks. Strong in its consistency and versatility (especially shoved into a Nic Fit shell), but I don't think it pushes the speed of Legacy anymore. The metagame has more creature-based decks now which make an attack phase combo deck more interactive.

Would you be interested in showing up to a tournament w/ 100% belcher and oops all spells players?

At least I wouldn't be spending my whole day waiting for the Miracles douche to finish.

[iatee]

It's so cute when people confuse "strategy I don't like" with "bad luck-based deck".

Again, I think a good test of these things would be the 'what if everyone played the same deck' scenario. In which of those tournaments - regardless of how boring or not boring - would the pros regularly rise to the top? It obviously wouldn't be belcher tournaments, and it seems very unlikely that the skill premium would be very high if everyone were playing 8 rack style decks and just mind twisting each other. On the other hand, a mono BUG delver or mono-miracles tournament would work out great for the best players.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Again, I think a good test of these things would be the 'what if everyone played the same deck' scenario.'

This is a terrible metric. You suggesting it multiple times a page doesn't make it any better.

I'm only having fun in competitive Magic if you can't play they way you want.
Whatever deck you like disgusts me and all of it's pieces should be banned!

[iatee]

Hey, it's just the golden rule - don't impose a deck onto others if you wouldn't want to have to play against it yourself. If you can't find a way to have fun that meets that criteria you're probably just a troll.

Anyway this has gotten way off subject, let's talk about brainstorm again.

[nedleeds]

Would you be interested in showing up to a tournament w/ 100% belcher and oops all spells players?

What I'm interested in playing against clearly doesn't matter, it's personal preference as my mockery of your statement illustrated. I don't find a turn 3 Show and Tell into derp that much more or less miserable than being belched, I brought a non-Force of Will creature deck to an event and lost the roll so fuck me I guess. We're talking about 3 minutes invested in watching the show and chimp skillfully craft his 2 card derp combo with the dumb fucking cantrip that should have been banned vs. just derp derp belch it's not that different from the perspective of johnny mcdeadguy who lost the roll and didn't find Thoughtseize. Or trying to play vs. countertop game one on the draw without Abrupt Decay ... I'd rather grind my taint against sandpaper.

Regardless, your statement is tangential to the thread title. 100% Belcher and Oops all Dicks won't happen because

a) The deck(s) lack enough internal consistency to navigate a 9+ round event very often
b) Force of Will is a great but balanced Magic card and will continue to be played
c) These decks fold to hate so savagely because they fight on basically one axis and thus would be hated out if they gained a foothold

You bring up depth of play yet discount the control vs. control sub game of resolving Mind Twist. Given that it's been banned for 20 years and you likely aren't much older than that I don't blame you. Mind Twist could be safely unbanned and it would be an interesting addition, as a control mirror breaker, or a high risk high reward early play off fast mana. Your fear of a 'discard' deck is unwarranted, there are so many discard spells + LotV available that adding Mind Twist would do nothing. There are already better options. Like Smallpox, Hymn, pinpoint discard. If those decks see a slight surge it'll be because the delve blue is gone. But they'll never dominate because the blue cantrip engine just provides card quality and safety that a shitty fucking pox deck can't hope to compete with over 9+ rounds.

[iatee]

You do not need to explain to me why the mono-belcher meta will never happen, it was a theoretical scenario. Of course the decks fold to hate and counterspells - that's why they're jokes and basically exist just to troll people.

If you think that tapping out for a sorcery speed x spell is how you win a control mirror, hmmm, dunno what to tell you.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Hey, it's just the golden rule - don't impose a deck onto others if you wouldn't want to have to play against it yourself. If you can't find a way to have fun that meets that criteria you're probably just a troll.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude but what are you talking about?

Are you saying someone shouldn't play a combo deck because it isn't "fair" magic?

If you don't like decks like Belcher or Oops All spells, maybe you should consider branching out into other formats. What's even more funny is I never have problems with these decks - I've played against them many times over the years and although they're very explosive and can win instantly, they also have a very funny look on their face you cast a grafdiggers cage against the all spells player or FoW their belcher play, leaving them with nothing. Seriously, these decks are really not that hard to play against if you know what you're doing, unlike OmniTell where they could literally just combo off over top of whatever hate card you put into play with Show and Tell. Apples and Oranges...

[iatee]

"Not that hard to play against" is the point. Good job, you had grafdigger's cage and you drew it. I think that it's sad that magic's most complex format has matches that end like that. The oops all spells player just wasted the other person's time - assuming the other person actually showed up to play magic - even if they gave them a 30 second win.

And yes DTT-omni was insanely broken, hard to hate out and quite consistent...which is exactly why nobody is shedding tears for it.

[Michael Keller]

"Not that hard to play against" is the point. Good job, you had grafdigger's cage and you drew it. I think that it's sad that magic's most complex format has matches that end like that. The belcher player just wasted the other person's time - assuming the other person actually showed up to play magic - even if they gave them a 30 second win.

And yes DTT-omni was insanely broken, hard to hate out and quite consistent...which is exactly why nobody is shedding tears for it.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to label OmniTell variants with Dig Through Time as being "insanely broken." It was a very good deck, but far from that categorical level.

[RhoxWarMonk]

"Not that hard to play against" is the point. Good job, you had grafdigger's cage and you drew it. I think that it's sad that magic's most complex format has matches that end like that. The belcher player just wasted the other person's time - assuming the other person actually showed up to play magic - even if they gave them a 30 second win.

