Hi, thread!
The primer is very nice and I'm glad people still playing this deck.
I want to offer you the direction I never saw: the use of creatures with Exalted, namely Noble Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage. This will allow us to run less lands and now we have a maindeck answer to problematic cards (like CB or Moat). Also, Swords to Plowshares is still the best removal in format and white offers Orim's Chant to help fighting Storm combo.
The downsides are obv:
1) Non-basic hate (wich is survivable due to Hierarch).
2) The deck becomes a little slower than mono-
Now here is the sketch decklist of Exalted Berserk:
Lands (13)
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
1-COSTED DUDES (17)
4 Skarragan Pit-Skulk
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Slippery Bogle
2 Skyshroud Elite
4 Noble Hierarch
2-COSTED DUDES (11)
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Qasali Pridemage
PUMP 'N' STUFF (19)
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Berserk
3 Swords to Plowshares
SIDEBOARD
3 Winter Orb
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tormod's Crypt/Jotun Grunt/another GY hate.
I haven't tested the idea yet, but I know for sure Noble Hierarch is very underplayed card in Legacy and unlike Birds of Paradise it strangely fits in agressive decks due to that little word Exalted.
What do you think of it?
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Welcome to the thread ;),
About your list i can say that is close similar to mine (because i play white too with swords, qasalis, etc). I tested hierarch but they werenīt as good as it promised on paper so i had to cut them. Lot of time you only have a little dude on play and this mana is not as useful as other nice habilities or a big body.
Swords are very good here. This is the deck which can benefit more from swords because removal and because kavu pumps itself a lot.
Sideboarding i donīt like winter orb. I prefer choke who usually close the game when comes into play.
Thatīs my opinion.
Definitely nothing wrong with this approach, having good answers to Moat could definitely be important, depending on your metagame. I would favor Grip over Naturalize, while it's less castable, it can actually get you out of Chalice at 1+2 and doesn't die to CB.
Needle doesn't stop Loam, Dredge is a replacement effect, not an activated ability. The best we can do with it is name Factory or Port to shut those off, but really it just sucks against Loam. The rest of that list besides Belcher dies to Naturalize/Grip/Seeds/Reverent, so I'm not very sold on Needle.
Thorn doesn't work. Dropping it turn two slows down our kill by enough that they'll have the chance to just pay one more to bounce it and then kill us. Dropping it later than turn two gives them a good opportunity to just go off before then. It's not remotely assured to give a good advantage in the matchup, save the space for something that will actually destroy a problematic matchup. The only way this deck is going to have a good combo matchup is if you're in Gw and have Teeg + Canonist.
Yeah, sorry, Pithing doesn't work against loam. =/
Since my meta is got manny loams, i'm back to tormods, and probably gonna use krosan grip
Among the splashs available, the one I like more is Gw with a little splash just for the qasali and the plowshares.
I don't like noble that much, but it can see some play.
About throns, we can always kill the aggro-way, we still run 1/3 of our deck in creatures, and we can pay some extra for the pumps. I'm not sure if they can't kill us before we can cast our shards, but after we do, quite sure combo will have problems. They'll have to bounce it before combo-ing. Anyways, I can't figure out a better card against combo, at least it won't be an auto-loss...
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Thorn of Amethyst...
I played this card one year ago in my Board, without Berserks...
...the only thing I can say is, that I would only play it, if I play 4 ESG, to have a chance to play it first turn...
with Berserks, I think they're much more worse, cuz we aren't able to combokill fast enough...
I think we must play CotV or Mindbreak Trap to handle Combo...
I've also asked CHaPuZaS in the past, what he is thinking about Thorn in the board,and what he Answers was that. "I won't play Thorn in this deck (It's not THAT problem for a combodeck and you will lose a whole turn)"
YawG
Yeah, I though about it, actually... I wanted to know what was the results against combo... nice that you already have done some tests... against which decks did you try it out?
Against TES, ANT, Painter, and less competitive like Solidarity or Belcher, or any other combo-like, Chalice @0 would be good only against TES/ANT, and even so, not extremely useful...
And we can't afford for chalice@1 or 2 anyways...
Maybe we could side Bounty of the Hunt for some creature, and try to combo faster? We would have 8 0cc growths, and like 12 1cc, and zerks.
