All B/R update speculation.

[rlesko]

The biggest failure of people in this thread is to try to jam banned cards in existing decks. Unbanned cards can spawn new archetypes, ya know

[Quasim0ff]

I want to see Dragon and Shahrazad in the same deck, just so that way we can see some really fucked up match slips.

8-8, we drew

[Speedbump]

8-8, we drew

Wouldn't the slips just be 0-0-X, where X is the number of times the Dragon player gets stuck in an infinite loop?

[Dice_Box]

Its a joke on how many subgames caused by Shahrazad were won and lost.

[Lord Seth]

We all know you just want to keep nesting sub-games using burning wish. The card does present something of a logistics concern. It's not nearly as silly as in the earlier version of the rules when there was no exile zone.

The thing is, Divine Intervention is a logistics concern as well, but no one complains about it being legal. Sure, there's the fact Divine Intervention isn't very good, but it seems by this metric it should get banned. And players do have the option to immediately concede the game so there's no slowdown.

The real issue with Shahrazad is the fact it's basically a 2-mana "target player loses half their life" which seems a little overpowered.

[Crimhead]

The biggest failure of people in this thread...

I think we could find a lot worse on this thread.

New Archetypes come up from time to time. But more often than not when a new card enters the format its best home is in an established archetype.

[Finn]

We all know you just want to keep nesting sub-games using burning wish. The card does present something of a logistics concern. It's not nearly as silly as in the earlier version of the rules when there was no exile zone.

Actually, I mean that it does a lot of damage as a bonafide burn card (and it hoses combo in those subgames). The Burning Wish idea, I think, works better in Affinity. Or heck, Dragon. You guys are sick.

[rlesko]

New Archetypes come up from time to time. But more often than not when a new card enters the format its best home is in an established archetype.

How can you make a generalization like that? If Survival gets unbanned is it going into maverick or are you making a Survival deck? The answer is obvious. Did Land Tax go into existing archetypes or is it a card that needs to be built around?

[jrsthethird]

Did Land Tax go into existing archetypes or is it a card that needs to be built around?

I tried it in 43 Lands, wasn't very good.

[Crimhead]

How can you make a generalization like that? If Survival gets unbanned is it going into maverick or are you making a Survival deck? The answer is obvious. Did Land Tax go into existing archetypes or is it a card that needs to be built around?

Parfait was not invented when Land tax was unbanned! Revival of an old or defunct archetype ≠ spawning a new archetype.

How many cards see Legacy play which are less than five years old? How many brand new tier-one archetypes have we seen in the last five years as a result?

[rufus]

The thing is, Divine Intervention is a logistics concern as well, but no one complains about it being legal. Sure, there's the fact Divine Intervention isn't very good, but it seems by this metric it should get banned. And players do have the option to immediately concede the game so there's no slowdown ..

Neither Divine Intervention nor the Karn Liberated ultimate will nest games the way that Shahrazad can.

[thefringthing]

I think some very early Miracles-type decks played Land Tax, but people pretty quickly came to their senses.

[ahg113]

How many cards see Legacy play which are less than five years old? How many brand new tier-one archetypes have we seen in the last five years as a result?

For the mental exercise, and time is not on my side, I think U/R Delver & Grixis Delver, Shardless BUG, and Miracles would be the most recent, new tier decks. I forget when the pivotal namesake cards (Delver, Y. Pyro, Shardless, DRS, Terminus, angel miracle..., etc.) were released, but it feels like about 5 years ago. A wrung lower, I'd throw in TinFins and Infect.

Typically, your sentiment is agreeable.

[Crimhead]

For the mental exercise, and time is not on my side, I think U/R Delver & Grixis Delver, Shardless BUG, and Miracles would be the most recent, new tier decks. I forget when the pivotal namesake cards (Delver, Y. Pyro, Shardless, DRS, Terminus, angel miracle..., etc.) were released, but it feels like about 5 years ago. A wrung lower, I'd throw in TinFins and Infect.

Typically, your sentiment is agreeable.

U/R counter-burn is one of the oldest archetypes in the game's history. I could also argue that Terminus and Entreat fit neatly into the existing U/W counter-top shell. Infect is just Berserk Stompy with better creatures.

I'm not saying new archetypes never one up. Only that this is the exception when Legacy gets a new card. And often you can tell. Hymn to Tourach (if anything) will either go into a dedicated hand disruption deck (Pox) or a big mana deck like Tezzerator or dark MUD. It's not going to be built around! Mind's Desire will go into a Storm or High Tide shell. Anybody who thought Vise was going to spawn a new archetype was fooling themselves.

Also, it's kind of irrelevant! The fact that a new card might create a new and OP archetype is not a reason to fear that card. Otherwise nothing would be safe. Any argument that a card should stay banned should at the very least suggest a specific deck for that card (new or old) that might be OP.

[MaximumC]

Neither Divine Intervention nor the Karn Liberated ultimate will nest games the way that Shahrazad can.

I guarantee Divine Intervention would be banned if it had the same casting cost as Scheherazade (Sharazad lol).

[jrsthethird]

I guarantee Divine Intervention would be banned if it had the same casting cost as Scheherazade (Sharazad lol).

So would Karn Liberated, amirite?!

[MaximumC]

So would Karn Liberated, amirite?!

Yeah, and someone at Wizards would be looking for work.

It's not a totally fair comparison, though -- Intervention could easily have been printed at WW. Back in Legends, Wizards HAD NO FREAKING IDEA WHAT THEY WERE DOING. Mana Drain? Let's make that cost UU. Abyss? Uh, 3B sounds fair. Craw Giant? Oh HELL NO that's gotta cost 3GGGG! RAMPAGE OP!

[rufus]

I guarantee Divine Intervention would be banned if it had the same casting cost as Scheherazade (Sharazad lol).

It was on the ban list for a while. I imagine it would be banned even at 4 or 5 mana since all-in decks could play it as some kind of game reset effect.

[Gheizen64]

It was on the ban list for a while. I imagine it would be banned even at 4 or 5 mana since all-in decks could play it as some kind of game reset effect.

Isn't lich's mirror that card?

[Finn]

Divine Intervention does not extend the time of the game like Shahrazad. They aren't really similar in the way they force a draw. And it is the manner in which Shahrazad forces the draw that has it banned, more like Divining Top in Modern than Divine Intervention.