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Thread: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

  1. #1

    [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ed-list-legacy

    Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

    Decks that get worse: MUD (no Metalworker/Monolith/City), Dredge (no LED), Elves (No Cradle), Lands (no Mox Diamond/Tabernacle), Aluren (lol)
    Decks that get better: Aggro/Burn strategies due to the life impact of shocklands, decks that already don't care about their life
    Hard to tell: Storm (no LED, but less Storm count needed so maybe it cancels out?)

    (Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).

  2. #2

    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian View Post
    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ed-list-legacy

    Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

    (Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).
    It's an interesting thought experiment. What I fail to grasp is why would WotC even think of doing it in the first place? It seems to be kicking up a storm for no real reason. It might as well be an article based on "What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards gave us 1 free blue mana per turn?" It doesn't address any of the perceived 'problems' of Legacy either way.

  3. #3

    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian View Post
    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ed-list-legacy

    Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

    Decks that get worse: MUD (no Metalworker/Monolith/City), Dredge (no LED), Elves (No Cradle), Lands (no Mox Diamond/Tabernacle), Aluren (lol)
    Decks that get better: Aggro/Burn strategies due to the life impact of shocklands, decks that already don't care about their life
    Hard to tell: Storm (no LED, but less Storm count needed so maybe it cancels out?)

    (Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).
    Isn't this basically just modern? Or is the difference that you'd allow commons and uncommons from sets that rares are on the reserve list?

    Also when you say "get worse", I think you really mean stop being decks. Painter Stratagies also stop being a deck.

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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    As somebody who primarily plays fringe decks, this would completely kill Legacy for me. The loss of City of Traitors alone would be crippling, not to mention Aluren, Moat, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Grim Monolith and a bunch of other cards that fuel my favorite decks. The format would basically be Modern except that I would still have to deal with bullshit like Deathrite Shaman and Brainstorm which thankfully are not legal in the latter format. This change would barely impact blue decks but would weaken or kill pretty much every alternative strategy. The author's contempt for a lot of these strategies was obvious ("no great loss" etc.).
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    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    I like Saffron, but I disagree with a lot of points he makes with his article.

    For one, it's far too early to declare Legacy "dead". Sure WotC's support has been downright bad and there is a void left by SCG not supporting the format. However, that doesn't mean there won't be people to fill that need on the local level. Tales of Adventure and TOGIT are already doing so in the northeast.

    Secondly, the way he casually states that losing the dual lands would be "least impactful changes to the format" is ludicrous. Just swap duals for shocks one-for-one? That should really work for all the Delver decks that run Daze.

  6. #6

    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    = basicaly killing the identity and every fun element in legacy

  7. #7

    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul7926 View Post
    It's an interesting thought experiment. What I fail to grasp is why would WotC even think of doing it in the first place? It seems to be kicking up a storm for no real reason. It might as well be an article based on "What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards gave us 1 free blue mana per turn?" It doesn't address any of the perceived 'problems' of Legacy either way.
    Well the author is mostly coming from a finance background, so it solves the "problem" of there being no financial incentive for Wizards or tournament organizers to support the format. Legacy players are way less likely to buy new product, which means Wizards doesn't directly profit from the format's existence. And without Wizards support, TOs are way less likely to bother running Legacy events when they could run Modern instead and piggyback on official MTG marketing pushing the format.

  8. #8

    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    As a European I'm starting to get a little bored of the hyperbole that states "SCG stop holding legacy events = Death of Legacy". It's just not true.

    The format will live or die based on support for it. If enough people want to play then TO's will hold events. Maybe WotC stops holding Legacy events, so what, that just means that TO's can run Legacy with a certain amount of proxies and even more people can play. WotC made the cards and WotC sold us the cards (well they sold them to someone and we probably bought them 12th hand or whatever) and now we own the cards we can use them how we want. We can attend or organize whatever we want. We don't need SCG to hold our hand and tell us not to be afraid of the dark.

    Worst case I can see is that playing Legacy will not get you qualified for the Pro-Tour. Well guess what, that will probably be standard anyway so why would I want to play in it?

    If I'm missing something important then I'm more than prepared to listen to arguments/logic/facts to explain that to me but I just don't buy into the 'sky is falling' mantra I'm hearing all the time.