I'm still not getting it... why is it wasting anyone's time? That's the strategy they employ to play, the cards are all legal, YOU just don't like that deck type. No one wasted anyone's time, in fact, in this particular instance I won the match in 20 minutes and was able to go grab a bite to eat while I wait for the next one. Is someone playing Infect the same? What about Lands? I mean, these strategies can combo out of no where too and kill your opponent, are they acceptable because they're arbitrarily "less glass cannon"?

And yes DTT-omni was insanely broken, hard to hate out and quite consistent...which is exactly why nobody is shedding tears for it.

Well, OmniTell and Grixis players are upset about it but you're right that it's hard to hate out and quite consistent. In my opinion, if combo decks should be allowed to exist, they shouldn't be consistent and they should have ways to hate them out. Otherwise, while it's not a strategy I'd ever play (I've tried), I don't see why anyone should dictate what OTHERS decide to play.

[iatee]

I don't see why anyone should dictate what OTHERS decide to play.

Wizards dictates what people play. For example, they just dictated that people don't get to play DTT-Omni anymore. I don't get to do anything but call belcher players trolls.

They would dictate a lot more if they actually cared about legacy the way they care about modern.

[Megadeus]

You do not need to explain to me why the mono-belcher meta will never happen, it was a theoretical scenario. Of course the decks fold to hate and counterspells - that's why they're jokes and basically exist just to troll people.

If you think that tapping out for a sorcery speed x spell is how you win a control mirror, hmmm, dunno what to tell you.

Mind twist you for X=your hand. Oh you don't have a way to protect yourself? I probably win. Is it that hard to realize the power level of mind twist in a control mirror?

[Anarky87]

I'm still not getting it... why is it wasting anyone's time?

Because he's functioning off some subjective personal principle that he restricts himself to in order to define fun for himself. But, if you don't use his principle to define fun, then the statements become rather useless.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Vengevine Survival is essentially a turn 4 combo deck that's vulnerable to GY hate, Abrupt Decay, and the acceleration that makes it turn 4 is vulnerable to Bolt (in a UG build). Oh, and it wins through the attack phase, with two attacks. Strong in its consistency and versatility (especially shoved into a Nic Fit shell), but I don't think it pushes the speed of Legacy anymore. The metagame has more creature-based decks now which make an attack phase combo deck more interactive.

Sure but none of those address why Survival the card is fine for the format, the old Oath control decks from 15 years ago are probably fine in modern day legacy, but that's hardly a reason to unban Oath (same with Necro)

It's so cute when people confuse "Decks Admiral_Arzar plays" with "bad luck-based deck".

I'm sorry I couldn't resist :3

[iamajellydonut]

What I'm interested in playing against clearly doesn't matter, it's personal preference as my mockery of your statement illustrated. I don't find a turn 3 Show and Tell into derp that much more or less miserable than being belched, I brought a non-Force of Will creature deck to an event and lost the roll so fuck me I guess. We're talking about 3 minutes invested in watching the show and chimp skillfully craft his 2 card derp combo with the dumb fucking cantrip that should have been banned vs. just derp derp belch it's not that different from the perspective of johnny mcdeadguy who lost the roll and didn't find Thoughtseize. Or trying to play vs. countertop game one on the draw without Abrupt Decay ... I'd rather grind my taint against sandpaper.

Regardless, your statement is tangential to the thread title. 100% Belcher and Oops all Dicks won't happen because

a) The deck(s) lack enough internal consistency to navigate a 9+ round event very often
b) Force of Will is a great but balanced Magic card and will continue to be played
c) These decks fold to hate so savagely because they fight on basically one axis and thus would be hated out if they gained a foothold

You bring up depth of play yet discount the control vs. control sub game of resolving Mind Twist. Given that it's been banned for 20 years and you likely aren't much older than that I don't blame you. Mind Twist could be safely unbanned and it would be an interesting addition, as a control mirror breaker, or a high risk high reward early play off fast mana. Your fear of a 'discard' deck is unwarranted, there are so many discard spells + LotV available that adding Mind Twist would do nothing. There are already better options. Like Smallpox, Hymn, pinpoint discard. If those decks see a slight surge it'll be because the delve blue is gone. But they'll never dominate because the blue cantrip engine just provides card quality and safety that a shitty fucking pox deck can't hope to compete with over 9+ rounds.

I usually hold very little respect for you with regards to "Brainstorm" discussions, but holy shit this is the post of the fucking century.

[Blastoderm]

Ah, the gentleman's agreement.

You should probably stay away from competitive Magic if your feelings are going to get hurt from a deck someone is playing. And from forums discussing competitive Magic also.

He's a D&T player. Should stick to Standard.

[iatee]

Who said anything about feelings? I go to legacy tournaments with the hopes of playing interesting competitive games that involve a lot of interaction and decision making. These things are at the core of the game. Non-games are bad for magic - that's exactly why they just changed the mulligan rule. If you show up at a tournament with a non-competitive deck that doesn't lead itself to interesting games then what exactly are you there for? The playmat?

[Stevestamopz]

He's a D&T player. Should stick to Standard.

Please, Standard decks are way more powerful than D&T.

signed
Goblins player.

[HrishiQQ]

If you show up at a tournament with a non-competitive deck that doesn't lead itself to interesting games then what exactly are you there for? The playmat?

To have fun. Different people's definitions of fun do not necessarily align with your own. I'm sorry this simple concept seems to escape you.

[DarthVicious]

I'm pretty sure casting Mind Twist is fun so your argument is flawed anyway.

Chaining rituals into a first turn spell that says 'randomly discard all your relevant cards' would bring me bucketloads of joy. Effectively winning the game is just as good as actually winning the game.

Even if I faced that... even if most people would scoop it up right there... I wouldn't. Epic comebacks are epic. And even if I lose... so what? I lost to my favorite card in the game.

Although, now I can brew up land destruction, so... yeah.