View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19781
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    It has become a running joke to ban everything but Fetches + Brainstorm + Ponder
    That running joke literally is Legacy.

    Years ago, I asked this very question. You can go back and see what people felt the answer should be.

    The fact of that matter is, Wizards has definitively answered this and the fetch-Brainstorm interaction is absolutely a cornerstone, if not the keystone. You can argue there shouldn't be sacred cows, but there are and they aren't going anywhere.

    This ban though is no different than the Twin ban in Modern a few years ago. People feel there is a defacto "best deck" and ahead of a Pro Tour, Wizards takes the head off of it. Nothing surprising or unprecedented here.
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  2. #19782
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm glad we've found something to bitch about so quickly, otherwise this great thread might fall silent. Can we add 'Windswept Heath' to the poll?
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  3. #19783

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I'm not on a crusade against DRS, even stating it several times across threads.
    I was saying you were hating fetchlands, not DRS

    However, i am kinda annoyed that WotC once again just chopped the hydras head, instead of laying hands on the enabler of all the problem cards. For more than half a decade, we just dance around the 0cc shuffle, colorfix and manabase protectors, while bitching/moaning/banning every card (directly or indirectly) running on their back. TC, DRS, SDT, DTT, BS, Ponder, Delver, Angler, Leovold, and many, many more.

    It has become a running joke to ban everything but Fetches + Brainstorm + Ponder
    You're just next in the line of "X got banned, complain about Y"
    Fetchlands aren't going to be the unique exception

  4. #19784
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    You're just next in the line of "X got banned, complain about Y"
    Fetchlands aren't going to be the unique exception
    But they are the Emperor Palpatine in the shadows behind the Darth Maul that just got killed.

  5. #19785
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I was saying you were hating fetchlands, not DRS

    You're just next in the line of "X got banned, complain about Y"
    Fetchlands aren't going to be the unique exception
    That implies, I jump from one card to the next, which just isn't true. I keep pointing to fetchlands being the core issue since Miracles was dominating the format. No one "hates" fetches. I just outlined my points on how these cards create and feed dominant cores again and again. On my end, I am of course fine with different opinions.
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  6. #19786
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think that if fetch lands do get banned, it would shake up the format so fundamentally that all bets would be off. I really feel that it would be like 2005 all over again. And let me tell you. That was an amazing time.

    -The Goblins deck was constructed by dozens of people. It was all very egalitarian. We were trying lots of angles with no map to guide us. Aether Vial with Goblin Ringleader came about as the best strategy for it over time. Nobody even knew which goblins were better than others.

    -Landstill was the de facto control deck. The only reason this was true is because it was popular in Vintage at the time. The exact cards in it ranged widely. Again, we had No Idea what would work best.

    -Combo was a virtual blank slate. There was Solidarity (High Tide), and IGGy (Ill-Gotten Gains-Tendrils) came out soon after. But it was never that good. This was before Empty the Vaults and Ad Nauseam made TES possible. And there was Belcher, but it killed its user all the time because the search and tutor cards were weak. Lots of old Extended decks were attempted too.

    -There were a multitude of attempts at nonblue control decks, but none of them ever quite caught on.

    -There were also a variety of strange decks that all used Survival of the Fittest long before Vengevine got it banned. Goblin Welder (my first design and entry into Legacy) and Tradewind Rider were the most popular.

    -And then there was Threshold. This was the very first version of what we would call RUG now. It was the best of the early decks but it took us many months to even figure it out. There were just not a lot of people and we were trying to figure out the boundaries as we went.

    It was fantastic. It would be my pleasure to get a second chance to experience that.
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  7. #19787
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Tarmogoyf wasn't even a Legacy card during DRS' reign. Moreover, i doesnt matter if Leovold is or if you can cast the card off DRS without the need to have a green producing land in play. The fact that some decks seriously ran K.Command alongside Jace just underlines the absurdity of colorfixing going on.



    I'm not on a crusade against DRS, even stating it several times across threads.

