All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

My first point is, that there are no real "hate" cards so I don't get Losetts point. How many decks in the Format can play Boseiju+Boil? All of the Miracles SB cards just help you a little bit but it is not like RiP for Dredge. And if you spend 6 SB cards to gear your decks toward miracles you will loose to the 75 rest of the field like you said. So I take his comment which is often quoted as quite Biased. I would like to know of him a 75 cards list for some dekcs, that beats ALL the miracles variants, while being ok against the rest of the field. until somebody comes up with this I doubt there is one.

My point is, that while neither of the cards is too oppressive on it's own (except for top maybe), it's the fact that they have ALL the tools, which makes this deck to strong in my opinion. The problem (narrowed down) is that Terminus puts you in favor of any creature strategy(most aggro decks/midrange decks), while CB keeps you save against the 'spell-1-drop" strategies (mostly combo). It is not healthy if the control deck of the format is both favored against the Aggro/Midrange and Combo decks of the Meta (see also BBDs opinion)

A top Ban would weaken/kill Terminus, CB, Entreat and Mentor, while making it much more vulnerable to discard. So that's a huge setback. A Terminus/Cb ban would mean not banning the most powerful card, which is kind of illogical, but would give one of the two Superarchtypies some leverage back against this deck. So i would say if you want to kill the deck ban top, if you want to weaken it ban CB/Terminus.

The "problem" with Miracles is that its beating combo AND aggro decks which is causing significant issues with the metagame balance if aggro-subtypes lose to combo AND control decks which renders them basically unplayable. As Miracles has all the tools to control the stack AND the field, effective sideboarding-hate is an illusion as they can remove any Choke, Needle, man-plan, Armageddon, Boil and more thanks to their SDT digging for any solution. The most annoying fact however is that the deck plays the clock, dragging out every game endlessly with two dozen of SDT activations per match with the pilot, rearranging, tanking, deciding to fetch or not, etc. which isn't too different from the blue cantrips in the early game, but unlike Ponder/Brainstorm/Preordain, the look-tank-rearrange-fetch-look-tank-rearrange with every shuffle effect crossing the way or every Counterbalance trigger during the game makes games lasting longer than 6 turns a painful drag. We ALL faced Miracles players who look at the top three cards 3+ times a turn, especially the lackluster end of turn top spinning and/or the post-drawphase one (followed by Ponder followed by looking at the top 3 again).

I doubt WotC is banning Terminus as it wouod look awkward on paper and can be substituted to a certain extend by Pyroclasm or more Entreats for 4/4 flying blockers out of nowhere against opposing assaults. To go in line with Modern banlist, I think that SDT would be their favorite ban, given that the deck has only Lands.dec as its natural predator as due to doging meaningful interaction completely (CB @ 2 to block Loam aside).

I want to chime in asking what Losett has in mind if he points to SB cards which are a REAL problem for Miracles and doesn't get easily dealt with W/T, Plows or CB

[Stevestamopz]

I want to chime in asking what Losett has in mind if he points to SB cards which are a REAL problem for Miracles and doesn't get easily dealt with W/T, Plows or CB

Or Council's Judgment.

I won't hold my breath.

[Kingbrago]

You also have to play magic. You can't just find a card that wins you immediately the game if you happen to draw it...
Your reasonning is biased and the same could be done for any deck: how can I beat shardless? They draw so many cards with fow backup then resolve liliana and have abrupt decay for my hate?

Needle, null rod and chalice as well as choke are really good against miracles for instance. Sure maybe you wont draw them, maybe you will be countered or they will have the wear tear. Maybe not and that card will win you the game. We're trying to play magic, where interaction should exist. Most miracles list dont play council's judgement anymore, 2 WT max in the SB and you can reasonably expect to resolve a 3 cmc through CB lock (which is not that easy to assemble and is a 2 card combo that doesnt win immediately the game. You can also counter the CB). If they counter your hate or deal with it, maybe you can resolve a threat of you own then?

Joe's argument is not good either: any deck can be beaten if you SB for it and play well. I think miracles is definitely warping the metagame, as lots of decks splash for decay just to deal with CB, and it is one of the most dominant decks in legacy. I don't know if that will lead to a ban: legacy is warped by lots of things: fast combo (play fow or loose to belcher) for instance.

Edit: about time issues its true that SDT is a strong offender but that also comes down to the players. I drew a lot of matches playing miracles because my opponent played really slowly without top. Top won't slow down fast players a lot and slow players will still play slowly if they don't have top (people taking 15 seconds to resolve a ponder are also annoying). This is not an argument against top ban (less library interaction=less opportunities for such players to burn through time) but to say that banning top wont solve timing issues in legacy.

