All B/R update speculation.

[Zulabnar]

Gotta love how decks that plan on regularly casting 3 and 4 drops in Legacy are running 19-20 lands and avoiding manascrew enough to regularly top 8. Feels great when you're playing Jund/Maverick/Dega/whatever with 23-24 lands, plus anywhere from 0-8 dorks, and still get screwed often.

Definitely DRS' fault. Once we ban this creature the format will be nothing but sunshine and daisies. Yep.

I totally agree with the first sentence. Is crazy.

About DRS if they will ban BS i could also think that banning DRS will be a valid choice too, but banning DRS without banning BS will bring everyone in Miracle.

[Crimhead]

...but banning DRS without banning BS will bring everyone in Miracle.

I seriously doubt that. If Delver takes a hit, Infect has more room to thrive (and Infect beats Miracles). I do suspect we'd see more Thresh, Prowess, and Infect (if DRS goes) for tempo decks.
Midrange decks might decline. Maverick might rise again, but I agree UWx Blade will remain an inferior choice to Miracles. That said, most "fair deck" players are not about to jump on classic UW control!

I also wonder if Dredge might become more relevant without DRS? That would certainly help keep Miracles in check.

[Claymore]

I think we would see Reanimator decks reclaim some territory with DRS gone. Lands may increase as well (barring pricing), but they prey on Delver decks anyway so mostly that matchup just gets worse for Delver.

But more likely we see DRS proclaimed as a new pillar of the format and a surge in the salt economy.

[rufus]

...
But more likely we see DRS proclaimed as a new pillar of the format and a surge in the salt economy.

I, for one, welcome our new creature overlords.

[Crimhead]

Lands may increase as well (barring pricing), but they prey on Delver decks anyway so mostly that matchup just gets worse for Delver.

Depends. If people play Grixis w/o DRS, or if they switch to Thresh, the Lands match gets tougher. But if U/R becomes the go to Delver deck, the Lands match improves.

But more likely we see DRS proclaimed as a new pillar of the format and a surge in the salt economy.

No doubt!

[lavafrogg]

What is the actual logic behind people calling for a DRS ban?

I feel like a creature being highly played instead of just another broken spell is actually pretty cool.

[Zulabnar]

What is the actual logic behind people calling for a DRS ban?

I feel like a creature being highly played instead of just another broken spell is actually pretty cool.

You should read at least last 10 pages of this topic.

[Nielsie]

You should read at least last 10 pages of this topic.

Not sure he will find logic in the last 10 (or any) pages of this thread :P

[Lemnear]

Not sure he will find logic in the last 10 (or any) pages of this thread :P

I think the 4c list with bloodmoons works well as a TL;DR on the reasons why people are offended.

[Crimhead]

What is the actual logic behind people calling for a DRS ban?

Basically people are considering Grixis Delver and Czech to be the same deck, and collectively holding too large a meta-share.

I feel a deck running Delver, Wasteland, and Daze has a very different game plan than a midrange deck looking to grind. But to be fair, DRS in Delver does make for a grindier tempo deck.

I think the 4c list with bloodmoons works well as a TL;DR on the reasons why people are offended.

Yeah, that sounds bad in theory. But if you actually look at the deck list, the colour requirements are very modest for 4c.

Besides 2x Jace, 2x Leo, and 3x Hymn, every other spell in that deck can be cast off a basic Island, Swamp, and a bunch of Mountains. That mana base is not as greedy as it looks - more like a heavy commitment to a light splash.

Its really not so outrageous to run a card that renders 7 of your own cards dead but completely shuts down the deck you fear the most.

[kombatkiwi]

Basically people are considering Grixis Delver and Czech to be the same deck, and collectively holding too large a meta-share.

I feel a deck running Delver, Wasteland, and Daze has a very different game plan than a midrange deck looking to grind. But to be fair, DRS in Delver does make for a grindier tempo deck.


Yeah, that sounds bad in theory. But if you actually look at the deck list, the colour requirements are very modest for 4c.

Besides 2x Jace, 2x Leo, and 3x Hymn, every other spell in that deck can be cast off a basic Island, Swamp, and a bunch of Mountains. That mana base is not as greedy as it looks - more like a heavy commitment to a light splash.

