View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #16301

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Sure is a lot of complaining about utility cards in this thread. Can't say I remember the last time a T1 "land, utility card, pass" shut me out of the game.
    I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be with this remark. Want to know what's also a utility card you can play on turn 1 that doesn't shut the opponent out of the game? Ancestral Recall.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemeron View Post
    All the anti-Brainstorm and anti-DRS people need to get together and realize that you all have a common enemy you should spend your time complaining about: fetchlands. They enable pretty much everything that's been bitched about in the last couple pages. Brainstorm does a good Ancestral Recall impression because you constantly have the ability to shuffle away the chaff. Without the ability to shuffle your library on a whim, the card is much less impressive. The only reason DRS sees so much play is because fetchlands make it a bird of paradise that's actually good to draw in the late game. A couple years ago while DRS was getting banned in modern and dominating legacy, it was seeing absolutely zero play in standard, and that's because the other abilities are nice, but not good enough when you don't have a way to have it reliably be a mana dork. Hell, even the creep of blue decks being able to play whatever other colors they want has more to do with fetchlands making perfect mana than anything DRS has ever done. It would be a lot more interesting if greedy blue decks had to go back to something like Flood Plain instead of Flooded Strand. Would it be worth slowing down a turn in order to enable greedy mana? That would probably help open the door for more aggro decks that could punish the slower mana.
    It's strange to be no longer the only one pointing to the fact, that the set of cards enabling all the shenanigans with Ponder, Brainstorm, DRS, Jace, SDT, etc are the obvious targets, if people are pissed of about Legacys card-quality engines. However, pointing at it is pretty pointless, as the anti-Brainstorm camp doesn't want to lose THEIR card-quality engines and perfect 3/4 color manabases in order to bitchslap the whole cantrip galore. They just want to see Brainstorm banned to eliminate certain decks from the format, create a further streamlining as a result and then end up bitching about how good Ponder/Preordain/SDT + Fetchlands are in a post-Brainstorm metagame.

    I see it the same way as Robert: Legacy is far the point where "color" and its identity matter at all. No one is forced to make any tradeoffs in terms of color if 3- to 4-color decks are pretty much the status quo and you can splash anything anywhere thanks to Fetchlands, Duals and cardselelction. As long as a every mana source gives you access to 2+ colors, we don't need to talk about blue, black, red, green or white decks/cards anymore.

    We also don't need to talk about the annoying topic of percentage of card X in the format, bitching about the numbers of Misstep, Survival and Brainstorm as justification for a ban, if it comes from hypocrits who don't want to talk about the 90%+ standard of Fetchlands at the dame time. Its pretty obvious for every non-troll, that penetration alone isn't a gauge for a bad format.
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  3. #16303
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    "Fetchlands are broken, they can be played in every single deck that uses any colour of mana, irrespective of archetype or game plan.
    Brainstorm and DRS? Nope, they're totally fine, not an issue there at all."

    And you wonder why why no one takes this argument seriously.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Re: Fetchlands
    I think we can all agree that, regardless of the merits of discard being good or cantrips or what have you, a format where wasteland is $100+ is not desirable.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    They just want to see Brainstorm banned to eliminate certain decks from the format, create a further streamlining as a result and then end up bitching about how good Ponder/Preordain/SDT + Fetchlands are in a post-Brainstorm metagame.

    I see it the same way as Robert: Legacy is far the point where "color" and its identity matter at all. No one is forced to make any tradeoffs in terms of color if 3- to 4-color decks are pretty much the status quo and you can splash anything anywhere thanks to Fetchlands, Duals and cardselelction. As long as a every mana source gives you access to 2+ colors, we don't need to talk about blue, black, red, green or white decks/cards anymore.

    We also don't need to talk about the annoying topic of percentage of card X in the format, bitching about the numbers of Misstep, Survival and Brainstorm as justification for a ban, if it comes from hypocrits who don't want to talk about the 90%+ standard of Fetchlands at the dame time. Its pretty obvious for every non-troll, that penetration alone isn't a gauge for a bad format.
    This. All of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be with this remark. Want to know what's also a utility card you can play on turn 1 that doesn't shut the opponent out of the game? Ancestral Recall.
    My point was that T1 Brainstorm rarely translates into the end of the game. Or if it does, more often than not it does in the same way that T1 DRS, T1 Chalice, or T1 Thoughtseize does; it puts you ahead of your opponent, sometimes by a wide margin. That's what it's there for. It's worth pointing out that those cards are significantly more aggravating to face than Brainstorm is, and at least two are either easier to cast or on par with Brainstorm.