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[twndomn]

I want to chime in asking what Losett has in mind if he points to SB cards which are a REAL problem for Miracles and doesn't get easily dealt with W/T, Plows or CB

Winter Orb, Null Rod.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._profiles.html

Should Sensei's Diving Top be banned in Legacy?
Joe Lossett: Really, that's the question this week? Miracles is beatable if you have good cards in the board and play well.

Should Sensei's Diving Top be banned in Legacy?
Ed Demicco: No, just ban Joe Lossett.

[MorphBerlin]

Winter Orb, Null Rod.

Null Rod is good but how is it devastating? Compare it to the effect of a Resolved Blood Moon against BUG for instance. It is an ok sideboard card but no hoser.

[Lemnear]

Winter Orb, Null Rod.

Bad try, dood. Very bad try. Both cards get easily countered (CB @2 via counterspell, counterbalance, W/T, etc on top of the library) or removed by CJ, W/T, etc. with the ability to find removal for the artifacts not significantly limited as Brainstorm & Ponder & Jace are still around to dig.

Reminds me of the SotF discussion: "Card is fine because Decay & Needle exist!" lol

Edit: Even if you shut off SDT it does not hinder Miracles to push its gameplan at all. You can still setup Terminus/Entreat with Brainstorm/Ponder/Jace

[Kingbrago]

Null Rod is good but how is it devastating? Compare it to the effect of a Resolved Blood Moon against BUG for instance. It is an ok sideboard card but no hoser.

They can use decay: they generally play 2 basics now + DRS.
The wear tear agument against null rod is equally viable for blood moon against shardless. I can use the same reasonning to say that moon is bad against shardless: doesnt deal with their board they can counter of discard it, they can take mana in response to decay, or just have a basic swamp and deathrite. Just like miracles can have WT, or sometimes it won't, sometimes they wont have the CB lock, sometimes they won't have a 2 on top. Of course if you consider the best case scenario, a lot of legacy decks are unbeatable thtough hate (dredge has nature's claim...)

And null rod/needle on top can be devastating in games as miracles can struggle without top and be really cluncky, especially non-predict versions.

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[MorphBerlin]

They can use decay: they generally play 2 basics now + DRS.
The wear tear agument against null rod is equally viable for blood moon against shardless. And null rod/needle on top can be devastating in games as miracles can struggle without top and be really cluncky, especially non-predict versions.

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Well you can't allways afford to fetch for basics and DRS is a happy StP target. If you don't have 2 out 3 (2 basics or DRS) you can just scoop. Because you have to exaactly draw your basics. There is no such card for miracles (besides Armagedon/Boil effects)

My point though is, that you can still dig for answers with Rod/orb out.

[Lemnear]

They can use decay: they generally play 2 basics now + DRS.
The wear tear agument against null rod is equally viable for blood moon against shardless. And null rod/needle on top can be devastating in games as miracles can struggle without top and be really cluncky, especially non-predict versions.

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So you compare "have no more mana to do anything" with "Oh, I cannot use my 4 Artifacts in the deck, but thanksfully can still cast all other 56 cards totally unaffected"? Really?

[Kingbrago]

Well 52 since with needle on top you can't use CB. You will also draw terminus when you don't need it and not have the right answers at the right time. Resolving such an effect won't win you the game on the spot but its a good start. So yes to be fair, they are not on the same level. Stuff like chalice or cataclysm/armaggedon seem like a better comparaison as "hoser" type cards. A resolved chalice on 1 is nearly unbeatable for most miracles decks (apart from the dream scenario where yiu already have top and find WT and you are not dead in the meantime, of course) PS. I also find it a good thing that most deck can beat even the meanest of hate cards (eg dredge can beat rip with natures claim etc). Unbeatable SB cards are so unfun for both players...

To continue the moon analogy, who cares if you have no more mana with 2 goyfs on the table? Sure we can always think of theoretical situations where a hate card is devastating (no board no basics, blood moon I win) or irrelevant (swamp+ deathrite + goyf, nice blood moon bro). A well set up moon sure is stronger against shardless than a needle against miracles, though you need less set up and if miracles has nothing but tops, CB and terminus in had, needle can win you the game.
We can imagine situations all day, but the fact is that needle or null rod are strong hate cards against miracles, as they attack what makes the deck good (top giving the miracles player consistancy+ answer + combo). The posts about needle and null rod refer to a situation where miracles already has assembled CB+top and has WT in hand. A more likely scenario is that the miracles player plays top turn 1, his opponent needles on his turn and the miracles guy choses to let his top be a blank on the field or draw it again next turn, possibly drawing blank CB or other tops in the future abd having to hope to draw several BS to shuffle all the dead cards and find WT, possibly while being beaten up by a delver. The context is really important when evaluating the impact of those cards. It is also important to mention that the cards we're talking about require no set up nor deckbuilding restrictions other than not playing top yourself (or artefacts for null rod)

The more interesting point is that new predict lists are built in a way they are better without top to fight through the hate. I also think that if you need specific SB answers to deal with a small part of a fair deck, it's a strong sign that this deck may be to strong.