Its really not so outrageous to run a card that renders 7 of your own cards dead but completely shuts down the deck you fear the most.

[Disclaimer: Do I think DRS needs to be banned? No]

I think you're missing the point.
In MTG, the general rule of thumb for winning interactive matchups is 'go a little bigger, or a lot faster'.
We take Grixis Delver as the 'default' best deck, with all the best cards, miles better than any other comparable aggro/control/midrange deck. Is it possible to beat Delver by going 'a lot faster?' No. There's no viable aggro deck hat can race it because Delver already has all the most efficient threats and removal, and there's no combo deck that should ever be favoured vs Force, Daze, Pyroblast, Therapy+Pyromancer, etc.
Can we beat Delver by going 'a little bigger?' Yes, by removing Delver (the card) and Daze and replacing them with more-expensive-more-powerful threats and other disruption/removal, we have ended up with 4C. Which threats and removal can we use? Any! it can cost BB or UGB or 2UU or 1RB, it doesn't matter.

So now we have 2 decks, a fast deck and a slower deck.
- Can you make a fast-er deck to beat the fast deck? No, as explained above
- Can you make a slow-er deck to beat the slow deck? There is probably some bigger NicFit or Post deck that wrecks 4C (nevermind Post, Moon in the board lul), or even just 4C + Lingering Souls for example, but the 4C vs Delver matchup is already fairly close and making even clunkier decks is going to make the matchup vs Daze/Wasteland even worse, so this is probably a bad idea as well
- Are there alternative 'fast' or 'slow' interactive decks that are equally viable? It doesn't seem likely, because the fast deck and the slow deck have perfect mana and can play any card they want, so if there was another good interactive card or strategy available they could just incorporate it
- Is there a specific card you can bring in to hose either of these 2 decks? They are fair decks without any combo element, so it's not like they are soft to disruption. They rely on a lot of 1-mana cards so could be weak to Chalice, but Chalice needs a clunky deck to be built around it while both the fast decks and the slower decks are prepared for it. Both the fast deck and the slow deck are very colour intensive, but they have 4 Birds of Paradise to bail them out and the slow deck even plays moon itself. So it seems like this is also a no.
- Is there a specific deck that you can play that hoses these decks (potentially at the cost of other matchups)? I think the closest thing we have to this is Turbo Depths or Lands, but over time the DRS players have gotten better at adjusting to these decks so that the matchup is still fairly even. ('Adjusting' includes both gameplay decisions as well as the fact that they can board in basically any card they want, even Moon in their 4 color deck)

All these points combined means that the metagame essentially is solved at:
1. An aggro-control deck playing all the best cards
2. A slightly more controlling version of the same deck
3. That's it

Nobody is saying that guy is dumb for playing Moon (that it's a decision that hurts his win percentage); rather, that the fact he can get away with it is dumb, because it proves that these decks are immune to being attacked on basically any conceivable axis

Do I think that DRS should be banned? No, partly because I think a metagame that is solved in this way is fine as long as the gameplay is interesting and partly because I don't entirely agree with all the points I have laid out. But I think there are a large amount of people that do agree with what I have said here and that they think this is a significant problem

I feel a deck running Delver, Wasteland, and Daze has a very different game plan than a midrange deck looking to grind.

This is fine, but many people _feel_ differently
On one hand I think this thread has too many posts where people think they have some kind of objectively correct answer when there is never going to be any objectivity in this discussion, it can only ever be a 'clash of feels'. On the other hand I think that wizards should be making decisions that appease the majority of players so having a place for people to air their opinions serves a useful purpose.
Shrug

[pettdan]

@Lavafrogg: I tried to summarize common views a couple of weeks ago, though the post needs updating. For example I didn't cover the view that something doesn't need to be banned, or the input to the comments following it (a late thanks, btw!). Anyway, it was an attempt to give an overview. Kombatkiwi's post was interesting too, need to read it again and consider..