No idea on how fast we can be w/out our protection and amount of creatures though.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Not only do we have a slower goldfish than ANT, but by default we also have exactly zero hate cards for the matchup. I'm sorry, but that's just not winnable unless we get sick draws twice in a row or they mulligan into oblivion. Aside from the perfect draws that can kill T2, we usually kill T3-T5, ANT has absolutely no problem pulling solid T1-3 kills while disrupting us. How do we even race them if they Duress and snag our Berserk?
It doesn't get much better postboard -- CotV is better against us than them, Thorn slows us down just as much as them, Teeg/Cannonist require a splash, and Mindbreak Trap is certified awful. Not only do none of those assure us a win, but we have no ways to protect them from Duress/bounce/Silence they still have a faster kill than we do. It doesn't change that you need to be something of a lucksack to win the match, so I think it's a lot more efficient to just spend the SB spaces on matches that we can actually win.
You are saying that your opinion is towards ditching the machup and do some previous prayer so that we don't face a lot of them?
It's not exactly a bad idea, since Legacy is filled with control and aggro-control decks, which is also why we can afford to play this deck: we are somewhat good against them...
Although, I still fell like we should use 4-of whatever best option we get against those combos to try to amplify our chances, if it's a probable combo-infested meta. I mean, even if our option is not optimal, if it will increase our chances, we should use it, since, even in a combo-infested meta, aggro & control always has it's slice of the chart...
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Well Otter is kinda right. I think ditching the combo matchup is a good idea. You wont get a good matchup against combo even after boarding, so just let it go. And at least in my meta, you have a hard time finding combo players, so itīs better to go all out and get good cards into the sideboard against other matchups.
Combo is not THAT hard as a matchup for Berserk Stompy.
At least in Spain, the most played Combo decks are ANt and Elves! (and Ichorid).
I have thrown away the Tormod's just because you won't always win with a single Tormod's nor the game neither time enough to win the game. I prefer to play as fast as possible and win if the other player Mulls down/missplays or you combo him out of the game.
Elves are a favorable matchup, you can destroy them just by playing Skarrgan Pit-Skulk and pumping it twice or thrice.
ANT is the worst combo matchup, and even in that situation you can win them by taking most of his life out. Asume this: You are playing against a Canadian and you take him down to 4-5 life, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... You are surely going to lose. But if you are playing against an ANT and you take him down to 4-5 life (or let's say 8-10) in the second turn, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... and leaving a creture in the ground... The game is not that hard to win if you shut their Ad Nauseams.
At least, tha's what I think (And what testing shows). I have also sided 4 Mindbreak Trap to surprise them, but I didn't face any ANT last weekend... So I can't tell how good they are.
Yeah, my line of thinking is pretty much that if we board for all the control and aggro-control decks and can just slaughter them, that's enough. Losing one match to combo and winning the rest can still get you T8. Of course, this only works if you only expect a little combo. If you expect to see a combo-infested meta, I just wouldn't play this deck, period. If it's the only deck that you have built, I guess that trying to board some Mindbreaks or something so that you have a chance is the best option you have.
But seriously, if your meta is combo-infested, play a deck that involves Chalice & Trinisphere or Countertop.
I'm completely with you about Elves, Skarrgan absolutely destroys their plan of "Play 20 guys and pass the turn." Not a terrible matchup as far as combo goes.
I agree with you that Berserking a guy as soon as possible to get the ANT player low on life is a very smart plan, but I think you're overstating its effectiveness, at least depending on their list. If they're going with the Silence/Chant plan, you have a good chance of being able to get them really low. However, if they are using Duress, taking a Berserk buys them a lot of time. Note that while Mindbreak Trap is kinda nice, it also turns their Silences from bad timewalks back into fully useful cards.
Another problem is that turning off Ad Nauseam isn't that good against the lists that only play 1-2 copies of it along with 1 IGG. Going with the Infernal -> IGG plan isn't going to cost them any life and they have plenty of tutors to search it up if they need it.
I'd like to focus just for a moment on the mana base...strictly for Mono Green. The reason I bring this up is because the most common list is running 6-8 fetch lands with nothing else to fetch aside from Forest. I'm beginning to think that the potential deck thinning isn't worth the trouble. I recently lost to White Stax because of being unable to pay for Tabernacles and the sideboarded Ghostly prisons. I ended up fetching up every single land in the deck and was just cursing the uselessness of the fetches. I had two Kavus on board and Invigorate/Berserk in hand but could not get through the stall.