To sum up my point: it is true that you can beat miracles with SB cards, those SB cards can be devastating. But that is irrelevant to the discussion that miracles deserves or not a ban. What matters is the power level of the deck (which I think is ok, but its up to debate), and its warping effect on the meta (which I think is not ok and warrants a ban. I think CB is the main offender here)


Edit: I edited the post 2-3 times as some more thoughts came to mind, hope it's still clear :)

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[Lemnear]

Well 52 since with needle on top you can't use CB.

Because the deck isn't running Jace/Brainstorm/Ponder to keep CB active ... oh wait!

You will also draw terminus when you don't need it and not have the right answers at the right time.

Jace/Brainstorm/Ponder? Do you even play Legacy?

resolving such an effect won't win you the game on the spot but its a good start. So yes to be fair, they are not on the same level. Stuff like chalice or cataclysm/armaggedon seem like a better comparaison as "hoser" type cards. A resolved chalice on 1 is nearly unbeatable for most miracles decks (apart from the dream scenario where yiu already have top and find WT and you are not dead in the meantime, of course) PS. I also find it a good thing that most deck can beat even the meanest of hate cards (eg dredge can beat rip with natures claim etc). Unbeatable SB cards are so unfun for both players...

Its about SB cards which are an actual problem for Miracles to follow their gameplan or to win. Blocking SDT (and to a lower extend CBs effectiveness) isn't backbreaking unless the Miraclea pilot kept a total crap hand and forgot how to play Legacy with "only" 8 cantrips (and Jaces).

To continue the moon analogy, who cares if you have no more mana with 2 goyfs on the table? Sure we can always think of theoretical situations where a hate card is devastating (no board no basics, blood moon I win) or irrelevant (swamp+ deathrite + goyf, nice blood moon bro). A well set up moon sure is stronger against shardless than a needle against miracles, though you need less set up and if miracles has nothing but tops, CB and terminus in had, needle can win you the game.

aka the opponent is a greedy idiot folding immediately, if their SDT gets FoW'd, dazed, discarded, needled? The part about the goyfs is misleading as Terminus still exists to lock the opponent out under BloodMoon

We can imagine situations all day, but the fact is that needle or null rod are strong hate cards against miracles, as they attack what makes the deck good (top giving the miracles player consistancy+ answer + combo).

And yet it still does not hinder Miracles to play their game and setting up Miracle-Spells with Ponder/Brainstorm/Jace. All you attack is the stack-control which a skilled Miracles player can work around unless you are a combo deck.

The more interesting point is that new predict lists are built in a way they are better without top to fight through the hate. I also think that if you need specific SB answers to deal with a small part of a fair deck, it's a strong sign that this deck may be to strong.

I still don't get why one would include Predict in a deck with already so much cardadvantage. Just my 0.02$

To sum up my point: it is true that you can beat miracles with SB cards, those SB cards can be devastating.

Thats simply not true, pointing at stuff like Needle or Nullrod. The only card screwing the whole Ponder/Brainstorm/SDT bullshit is Chalice of the Void which isn't a SB card. There is no SB card which significanly affects Miracles' ability to progress their gameplan and win. The named SB cards make his goal ONLY SLIGHTLY HARDER to reach, if we can even talk about "hard" with all the remaining library manipulation still available even if you block SDT

But that is irrelevant to the discussion that miracles deserves or not a ban. What matters is the power level of the deck (which I think is ok, but its up to debate), and its warping effect on the meta (which I think is not ok and warrants a ban. I think CB is the main offender here)

What matter is the decks effect on the metagame by kicking ANY aggro & combo deck in the nutz preboard, requiring plenty of SB space to fight it and the deck having essentially killed any aggro strategy in the format by being able to counter/wipe all creatures over and over for a single mana. The deck harms format diversity by driving any natural predators for Delver variants out of the format. I am totally fine with it as a combo police deck, but a control deck which is also so damn good against aggro destroys the format balance, so banning Counterbalance would not make the situation better for aggro strategies at all, but imprive the position of combo/tempo only with the aggro supertype still getting crushed by Terminus, Tendrils and S&T.

[Quasim0ff]

Post

Have you tried to play Miracles without top?

Miracles relys so heavily on it's filtering, as it can't just randomly take control.

Without top, the deck becomes SIGNIFICANTLY weaker.

[Lemnear]

Have you tried to play Miracles without top?

Miracles relys so heavily on it's filtering, as it can't just randomly take control.

Without top, the deck becomes SIGNIFICANTLY weaker.

"Weaker" in terms of "having to run the same filtering like the rest of blue decks, plus Jace"? We all know how "weak" Ponder + Brainstorm are in Legacy, right?