    However, i am kinda annoyed that WotC once again just chopped the hydras head, instead of laying hands on the enabler of all the problem cards. For more than half a decade, we just dance around the 0cc shuffle, colorfix and manabase protectors, while bitching/moaning/banning every card (directly or indirectly) running on their back. TC, DRS, SDT, DTT, BS, Ponder, Delver, Angler, Leovold, and many, many more.

    It has become a running joke to ban everything but Fetches + Brainstorm + Ponder
    He is right and everyone who states otherwise really is in denial. I spent way too much money on expedition fetch, but would be happy to see them go.

  8. #19788

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I agree. I thought Onslaught block was awesome!

  9. #19789
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Years ago, I asked this very question. You can go back and see what people felt the answer should be
    Yeah, I answered that its Fetches, Duals and the fact that the format is managed by a banned list compared to vintages restricted list.

    While i still think its true as a factor to distinguish Legacy from Modern or Standard, it has become a significant crutch for Legacy by maintaining the cantrip shells dominance. We are already down to only ask how much dominance is bearable (which is kinda ridiculous by itself), jumping from

    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + TC to
    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + DTT to
    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + SDT to
    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + DRS to
    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + newest abuser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  10. #19790
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I think that if fetch lands do get banned, it would shake up the format so fundamentally that all bets would be off. I really feel that it would be like 2005 all over again. And let me tell you. That was an amazing time.

    -The Goblins deck was constructed by dozens of people. It was all very egalitarian. We were trying lots of angles with no map to guide us. Aether Vial with Goblin Ringleader came about as the best strategy for it over time. Nobody even knew which goblins were better than others.

    -Landstill was the de facto control deck. The only reason this was true is because it was popular in Vintage at the time. The exact cards in it ranged widely. Again, we had No Idea what would work best.

    -Combo was a virtual blank slate. There was Solidarity (High Tide), and IGGy (Ill-Gotten Gains-Tendrils) came out soon after. But it was never that good. This was before Empty the Vaults and Ad Nauseam made TES possible. And there was Belcher, but it killed its user all the time because the search and tutor cards were weak. Lots of old Extended decks were attempted too.

    -There were a multitude of attempts at nonblue control decks, but none of them ever quite caught on.

    -There were also a variety of strange decks that all used Survival of the Fittest long before Vengevine got it banned. Goblin Welder (my first design and entry into Legacy) and Tradewind Rider were the most popular.

    -And then there was Threshold. This was the very first version of what we would call RUG now. It was the best of the early decks but it took us many months to even figure it out. There were just not a lot of people and we were trying to figure out the boundaries as we went.

    It was fantastic. It would be my pleasure to get a second chance to experience that.
    Ironically A deck like zoo could become incredible in such a volatile environment, but is nigh unplayable without fetches to enable wild nacatl. Womp womp.
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  11. #19791
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Yeah, I answered that its Fetches, Duals and the fact that the format is managed by a banned list compared to vintages restricted list.

    While i still think its true as a factor to distinguish Legacy from Modern or Standard, it has become a significant crutch for Legacy by maintaining the cantrip shells dominance. We are already down to only ask how much dominance is bearable (which is kinda ridiculous by itself), jumping from

    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + TC to
    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + DTT to
    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + SDT to
    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + DRS to
    Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + newest abuser
    Then following from that, we should ask, what then should define Legacy?

    I think the easy answer there would be "The Banned List," but of what character is that? Note, the Modern Banned List does have a character, even if it isn't exactly consistent. Does the Legacy one?
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  12. #19792
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Then following from that, we should ask, what then should define Legacy?

    I think the easy answer there would be "The Banned List," but of what character is that? Note, the Modern Banned List does have a character, even if it isn't exactly consistent. Does the Legacy one?
    I like the magic word "should". I don't think the Legacy ban list has any fundamental concept (unlike the Modern one), nor can I answer the question, which concept it "should" have.

