All B/R update speculation.

[Kagehisa]

Just asking. Do you guys know Soothsaying ? A very very bad SDT for sure but if Top is banned, I'll try it to make counterbalance still work.

[jrsthethird]

I don't know what to think when people assume the death of miracles may help goblins come back.... miracles is the best matchup for goblins, and i think the only real reason to take them to a big event right now.

Because other decks meta percentage change as well. Maybe Zoo can come back without a one-mana Wrath in the format. You can't take 20% of the field away and expect the other 80% to remain the same.

Anyway, I really don't want top to be banned. Why ever decks like nic fit junk imperial painter and so on should get hurt because right now the dominant deck (miracles) is played by 20% of the field and causes logistic issues?

You just answered your own question.

Just asking. Do you guys know Soothsaying ? A very very bad SDT for sure but if Top is banned, I'll try it to make counterbalance still work.

It's better than Top. You can pitch extras to FOW!

[LeoCop 90]

I don't expect the other 80% of the field to stay the same, i'm just saying goblins get worse for sure if miracles doesn't exist anymore.

regarding "you just answered your own questions i don't even know what you mean. If it is miracles that causes logistic issues, just ban the card that has less splash damage (counterbalance). If top gets played only by painter nic fit and other fringe decks that make maybe 5% of the field altogether logistic issues disappear.

[GundamGuy]

I don't expect the other 80% of the field to stay the same, i'm just saying goblins get worse for sure if miracles doesn't exist anymore.

regarding "you just answered your own questions i don't even know what you mean. If it is miracles that causes logistic issues, just ban the card that has less splash damage (counterbalance). If top gets played only by painter nic fit and other fringe decks that make maybe 5% of the field altogether logistic issues disappear.

Why?

Miracles is a good matchup for Goblins, but the rest of the field that is designed with Miracles in mind is not. Getting rid of 1 mana instant speed wrath effects seems like it would increase the number of fair decks in the format, which seems like it would be a boon for Goblins.

Having a 95% match 1/5 of the time is way worse then have a 60% matchup 2/3's of the time...

If you are going to ban a card out of Miracles it should be Terminus.

[Crimhead]

Having a 95% match 1/5 of the time is way worse then have a 60% matchup 2/3's of the time...

What exactly do you think this 66.6% of the meta will be post Miracles? What specific decks which are 40/60 vs Goblins are suddenly going to storm through the new meta?

You'll forgive me if I sound skeptical, but this is quite the wild claim. Can you back it up?

Convince us that you have a sound, well thought out theory as to where the meta will go.

[GundamGuy]

What exactly do you think this 66.6% of the meta will be post Miracles? What specific decks which are 40/60 vs Goblins are suddenly going to storm through the new meta?

You'll forgive me if I sound skeptical, but this is quite the wild claim. Can you back it up?

Convince us that you have a sound, well thought out theory as to where the meta will go.

I think you are keying up on the wrong part's of what I am saying.

My point is entirely that removing one good matchup is actually sometimes better for a deck, because you don't only play that one good matchup all the time.

What decks do I think would start showing up more. Junk, Esper Stoneblade, Mavrick, Knight of the reliquary.dec, Basically non-tempo creature decks, and control archatypes that have been squeezed out by Miracles. It's a very long list.

[KobeBryan]

They dont' need to ban a card

They just need to nerf the miracles trigger a bit. You can't cast no sorcery speed card on my turn

[Raystar]

They dont' need to ban a card

They just need to nerf the miracles trigger a bit. You can't cast no sorcery speed card on my turn

Amen

[CorwinB]

They dont' need to ban a card

They just need to nerf the miracles trigger a bit. You can't cast no sorcery speed card on my turn

Interesting idea... Is there a precedent to that ? Changing a whole rule/keyword (and not a single card) for balance reasons ?

[Quasim0ff]

Interesting idea... Is there a precedent to that ? Changing a whole rule/keyword (and not a single card) for balance reasons ?

No, they try to stay away from Errata.

As in, they won't do that.

[sjmcc13]

Interesting idea... Is there a precedent to that ? Changing a whole rule/keyword (and not a single card) for balance reasons ?

Artifacts turning off.
Interrupts to Instants
Mana burn
might be something else.

[Tylert]

Artifacts turning off.
Interrupts to Instants
Mana burn
might be something else.

Damage in the stack?

[Quasim0ff]

Artifacts turning off.
Interrupts to Instants
Mana burn
might be something else.

This is not the same as changing the miracle mechanic.

[jrsthethird]

To be fair, they did change the Continuous Artifact mechanic, and also changed removed the Interrupt mechanic. Depends how loosely you use the word mechanic.

[GundamGuy]

To be fair, they did change the Continuous Artifact mechanic, and also changed removed the Interrupt mechanic. Depends how loosely you use the word mechanic.

To be fair, back when they made those changes, the idea of a mechanic was pretty undeveloped and most of these changes were not functional in nature.

Interrupt to Instant was before me so I don't know much about that change, but damage not on the stack, and the great creature type changes made cards work functionally different.

I'm not sure they will make a change to a specifc keyword mechanic though.

It's also debateable , because of the exact word choice used, that Miracle works exactly how Wizards intended.

[rufus]

...
Interrupt to Instant was before me so I don't know much about that change, but damage not on the stack, and the great creature type changes made cards work functionally different.
...

Interrupts are somewhere between what instants and mana sources are today. I think they could - effectively - recreate interrupts with text like:

Interrupt (as long as this is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities unless those spells are interrupts or those abilities are mana abilities.)

Generally interrupts were things that manipulated other spells (e.g. Counterspell, Lifelace, Sleight of Mind or Fork) and things that could produce mana like Llanowar Elves, Dark Ritual and even Ley Druid.

In the transition they had wierd stuff like uncounterable dark rituals, but I don't think there's that much effective difference between the 4E interrupt cards and how those cards work today.

[Dice_Box]

Yea, the Mirage Dark Rit has the line "Mana Source" printed on it. Makes me glad I did not play though that error. (Spelling mistake intended.)

[tescrin]

This is not the same as changing the miracle mechanic.

Not really, there are artifacts that ceased to function as intended due to power level; they picked and chose which artifacts would stay tapable when they changed things. In other words, they didn't respect the rule-changes on all artifacts the same; functionally changing the game and the way the cards worked.
E.G. Howling Mine vs. Winter Orb

Damage not using the stack is huge when you consider how many cards were absolute power-houses that were reduced to trashy-garbage-trash. Even in the current meta; imagine a guy who can get his damage on the stack against someone with a Jitte, then sac himself; killing the guy, giving no Jitte Counters, and doing whatever his sacrifice do-dad does.

You want to talk about changing the entire way a game works because you have stupid players; BOOM, perfect example. (That said; Miracles isn't oppressive here and has largely been driven out. Though I can't say for why. It may be like Sneakshow where it's unfun enough to play they just don't do it lol)


EDIT: as an aside; it'd take a very different wording to cast it at sorcery speed; because technically you cast it at the end of your draw step IIRC, due to when the trigger resolves (under normal conditions); making it instant speed.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Impulse was eratta'ed.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[rufus]

Not really, there are artifacts that ceased to function as intended due to power level; they picked and chose which artifacts would stay tapable when they changed things. In other words, they didn't respect the rule-changes on all artifacts the same; functionally changing the game and the way the cards worked.
E.G. Howling Mine vs. Winter Orb
...

Huh, I hadn't noticed that. Static Orb seems like a better comparison. Are there other artifacts that didn't get the 'as long as ~ is untapped' template?