[Quasim0ff]

"Weaker" in terms of "having to run the same filtering like the rest of blue decks, plus Jace"? We all know how "weak" Ponder + Brainstorm are in Legacy, right?

There's a fundemental difference in how the decks use cantrips.

Miracles often use them to survive. The same cannot be said for the other (tempo, midrage and combo) decks. They aim at ending the game asap. Miracles doesn't do that, in the same fashion, as it's unable to do so.

There's quite a difference in seeing Stoneforge/Delver/Show and Tell/Infernal tutor and then counterbalance/top/terminus.

[Dice_Box]

Lem, I know shit gets somewhat heated in here, but please refrain from the "Do you even play Legacy" argument. Attack the argument whole, not the person making it.

[Vandalize]

Without SDT, Counterbalance is completely inviable. These cards live for each other. If you can't counter 2+ spells with CB, it's no better than playing Counterspell, right? I find Counter Top interaction to be acceptable, it has been around for a long time in Legacy. The problem is removing WHATEVER your opponent throws at you with a 1 mana instant Wrath of God that doesn't even put the creatures into the graveyard. Terminus is an OK card that becomes broken with the existence of Top and Brainstorm.

We can argue that SDT would be the best fit for the ban, because it also eats the clock up when the player is slow (or durdling on purpose). But that would definitely kill the archtype. Miracles isn't possible to exist without BOTH Brainstorm and Sensei's Top, they're indispensable for the deck's strategy (and the first being the sacred cow of Legacy, that won't ever get banned for any reason).

The problem with Miracles is that the deck has answers and solutions for every matchup. We can't hate on their lands because they run basics. We can't hate on Top because that card can save itself (unless you want to pack Krosan Grip). We can't overextend on the boardstate because of Terminus, but if we cast a low number of threats, they can be dealt with in the stack (Counterbalance) and in the field (Swords to Plowshares + Snapcaster Mage). They only seem to have a hard time against resolved Planeswalkers, but Council's Judgement and Monastery Mentor can also take care of that.

Terminus is the big deal. Supreme Verdict/Day of Judgement/Wrath of God needs 3 extra mana at Sorcery speed. Miracles don't usually splash black for Toxic Deluge (which is the second best hoser in the format). This is probably the best option to make the deck still viable, but significantly weaker.

[Lemnear]

Lem, I know shit gets somewhat heated in here, but please refrain from the "Do you even play Legacy" argument. Attack the argument whole, not the person making it.

Roger, Dice. Sometimes entering this thread is like throwing a bowl of water into boiling oil. Sorry, pal

Edit:

There's a fundemental difference in how the decks use cantrips.

Miracles often use them to survive. The same cannot be said for the other (tempo, midrage and combo) decks. They aim at ending the game asap. Miracles doesn't do that, in the same fashion, as it's unable to do so.

There's quite a difference in seeing Stoneforge/Delver/Show and Tell/Infernal tutor and then counterbalance/top/terminus.

I could swear people in this thread called Brainstorm unfair, because it renders Discard less efficient to fight combo decks, if the combo player uses the card defensively. There is no difference if you use your Ponder to setup Entreat or to dig for S&T. There is no difference if you use brainstorm to find a Plow to remove a creature or to find a Decay for Chalice. Its not a question of the deck. You can use the cantrips to setup offensive and defensive actions in any deck which runs them

[Kingbrago]

This is a fair point but I don't know if it would make the deck that much weaker to creature strategies. Pyroclasm effects help against go wide strategies and playing more spot removal (bolt/pte) + snapcaster should be enough to deal with zoo/maverick style decks (modern jeskai control decks run few to no sweepers and have good MU against creature decks generally).

The warping effect of terminus is also harder to quantify: we cant really say that creature decks such as zoo or mavericks are pushed out of the meta because of combo or terminus. On the other hand, lots of decks splash for decay specifically to answer CB. Ultimately, a ban on terminus or on CB (a top ban effectively bans both) opens space for different strategies. It is possible that wizards goes for terminus in order to make room for creature strategies.

I also think that the fact that they chose or not to ban a card will say a lot about how they will manage the format in the long run. A deck as strong and warping as miracles would be banned without a doubt in modern, but they tend to be more lenient with legacy

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[Dice_Box]

Roger, Dice. Sometimes entering this thread is like throwing a bowl of water into boiling oil. Sorry, pal

Totally agree.

[DarthVicious]

They will never ban terminus lol. Sensei's divining top + brainstorm are on a much higher power level than terminus. They also enable terminus....good try though.

I'd also be happy about Top being banned.
Brainstorm... meh. In a format without Top I'd leave Brainstorm alone.

Edit: even if that meant Miracles ran 4 brainstorm, 4 snapcaster, 4 ponder, etc. Hell, they could even go old school and run those paint thinner artifacts to get the draw on the opponents turn for all I care.