Has anyone considered running Summoner's Pact here? Seems like an easy hand fix for the turn you drop Eureka, plus you know you've got the mana to pay next upkeep if you're casting Eureka. If not Pact, what about Worldly Tutor? That seems like a cheaper alternative to Fierce Empath, and since you have to reveal both, the only drawback is the fact that you have to put it on top of your library. EOT Worldly Tutor strikes me as better than a main-phased Empath though. Just a thought.
The difference between Wordly Tutor and Empath, is mainly that Worldly Tutor is card disadvantage, and Empath is actually card advantage, which is so important when you play a spell that puts permanents into play. Empath also chumpblocks Lackeys, goyfs, and sucks up removal, allowing you to play your bigger threats with less chances of being dealt with, which pushes the card over the edge. I don't know about Summoner's Pact, the card seems too situation and expensive and isn't actually able to fetch Eldrazi.Originally Posted by swarm187
Gratz to the finish. I'm aware that there are going to be space issues, but just asking: Why not make a hybrid with Natural Order instead if pushing your luck with Eureka? You are already running Progenitus.
Eureka's price tag is retarded and it also has potential to backfire. Hierarch + BoP + Fetches for a single Dryad Arbor should provide some solid creature count for NO. Plus, it can be fetched with Tutor, so you aren't required to hold a fatty in your hand to "go off".
Ok, 2 things:
1) That wasn't me I was just commenting on the list.
2) What exactly are you going to cut for birds? If your opponent knows what you're playing, running hierarch over lands 17-20 is already a bad idea.
I am going to laugh the moment I see someone run Kederekt Leviathan as super secret tech against this deck.
There has been some criticism of the BOP slot. There has also been the suggestion of more 2 mana producing lands. How about Eladamri's Vineyard? It accelerates the deck more than BOP and will provide a turn 2 Eureka with a 2 land hand. The negatives are that it decreases the power of daze on your opponents turn but it could give daze protection on the turn you go off. I think I'll get some. There is of course the liability of giving your opponent gg for free but I think it could work out. Plus, it is another seemingly symmetric card for this deck, which is pretty neat, not that it matters.
-Peace
It's interesting, I was unaware of that card...but playing that makes waste on your blue source even worse. With daze in there I really think the deck just needs 4 more fetches in place of hierarch.
I think that the Noble Heirarchs are in that list to nullify Innocent Blood/ Diabolic Edict effects aside from the obvious mana accerelation applications. I run Decree of Silence in my blue based Eureka list for similiar reasons. I'll post my blue based list in a bit.
Ok, I know this deck doesn't actually have eureka in it...but since this thread had some discussion on a similar deck/it hasn't had much attention lately ...here it is. The basic idea is that black discard can rip relevant threats and show and tell is the card you want to play anyway (over eureka).
4 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 misty rainforest
1 swamp
1 island
4 progenitus
4 emrakul
1 Iona
1 wipe away
4 show and tell
4 brainstorm
4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 lotus petal
4 mystical tutor
4 force of will
4 ponder
1 personal tutor
Last edited by kinda; 05-10-2010 at 06:43 PM.
When you use deckcheck.net to search for Lightning Bolt, you get 1426 search results; too many to display the individual decks that use them. Swords to Plowshares returns an even higher 2581 hits. Using the same site and its "Most Played Cards in Legacy" page, we find that Swords is the 9th most used card in the whole format with 9808 copies. Bolt trails at 18th with 5514.
Innocent Blood/Diabolic Edict/Chainer's Edict/Gatekeeper of Malakir/etc. do not even come close to those numbers. Searching the entire DeckCheck database, we find the following results for these sacrifice effects:
Innocent Blood: 78 decks
Diabolic Edict: 206 decks
Chainer's Edict: 51 decks
Gatekeeper of Malakir: 42 decks
Warren Weirding: 164 decks
Compared to the whopping 1426 and 2481 results of the spot removal, these sacrifice effects don't even compare in prevalence.
Hierarch is a tempting early game target. This is especially true with Bolt. Your opponent knows you aren't going to have any other creatures worth bolting; why give them an effective +4 Wastelands? The same goes for Daze, which can easily take out a Hierarch off your first turn draw. This deck already has vulnerabilities with its critical sorceries (Show and Tell, Eureka). Why add to that with Hierarch?
Sacrifice effects are just not widely used enough to warrant the Hierarch's inclusion. This might be a meta-dependent call, but for the most part, you would rather have the extra land than the vulnerable acceleration.
-ktkenshinx-
I think that Noble Hierarch is BAD in the deck. I'd much rather run Elvish Spirit Guide which not only gets around sac effects, but Daze effects as well, whenever avaliable. It accelerants a turn sooner and is more resistent to removal.
I also feel that Fierce Empath is a gem for the deck, generating card advantage and allowing you to run x1 ofs of other Eldrazi
I'm also very tempted to build and test a BG Eureka build. Eureka is one of those cards where card advantage is essential. And black has alot to offer such as Sign In Blood, Night's Whisper, Skeletal Scrying, aside from the obvious Thoughtseize/Duress effects that naturally come with it.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind also seems like a good empath target when your fatties are down but can be outraced. Seems like a good x1 of to me.
Another direction is to convert to a cascade hypergenesis build. It solves the budget problems of obtaining eureka, and adds a degree of brokenness albeit at the cost of greater variance.
Compared to the extended versions, we have Force and misdirection to protect the combo, and Shown Tell provides a 2 pronged strategy.
Has anyone considered thie strategy?
Calls for banning are almost always the scrubs way out. Real men view a challenge as something to overcome, a puzzle to solve, an opportunity to be had, and the source of evolution.
I wish...but with cascade you can't play 1-2 cc protection spells, brainstorm, ponder, or color fixing excel...
This deck is terrible in the current metagame of goblins, merfolk, and new horizan being all top decks. All of those decks have good game against it. Game one in those games are terrible against goblins and new horizans and 40/60 with merfolk or less. The heirarchs were for edict effects from goblins, and decks with burning wish that get edict effects such as aggro loam, etc. while allowing for more mana and accelleration and playing less mana sources.
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