    Regarding Ancestral, it's a card that genuinely does translate into T1 wins very often. And yes, it's both a utility card and (likely) the third-strongest card ever printed (behind Contract and Lotus). With that said, the card's power (lol) isn't the only reason it's banned. But if you want to argue that a) the sole reason that Ancestral is banned is its power, and b) the raw power of Brainstorm makes it bannable for the same reason, I disagree. My point wasn't that utility cards by definition shouldn't be banned; it was that people are up in arms over cards that are boons to the format for their utility and the deckbuilding space they create when those cards aren't the aggravating, "overpowered" things that KO people. Ancestral is pretty close to being the latter, utility card or not.

    As an aside, saying that a card has been part of the format since the beginning and thus doesn't deserve a ban is a valid argument, and Recall doesn't meet that criterion. I wasn't calling for any unbans.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    As an aside, saying that a card has been part of the format since the beginning and thus doesn't deserve a ban is a valid argument
    Just asking for clarification. Are you stating that you feel a cards date of print is a possibile defence against its removal from the format or am I missing something? Please fill me in.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  7. #16307
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    "Fetchlands are broken, they can be played in every single deck that uses any colour of mana, irrespective of archetype or game plan.
    Brainstorm and DRS? Nope, they're totally fine, not an issue there at all."

    And you wonder why why no one takes this argument seriously.
    Totally missing the point.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    the anti-Brainstorm camp doesn't want to lose THEIR card-quality engines and perfect 3/4 color manabases in order to bitchslap the whole cantrip galore.
    They just want to see Brainstorm banned to eliminate certain decks from the format.
    100% disagree with you. I don't have a pet card. I am not bitch-slapping anyone. You saying, "eliminate certain decks from the format" is a distraction.
    Deathrite is a PITA just like TNN. However, they (DS & TNN) are not an instant response (BS) to almost every single card in magic.

    Brainstorm as an instant is broken in Legacy. That is my entire argument against Brainstorm.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    100% disagree with you. I don't have a pet card. I am not bitch-slapping anyone. You saying, "eliminate certain decks from the format" is a distraction.
    You are free to show me a top tier S&T, Miracles, Tempo list without the option to exchange dead cards in hand with fresh ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    Deathrite is a PITA just like TNN. However, they (DS & TNN) are not an instant response (BS) to almost every single card in magic.

    Brainstorm as an instant is broken in Legacy. That is my entire argument against Brainstorm.
    I have no idea on what kitchen table you play, if people around you use Brainstorm mainly to respond to spells, rather than playing it in their own main phase to optimize their hand & mana. If Brainstorm was a Sorcery, it would fix/change nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  10. #16310
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    If Brainstorm was a Sorcery, it would fix/change nothing.
    Quoting you for the win; I would love to see brainstorm as a sorcery...
    My only point is that brainstorm as an INSTANT, is broken.

  11. #16311
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I am not sure anyone "Wins" anything posting in this thread.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  12. #16312

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    If Brainstorm was a Sorcery, it would fix/change nothing.
    Are you joking? Because otherwise this statement is downright absurd.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Just asking for clarification. Are you stating that you feel a cards date of print is a possibile defence against its removal from the format or am I missing something? Please fill me in.
    To a point, I do. That said, I'm not interested in defending every card that's currently Legacy legal, either, though I personally don't like bans on principle.

    What I like about Legacy is that it gives old cards (like Brainstorm) a chance to shine outside of what became Vintage. I wouldn't be surprised if this sentiment (at least partially) drove the creation of the format. Assuming the precept that Brainstorm is too strong a card for Legacy (I don't think this, but for the sake of argument), I feel like the problem is less that Brainstorm is too powerful for the format and more that cards printed since the inception of the format either have increased the power of Brainstorm or have failed to answer it; when they have, the repercussions have been detrimental to the format. That may—ipso facto—be an argument against Brainstorm. But Wizards has a long track record of making foreseeable errors in design and of trying to put a lid (bans or blanket-hosing) on its errors rather than design proper work-arounds or, frankly, do its job the first time around. The format's also older than many of the cards that I've seen indicted on this thread and elsewhere (rightly or wrongly), which I feel indicates that the problem is with the output, not the input.