  9. #9
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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian View Post
    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ed-list-legacy

    Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.
    you'd end up with an unbalanced modernesque format

    Believe it or not the fact of having to use shock lands changes things. Taking 2 damage or slowing down play is noticeable in a format like legacy where things are incredibly powerful. Waste landing an ETB tapped shock land you get no use out of it. If you want to use it you shock yourself. Over the course of a game 3-4 shocks adds up and aggressive decks have an advantage.

    The format would be better than modern currently but still not legacy. It would have to be balanced again.
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  10. #10

    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian View Post
    And without Wizards support, TOs are way less likely to bother running Legacy events when they could run Modern instead and piggyback on official MTG marketing pushing the format.
    What I'm unclear about (and I'm no TO so I have no facts) is if that statement is even true. I would assume that if x people want to play Legacy and y people want to play modern then a TO would do better to host the tournament for whichever of x or y was greater. It is therefore down to the Legacy players to support, nurture and grow the player base for the format they love to ensure they are the chosen format.

    I accept that price is a barrier to entry but it's only a barrier. If someone really wants to play Legacy they will cope with using shock whilst they save for duals, they will cope with not running as many Wasteland as the list probably should, they will cope with too few FoW for a while. However to get someone to the point of doing that they need to be allowed to see and play Legacy and know that there are a core of players locally who are not going to vanish overnight.

    I think the point that I'm probably making badly is that if Legacy players want the format to survive and grow then it's Legacy players that have the power to affect that by being active in their local community, being inclusive and supportive of people interested in the format, attending as many events as they reasonably can to show support (regardless of the EV of the payout structure). If, as a community, we sit back, don't attend anything, don't support the format we can't expect a company to do that for us. Companies need to make money (not just want but need) and they will support competitive rock-paper-scissors if there is a profit in it.

    It's down to the community, not SCG, not WotC, not the RL and not straw clutching banning or format changes.

    I mean EDH survives. There are no EDH Pro tours, or GP's or PTQ's but the players like it so they play it so it survives.

  11. #11

    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    What a waste of text. I can't believe I'm saying it ... but ... go play modern. If you want to tackle the issue of new players financially getting into Legacy then debunk the myth of cheap standard, the fact that half a dozen modern staples are also legacy staples and they are $80-100. "In Modern, if Tarmogoyf gets too expensive" ... Goyf is $146? There were $150 Underground Seas at GP Atlanta. I have no sympathy for a modern barnacle crying that Legacy is too expensive if he's spending $125 on a non reserved list quad reprinted Lhurgoyf.

    Finally there are reserved list skirting ways WotC could get poor people into legacy, they actively choose not to do it

    - From the Vaults Eternal: Force, Port, LotV, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Sneak Attack, Goyf, Some Artifact ... Jitte?, Pox, Karakas

    this would benefit the masses with respect to modern and legacy, they would be hideous and forever a mark of shame on all who played them but they would squirt some supply into the market.

    These would obviously sell out at whatever print run given near unlimited demand. The originals would see a small dip as speculators pretend to play wall street but the prices, as always, would rebound because demand is so strong for not-shitty looking foils. Before proposing shit legacy, this is a better solution.

  12. #12
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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Finally there are reserved list skirting ways WotC could get poor people into legacy, they actively choose not to do it

    - From the Vaults Eternal: Force, Port, LotV, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Sneak Attack, Goyf, Some Artifact ... Jitte?, Pox, Karakas

    this would benefit the masses with respect to modern and legacy, they would be hideous and forever a mark of shame on all who played them but they would squirt some supply into the market.

    These would obviously sell out at whatever print run given near unlimited demand. The originals would see a small dip as speculators pretend to play wall street but the prices, as always, would rebound because demand is so strong for not-shitty looking foils. Before proposing shit legacy, this is a better solution.
    Sadly, going by their current policy they can't print a FTV to get around this either.

    'A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.'

    Link.
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    Sadly, going by their current policy they can't print a FTV to get around this either.

    'A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.'

    Link.
    None of the cards he mentioned are reserved, though. That's the point. They are still scarce and high-priced.

    In fact if you look at the OP's article, the only really expensive RL cards that are heavily played in the format are duals. LED/Cradle maybe but like nedleeds said, if you'll shell out $125 x 4 for Tarmogoyf or $75 for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or even $50 for Arcbound Ravager, you can afford your set of those reserved cards assuming you're buying the other unreserved cards like Heritage Druid or Infernal Tutor which can be reprinted and tanked at any time. It's the duals that are the true barrier and the only way to get around that is to break the RL.

