Mirror Sigil sergeant + Vesuvan shapeshifter

[Offler]

Sergeant is in play.

I copy it with Vesuvan Shapeshifter. We will wait for a while.

We have here copies of Sergeants which have Shapeshifter's ability to turn face down. If i face them down can i face them up again?

I asked in different forum and i get answer that i cannot because the copies are Tokens and they will lose "face up ability" while they it is not in their original text.

Today i read some information of Body Double. There was described really mad interaction. If the Body Double copies Vesuvan Shapeshifter and "As comes into play" another creature it can be turned face down, and later can be turned Face up and copying another creature.

Is that a different case, or people on another forum were wrong? I'm really confused.

[parallax]

The tokens created by the Vesuvan Shapeshifter copying Mirror-Sigil Sargeant will be copies of Vesuvan Shapeshifter (also copying Mirror-Sigil Sargeant), as will all tokens created by those tokens, but not tokens created by non-Shapeshifter Sargeants and Sargeant tokens.

As copies of Vesuvan Shapeshifter (copying MSS), they can be turned face down. When this happens, the copy effect making them copies of MSS ends, but not the copy effect making them copies of Vesuvan Shapeshifter. Thus, they are still copies of Vesuvan Shapeshifter, and have morph , can still be turned face up, and when that happens, they may copy any creature on the battlefield.

Same thing with Body Double copying Vesuvan Shapeshifter. Note that Body Double will copy any copy effects on Vesuvan Shapeshifter, and will become whatever Vesuvan Shapeshifter is currently copying. If the Vesuvan Shapeshifter is not copying anything, then you may choose any creature on the battlefield for it to copy.

[Offler]

Well before i was trying some shapeshifters and i was quite familiar with them. Body double copying Vesuvan Shapeshifter in grave was the easy one and it surprised many people that i am still able to bring back that nasty copy machine, without taking him from the grave. It was very intuitive for me.

MSS and creating a copies of it was quite too much for me.

Clone - MSS was copied and the clone behaves as normal MSS...
Vesuvan Doppleganger - Nice. We have Blue MSS which does not need another blue permanent, and its spreading into copies which can copy another creatures by Dopplegangers ability.
Followed Footsteps - Nice. Another multiplications without another side effects
Dance of Many - As long i know only the first copy, directly connected with this spell will be destroyed along with Dance of many, copies created by MSS ability will survive.

Vesuvan Shapeshifter - i thought the same as you - once multiplied it is Vesuvan Shapeshifter morphed into MSS, with all abilities except there is one single difference.

The copied Vesuvan Shapeshifter in form of MSS is token, except the original VShapeshifter.

I was told that token faced down for example with Ixidron will lose all abilities. Only cards which have written on them "Morph [cost]" can be morphed into original form.

Sorry for repeating the question, i'll try to be more specific ... What happens with tokens when they are turned face down by some effect? Especially when they are supposed to carry some text, which is a result of an ability.

[Malchar]

This might help, but It's not entirely definitive:

110.5b The spell or ability that creates a token may define the values of any number of characteristics for the token. This becomes the token’s “text.” The characteristic values defined this way are functionally equivalent to the characteristic values that are printed on a card; for example, they define the token’s copiable values. A token doesn’t have any characteristics not defined by the spell or ability that created it.

It seems like a copy is the same as a written value.

While I was looking at the rules, I came up with a new question that is somewhat related. While the original question is not necessarily answered, I'll add this to the fray:
I have a Vesuvan Doppleganger come into play copying an unflipped Jushi Apprentice. The Vesuvan Doppleganger later becomes flipped by using its new ability. Does the Vesuvan Doppleganger retain the ability to change what it's copying at the beginning of the upkeep?

[Offler]

The rules seems clear to me. When the card is faced down the effect does not ask whether it is token or not. Also it does not ask if the text is really written on the card or just created by some effect.

Feel free to discuss questions about Flipping. I am also curious about this.

[Anusien]

I have a Vesuvan Doppleganger come into play copying an unflipped Jushi Apprentice. The Vesuvan Doppleganger later becomes flipped by using its new ability. Does the Vesuvan Doppleganger retain the ability to change what it's copying at the beginning of the upkeep?

No. If Vesuvan Doppelganger flips, it still has the Doppelganger ability.

But it is now flipped. If you choose to have it copy some other flip card (whether it is flipped or not) it will become the flipped version.

[Malchar]

I think you misunderstood - or maybe I don't understand your answer - because you seem to contradict yourself.The Vesuvan Doppleganger becomes flipped while it's copying a Jushi Apprentice. I know that it remains as a copy of Jushi, but can it still change targets?

Basically, it looks like when the Vesuvan Doppleganger starts copying something, it gives itself the ability to switch during the upkeep. If it starts copying a Jushi, but then it becomes flipped, does the other side of the Jushi also have the ability to change targets during the upkeep?

[Offler]

Does the flipping use stack?

Or it changes depending on what kind of flip it was?

[Anusien]

I think you misunderstood - or maybe I don't understand your answer - because you seem to contradict yourself.The Vesuvan Doppleganger becomes flipped while it's copying a Jushi Apprentice. I know that it remains as a copy of Jushi, but can it still change targets?

Well it becomes a copy of Tomoya the Revealer. And if you later copy a Nezumi Graverobber, Vesuvan Doppelganger becomes a copy of Nighteyes the Desecrator.

Basically, it looks like when the Vesuvan Doppleganger starts copying something, it gives itself the ability to switch during the upkeep. If it starts copying a Jushi, but then it becomes flipped, does the other side of the Jushi also have the ability to change targets during the upkeep?

As I said, (I guess the "No" is confusing you, my apologies), it retains the ability to change targets. I don't know what makes you think it would lose the ability.

Flipped is like being tapped; it's a status that gets copied. When something becomes flipped, it sometimes has different characteristics.

[parallax]

Flipping only affects which set of characteristics are on the flip card. Any other effects (such as Vesuvan Shapeshifter's copy effect) will remain. Just like a Giant Growthed Jushi Apprentice will become a Giant Growthed Tomoya the Revealer.

Flipping itself doesn't use the stack. The activated or triggered ability of the card uses the stack and flipping occurs during the resolution of that ability. For example, you pay and tap Jushi Apprentice. That ability goes on the stack. When the ability resolves, you draw a card, and if you have nine cards, you flip Jushi Apprentice.

[Offler]

If you choose to have it copy some other flip card (whether it is flipped or not) it will become the flipped version.

For example i will copy the Jushi Apprentice, I will flip the Vesuvan, and later i may copy Erayo while Vesuvan is now flipped will become Erayo's essence, which is indeed NOT a creature? :)

Once the card is fliped it stays flipped as it is on the battlefield.

What if i copy Tomoya (card already flipped) and later Erayo (not flipped yet)?