    My general experience with bans is that they're bad for players and bad for the game. I've gotten screwed out of Modern thrice, and I have no interest in getting into it again. That doesn't excuse Wizards's slipshod design, though; I think it's a fundamental problem that they'll design Standard superstars that are transparently gimmicky and convoluted yet unplayable and that they'll design cards that an idiot could tell would cause problems (in part, this is what separates Legacy from Vintage, though I think they can be excused for not knowing how the game would function before it hit the shelves in '93).

    I also think that the degree to which sleeping dogs have lay is pertinent to the discussion. Banning something after so long a time without any immediate stimulus hurts players.

    I hope that cleared some stuff up, and I'd be glad to discuss it further. Didn't mean to talk your ear off!
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  14. #16314
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    (...)I have no idea on what kitchen table you play, if people around you use Brainstorm mainly to respond to spells, rather than playing it in their own main phase to optimize their hand & mana. If Brainstorm was a Sorcery, it would fix/change nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Are you joking? Because otherwise this statement is downright absurd.
    It's in the way Lemnear suggest to play Brainstorm, see the bold part. Makes sense, but is in my opinion not always the case when playing a Brainstorm-deck. The best Brainstorm is cast whenever it's needed.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
    It's in the way Lemnear suggest to play Brainstorm, see the bold part. Makes sense, but is in my opinion not always the case when playing a Brainstorm-deck. The best Brainstorm is cast whenever it's needed.
    The statement was twofold.

    First of all the mainphase Brainstorm more common than the react-to-spell-Brainstorm in tournaments. Second, and thats even more important, if it was a Sorcery, people would still play it as a 4-off in any deck possible because the effect is still amazing as a Sorcery as we can see on Jace the Mindsculptor.

    To claim that Brainstorm powerlevel is tied to "responding to spells" is just absurd, given that Ponder is a format staple and no one makes a fuzz about the fact that Ponder can't hide cards from discard. You sleeve up Brainstorm for the cardselelction and not as anti-discard-tool, ergo the card would see no less play if it was a sorcery.
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  16. #16316
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    To a point, I do. That said, I'm not interested in defending every card that's currently Legacy legal, either, though I personally don't like bans on principle.
    Ok. I disagree. I feel like if a card is causing issues in the format, be it Birds of Paradise or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy it should be removed.

    I feel like the way you wrote your post your argument is less about age and more about your thoughts on the card being argued. That's fair, but I am over debating the finer points of Brainstorm myself so I will leave the rest of your comment be.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I see we're going off the deep end into conspiracy theories as to why people would want brainstorm banned.

    Not like years of statistics have seen cards banned for much less, and no matter brainstorm is the only cantrips of the three "good" ones that allow you to reshuffle 2 cards from your hand away , making you virtually draw 3 and dodge discard at instant speed.

    Ancestral is balanced because it only fuel decks and reduce variance guys. Where do you draw the line?

  18. #16318

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Re: Fetchlands
    I think we can all agree that, regardless of the merits of discard being good or cantrips or what have you, a format where wasteland is $100+ is not desirable.
    Banning the fetches would be the biggest change to the game since the creation of formats.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmlima View Post
    Banning the fetches would be the biggest change to the game since Yesterday.
    Fixed that for you. Banning fetches would be a big change, but lets not get out of hand here.

    Bigger changes that occurred after the creation of formats are:
    Requiring sleeves
    Mythic Rares
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    Adding the stack, removing interrupts (Moo!)
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Ok. I disagree. I feel like if a card is causing issues in the format, be it Birds of Paradise or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy it should be removed.

    I feel like the way you wrote your post your argument is less about age and more about your thoughts on the card being argued. That's fair, but I am over debating the finer points of Brainstorm myself so I will leave the rest of your comment be.
    No worries! I guess another way to put it is that the format is what it is, it's gotten to where it is through decades of printings and card interactions, and problems usually arise from synergy between cards more than they do from singular cards (obviously, there are exceptions). So if a set drops, and it's got a card in it that busts older cards in combination, I'd rather see the newer one go than the old.

    Of course, that's no way to sell packs, so something tells me that philosophy won't catch on. A man can dream.
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