    I agree with what many responses to this article have said. The reserved cards may be few, but many are what makes Legacy the format it is. Honestly, I would rather see the duals banned alone than LED/Aluren/Mox Diamond type cards. Shocks would make an approximation of the format without taking out some of the more charming quirks from MTG history. Of course, banning duals would rock the secondary market so much as to make their presence on the RL pointless.

    There is no solution to growing Legacy (at least to Wizards' and TOs' definition of "growing") that doesn't involve killing the RL or doing something that the risk-averse clowns in R&D would never do (like push the RW color combination to make Plateau a strong card, or print some sort of alternative parasitic manabase that competes with fetch + dual for efficiency.)

  14. #14
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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    alternative parasitic manabase that competes with fetch + dual for efficiency.)
    How would that even look like? It's impossible to make a dual colored land better or competitive with an original dual. All the ones that are just utility lands like Horizon Canopy. So maybe stuff like:

    Land - [Type]
    T: Pay 1 life add Color 1 or Color 2 to your mana pool
    1 (or D if you want it to be super hard) T: Sac, [Utility effect]

    and

    Land
    T: sac, fetch a [Type].

    And even in that case. . . . dual plus fetchs are probably better anyway.

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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    None of the cards he mentioned are reserved, though. That's the point. They are still scarce and high-priced.

    In fact if you look at the OP's article, the only really expensive RL cards that are heavily played in the format are duals. LED/Cradle maybe but like nedleeds said, if you'll shell out $125 x 4 for Tarmogoyf or $75 for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or even $50 for Arcbound Ravager, you can afford your set of those reserved cards assuming you're buying the other unreserved cards like Heritage Druid or Infernal Tutor which can be reprinted and tanked at any time. It's the duals that are the true barrier and the only way to get around that is to break the RL.
    Those prices are currently how the system functions but if you eliminate modern and replace it with legacy the cost of led skyrockets as there are now twice as many people looking for it. It probably wouldnt double but the demand increases significantly.

    One option for creating similar duals might be "rain of tears" type lands that are fetchable.
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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    nedleeds nailed it.
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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    None of the cards he mentioned are reserved, though. That's the point. They are still scarce and high-priced.
    Ah, my mistake! Then yes, I totally agree with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    How would that even look like? It's impossible to make a dual colored land better or competitive with an original dual. All the ones that are just utility lands like Horizon Canopy. So maybe stuff like:

    Land - [Type]
    T: Pay 1 life add Color 1 or Color 2 to your mana pool
    1 (or D if you want it to be super hard) T: Sac, [Utility effect]

    and

    Land
    T: sac, fetch a [Type].

    And even in that case. . . . dual plus fetchs are probably better anyway.
    Like I said, that's R&D's problem. They've tooled around with snow and legendary duals so maybe the RL isn't as draconian as they make it sound with the references to Reverberate.

    The leaked card Waste lacks a basic land type which means they missed the clear opportunity to do this:

    Waste
    Basic land - Waste
    (T: Add <> to your mana pool)

    Wastefetch
    Land
    T, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Wastefetch: Search your library for a Waste card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

    Wasteisland
    Land - Waste Island
    (T: Add <> or U to your mana pool)

    And so on...

  19. #19

    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    This is pretty similar to the reasoning Wizards had when they created Modern. There is also the myth that Wizards doesn't profit from Legacy and Vintage. Some reasons why it's false:
    1. Its players still buy cards from new sets. Whether they buy packs or not is irrelevant, it will still increase total packs sales.
    2. It gives value to cards after they rotate from Standard, get banned from Modern or get printed in supplemental products.
    3. It helps their business partners, game stores, make money from the second hand market. Thriving business partners is a key part to WotC business model.
    4. Really expensive cards make people more easily spend money on cheaper cards. It is similar to why casinos have $500 or $1000 slot machines even if almost no one ever use them.
    5. There is a segment of players that only play Legacy or Vintage. Catering to them is better than losing customers.
    6. Some players play Legacy and also high earning formats like Commander, Modern and Prereleases. They might not particīpate in those if it wasn't from Legacy.


    Wizards also doesn't want any format to eclipse Standard. They've been pushing it since 1995 and will always do. The question isn't how to make Legacy more profitable for Wizards but how to make Magic more profitable for them.

  20. #20
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    Re: [Article] No Reserved List Legacy

    I like it. It's like Overextended with Force of Will, Wasteland, and some janky stuff.

    If anyone wants to start brewing, I'm in.

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