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1041289

[ed06288]

[Disclaimer: Do I think DRS needs to be banned? No]

now I imagine this guy writing travel guides about how 95% of a city is beautiful and great and here are places that had good food every time I ate there but always with this disclaimer

[kombatkiwi]

now I imagine this guy writing travel guides about how 95% of a city is beautiful and great and here are places that had good food every time I ate there but always with this disclaimer

lmao

[Claymore]

Not sure if anyone cares, but WotC decided to pretty much immediately split Brawl B&R from Standard. Banned Baral and Smuggler's Copter, unbanned everything else.

Baral was taking about 75% of the meta on MTGO and killing the format right off the bat.

[Crimhead]

So now we have 2 decks, a fast deck and a slower deck.
- Can you make a fast-er deck to beat the fast deck? No, as explained above
- Can you make a slow-er deck to beat the slow deck?

Does U/R Prowess not have a +ve match vs Grixis (by going faster)?

They rely on a lot of 1-mana cards so could be weak to Chalice, but Chalice needs a clunky deck to be built around it while both the fast decks and the slower decks are prepared for it.

We've had a Stompy deck in the DTB section for the last 7 months straight.

Is there a specific deck that you can play that hoses these decks (potentially at the cost of other matchups)? I think the closest thing we have to this is Turbo Depths or Lands, but over time the DRS players have gotten better at adjusting to these decks so that the matchup is still fairly even. ('Adjusting' includes both gameplay decisions as well as the fact that they can board in basically any card they want, even Moon in their 4 color deck)

Closer to even than, eg, Lands vs Thresh. But I still feel like a solid favourite vs Czech and Grixis. That said, I play RGu Lands. I think that build is much stronger in the current meta - especially against DRS decks. Maybe the straight RG decks are "closer to even"?

This is fine, but many people _feel_ differently

Then they should read Tempo And Card Advantage!
Perhaps the best article on competitive MTG theory to this day IMO.

[Disclaimer: Do I think DRS needs to be banned? No]

Neither do I. But I do think it's the most ban-worthy card currently legal in the format. So I do "get it".

[dte]

[Disclaimer: Do I think DRS needs to be banned? No]
In MTG, the general rule of thumb for winning interactive matchups is 'go a little bigger, or a lot faster'.
[...]
- Is there a specific deck that you can play that hoses these decks (potentially at the cost of other matchups)?

Elves does that: bigger, faster, and good MUs against both decks.
Unfortunately it gives much away to some other MUs, especially the un-interactive ones.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, that sounds bad in theory. But if you actually look at the deck list, the colour requirements are very modest for 4c.

Besides 2x Jace, 2x Leo, and 3x Hymn, every other spell in that deck can be cast off a basic Island, Swamp, and a bunch of Mountains. That mana base is not as greedy as it looks - more like a heavy commitment to a light splash.

That spares out the fact that these decks often run 20 lands and less with 4 of them being wasteland and still don't run into color/mana issues, removing every restriction/tradeoff for cardchoices other decks have to make. You simply run the cream of the crop of every color from 1-4 cc. That makes it hard to beat these decks by default as kiwi mentioned

[Crimhead]

That spares out the fact that these decks often run 20 lands and less with 4 of them being wasteland and still don't run into color/mana issues, removing every restriction/tradeoff for cardchoices other decks have to make. You simply run the cream of the crop of every color from 1-4 cc. That makes it hard to beat these decks by default as kiwi mentioned

I wasn't even speaking to the power level of the deck. I was pointing out the modest colour requirements, and that this is a 2 colour deck with splashes. 20 lands with 2 basics (and a tonne of fetches) + 4 dorks is not a particularly greedy mana base.

As for Czech being "hard to beat", people used to make that complaint about Miracles - that it had no bad matches amongst the tier-1 decks. Are you saying the same thing applies to Czech? I don't think that holds up.

[Lemnear]

As for Czech being "hard to beat", people used to make that complaint about Miracles - that it had no bad matches amongst the tier-1 decks. Are you saying the same thing applies to Czech? I don't think that holds up.

I feel that this is a similar slippery slope like we had then people argued that Miracles isn't a problem by pointing to 12-Post and Eldrazi, which both struggle with their own variance too often.

In the case of the Grixis/4c menace, it's pretty much the same, in case you want to point me to the various stompy decks which emerged in the last months.