I'm considering upping the land count to 18-19ish with some newer tech that reduces the risk of a land light opening 7 and abandoning the fetchlands altogether...
12 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy
2-3 PendelHaven
I've been testing the PendelHavens already (3 with 14 Forests) and in well over twenty games it was well worth the spot. Silhana, Bogle, Pit Skulk, and Scryb Sprites(yes I play them still) love to see a Pendelhaven on the table.
I did notice occasional land flooding with this setup and some land screw too, which is why I started thinking about upping the land count and Canopy to smooth things out.
[edit] The side benefit is that you're not constantly shuffling the deck in every game. Beta Berserks thank you for this[/edit]
I don't play fetchlands either. I don't like to be more vulnerable to stifle, and don't like the shuffle effect. But I respect whoever runs it, I simply dont care.
I run 18 plain forest, which is more stable against almost every land-hate.
Also, I don't use extra non-basic for the same reason I stick to monogreen. I don't like wastelands slowing me down. But there again, it's an option. Just not the general option...
But Horizon Canopy seems quite nice...
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I will always stick to basic lands in the monogreen version. Sure Canopy and Pendelhaven are "strictly" better than a Forest... In theory, but not in the format where Wasteland is the king. You'll be facing too many situations where your opponents can get rid of you just by taking out your Canopy (Not to say when you have a Pendelhaven in hand and in play, belive me, it happen me like 8 years ago in a 300 people vintage tournament).
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Yes I understand that can happen but this is why you cant just continue to run 17 lands at that point. If you go up to 19 then you can afford to have something wasted and still expect to stick 2 or 3 on the table.
Now think late game. If your opponent manages to neutralize your early threats enough to stay alive, Pendelhaven cuts your clock in half if you're stuck with a 1/1 (hope it's Ledgewalker). If you topdeck a fetchland, it's a land no matter what, however, saccing a Canopy, topdecked or already in play, is more than two thirds threat, i.e., not land. Note, this is all of course just theorizing until I get s'more time and Canopies to test it.
No. I've never considered it for a moment. Basically, If it does't tap for green, I don't want it...and yes, that includes fetchlands at the moment.
@ CHaPuZaS: ...how were the Vines of Vastwood in the tournament?
Do you liked/disliked them? ...are 2 of them the right number? ...would be nice to get some feedback...
P.S. ...test the Nettle Sentinels, seriously... it's like I told you, that they are superior to Maniacs and Lions =P=P=P
YawG
If you play the multicolored version (Grw) you can play Pyrostatic pillar which is soo good vs ANT elves and combo ;) besides of any type of red removal clasm (cause your guys are 3 resistance or greater ;) ).
The bad thing is that stifle and wastes are bad for you so up the count lands to 20 (8+8+4)).
In the monocolored version the only thing you can do against combo is being faster than him, so be lucky ;)
Iīve tested pendelhaven and canopys. Pendelhaven falls from my list when i decided to use big monsters (nacatl, herds, etc), now the only little guys iīm using are silhanas and sometimes boggles so they are not welcome here. If i was playing MONOG, i only use a couple of them. More than that are too much. Canopys are good on paper, but not as good as you can think on the play because itīs wasteable, yo need mana to play critters and pump and canīt not spend time on drawing cards with them and have a low count of lands so itīs not as good as you can think playing them.
Well, wastelands are not to be a replacement of forests, I never said they were.
The main reason I would run wastelands is that it will see play situations in 90% of the matchs it comes into play. Basically, it tries to slow my opponent down to a land count similar to mine, while it can also be used to hate problematic ability lands, as rishadean or maze.
Raising the land count, let's say, to 17 forests + 3~4 wastelands, also will let you run krosan grip more confortably as sideboard...
But that's just my considerations about wastelands, which may not fit our game plan.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
hello guys...
after a bit of testing, and a friend of mine playing this deck on a tournament, we found out, that you can easily run only 14-15 lands (without fetches) in the deck...
...we got only one time screwed to 1 mana, and we get the 3rd land drop on turn 3-4 over 90% of the time...
...just wanted to inform you about that
YawG
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