    To get closer to an answer, the banlist would need to get reviewed as a whole. We know that it makes little sense that certain cards are banned, but others remain legal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  13. #19793
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    As someone who missed the glory days, I for one would appreciate the chance to mess around with a few of the old banned cards.
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  14. #19794

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Prime View Post
    This seems like a feature to me. Not a problem.
    I wasn't implying it would be a bad thing, it would probably be the best way to systematically de-power a format that has become (in my opinion) far to efficient. Fetches would still have a home in modern/ vintage/ edh, it weakens basically every card that has been banned in the past 8 years(except misstep) so some could potentially come back. It weakens cantrips like brainstorm and ponder, any deck running more than 2 colors, and by association blues ability to access good efficient cards in other colors (which I think was a large contributor to format homogeneity since they could just poach the best cards from whatever color they wanted). The format in general lowers in power level, making more fringe strategies viable and increases format diversity. They would probably have to ban Griselbrand as well since I think reanimator/ snt strategies would probably fill the void in the de-powered format. This is of course all speculation but I think in general it would make it harder to use more colors which limits the power of the strongest decks which opens the format.

  15. #19795

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Sounds like Maro's design philosophy. Fuck good things when you can have a whole load of uninspired mediocrity at 3+ mana (while also admitting 1-2 years later that new design X was a mistake in hindsight).
    I think Maro takes the blame for something that has been developments fault. If you look at most of the mechanics since Theros, they have been mechanics that fundamentally don't work when the opponent has the removal to interact with them. Remember, it's their lead developer who said that the problem with Affinity in standard was that there were too many Shatters running around stopping all the cool things he wanted to do so only the one deck was viable.

  16. #19796

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    I think Maro takes the blame for something that has been developments fault. If you look at most of the mechanics since Theros, they have been mechanics that fundamentally don't work when the opponent has the removal to interact with them. Remember, it's their lead developer who said that the problem with Affinity in standard was that there were too many Shatters running around stopping all the cool things he wanted to do so only the one deck was viable.
    The main thing i've taken away from development in playing a bunch of standard on Arena is that making wraths cost 5 and rampant growths cost 3 is really shitty for the game overall.

  17. #19797

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    The main thing i've taken away from development in playing a bunch of standard on Arena is that making wraths cost 5 and rampant growths cost 3 is really shitty for the game overall.
    Development is so backwards right now with their aversion to pushing spells that they would print
    2WW
    creature
    flash
    when this enters the battlefield destroy all creatures

    But they would print
    3WW
    Sorcery
    Destroy all creatures

  18. #19798
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    I think Maro takes the blame for something that has been developments fault. If you look at most of the mechanics since Theros, they have been mechanics that fundamentally don't work when the opponent has the removal to interact with them. Remember, it's their lead developer who said that the problem with Affinity in standard was that there were too many Shatters running around stopping all the cool things he wanted to do so only the one deck was viable.
    Aren't mechanics design's jobs while development fine-tunes ideas, like adjusting power levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    The main thing i've taken away from development in playing a bunch of standard on Arena is that making wraths cost 5 and rampant growths cost 3 is really shitty for the game overall.
    People like powerful things. Overcosting everything for the sake of shitty balance is demetrical to the game. No wonder Standard has become such a shitshow over the years with overcosting everything, mana-dorks suddenly being considered OP until recently and development pushing their set sellers to stupid levels that they cause problems.

  19. #19799

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Aren't mechanics design's jobs while development fine-tunes ideas, like adjusting power levels?


    People like powerful things. Overcosting everything for the sake of shitty balance is demetrical to the game. No wonder Standard has become such a shitshow over the years with overcosting everything, mana-dorks suddenly being considered OP until recently and development pushing their set sellers to stupid levels that they cause problems.
    I think it's their aversion to universal answers. The problem is that all threats are always universal.

  20. #19800

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Aren't mechanics design's jobs while development fine-tunes ideas, like adjusting power levels?
    The quantity and quality of answers in a set falls to development.

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