Do you think it's possible that the common wisdom that B/U Reanimator wins more game/performs better might be wrong? Is it possible for consistency and explosiveness to trump resiliency and flexibility?
That's what I am left wondering after this past week of testing sessions.
Me and my friend have been alternating back and forth between playing my Mono B Reanimator deck and his B/U Reanimator deck (a replica of the GP Madrid winning deck), and we're now both fairly convinced that Mono B Reanimator is the overall better performing deck!!
On paper, B/U Reanimator looks a lot more flexible and resilient. But in practice, Black actually has lots of resiliency as well, and what it's lacking in, it more than makes up for in consistency. The Mono B Reanimator deck combos off a LOT faster and more frequently, combos off multiple times in the same game when neccesary, and all this serves to make it a much more brutal deck to contend with for most matchups.
The performance seemed so lopsided, that he is actually switching his B/U deck over to Mono B Reanimator this weekend.
There's a couple of reasons why I think this is so...
A.) Black already is more than capable of answering everything. I play 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Unmask, 2 Cabal Therapy and even sideboard 4 Duress. If I see more hate, I would maindeck the Duress. Those cards are honestly as good as countermagic. It's hard to overstate how useful it is to know every single card in your opponent's hand. You know exactly what the right play is at any time because of this.
Usually, if I have none of my 4 Entomb or 4 Buried Alive or 3-4 Beseech in my hand, but I do have a creature and I opt not to mulligan, I just draw go to discard the creature the next turn. But if I have discard effects to spare, Thoughtseize, Unmask and Cabal Therapy are also awesome in letting me discard my own creature.
In addition, I play 3-4 Beseech the Queen the deck and a single Nev's Disk as a one of in the maindeck (more in the board that I can bring in. This gives me the perfect out against Leyline, Countertop, Chalice, Swarm Aggro and all sorts of other randomness. And Beseech also helps make the deck a lot more consistent, when it's not answering stuff like Leyline. I play Dark Rituals and 19 Swamp to help me fuel these cards out fast with little difficulty (and I even bring in Mishra's Factories from the board to speed this up. Factories are helpful in holding off aggro and standstill decks are also awesome against Edict/Gatekeeper/Pox effects).
Beseech is an absolutely fantastic tutor (and can always be pitched to Unmask when not needed), and it's another reason to play Mono B.
B.) The deck is a LOT more consistent. Between 4 Entomb, 4 Buried Alive, 3-4 Beseech, being able to discard my own creatures by passing the turn, or by using my discard effects, I almost never need to mulligan and I never have difficulty getting a creature into my yard (even after Bajuka Bog or something cleans out my yard).
Between 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 4 Animate Dead and 1-2 Life/Death (and Beseech to tutor for more), I never have any difficulty Reanimating creatures, multiple times in a game if neccesary.
Both me and him and our whole store notice that my deck seems to be comboing out faster and more frequently, all while Thoughtseizing/Unmasking away any possible answers my opponents may have in hand.
For reference here is the list I'm currently playing (one of two cards keep switching back and forth but it's always 98% the same). I don't even think it's an optimized list, and I might be better off just playing more lands instead of dark rituals. But nevertheless, the deck still works well.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
0/2 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
1 Life/Death
(I've been toying with the idea of playing another Life/Death or maybe Dance of the Dead, or maybe even Necromancy above)
4 Beseech the Queen
1 Nev's Disk (This card has won me so many games and in so many different random situations it's nuts).
4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive
1 Iona
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Dark Ritual
2 Mishra's Factory
17 Swamp
My sideboard is probably not optimal, but this is what I went with and it's been working great for me...
2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline (This is a flex slot and could be just about anything).
3 Nev's Disk (Disking your opponent is an enormous tempo gain against most every aggro and aggro control matchup, and you can do it on turn three with a Dark Ritual)
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Dark Ritual (It helps vs. combo).
2 Mishra's Factory (Factory is great at getting you the Mana to play disk, while also helping you stall aggro decks or dodge Edict effects. But the card could also be Bajuka Bog if you're not playing Leyline, or Wasteland if you fear Maze of Ith and play fewer creatures with Shroud or something)
Before you are quick to disagree, I urge you to try something like this out.
The deck is incredibly powerful and consistent. Just try it out online if you want (though the shuffler is crap on Workstation).
I am also considering the possibility of relegating Nev's Disk to the sideboard entirely to simply play 4 Beseech or perhaps to play 4 Phyrexian Arena in place of Beseech, because of the inherent consistency of the deck. I would consider Confidant but that seems rather suicidal with all the high cc cards.
Here is the BU Reanimator list that was good enough to win GP Madrid, but that my list consistently seems to outperform...
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
16 lands
1 Blazing Archon
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
7 creatures
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
1 Dark Ritual
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
2 Thoughtseize
I would like to discuss with other Reanimator players why the Mono B version might be performing better, or if other reanimator players have had contradictory findings. I feel it could be very fruitful. It may well end up being the case that the ideal version of the deck is a U/b version of the deck that is identical to the Mono B version I posted above, except replacing Beseech with Mystical Tutor and Nev's Disk and Dark Ritual with Brainstorm. Having this discussion, and comparing the performance of the two decks is the only way to know for certain.
Last edited by Jon Stewart; 04-26-2010 at 03:50 AM.
Coming from someone who's tinkered around with both, my experience tells me than Mono-B is actually not more "consistent". Brainstorm and Ponder add a very real bit of consistency. As does Mystical Tutor, because there's alot of assurance. Not playing these cards gives you room to play more Step 1 and 2 cards in this deck, but then you become more dependant on your opening hand. This could be because I was playing with a Putrid Imp build, where yours plays all straight tutors, but I'm not sure. I think they're both terrific decks, and deserve some acclaim, but I'm still not certain about which one is "better". I never tried Nev's Disk, but I don't think it belongs MD. It requires 4 lands without Ritual, and you're only playing 19. I could see it in the Sideboard.
Thank you for the well thought out post.
Maybe you're right, but in my experience, there were plenty of times when I kept a hand with the hope that a Brainstorm or Ponder can get the remaining combo piece, and then was stuck when the card failed to do so. But perhaps I was misplaying the deck and should have mulled more often or something. With the Mono B build, you get a much better idea of exactly what your first few turns look like and can decide whether to mulligan or not based on this. And thanks to the discard, you get a much better idea of exactly what your opponent's first several turns look like.
It also sucks royally that the B/U build plays such an anemically low land count and is almost dependent on the cantrips to make up for this.
Disk has saved my butt a couple of times in game one, but I could see relegating the card entirely to the board, and only bringing it against Leyline, and also when I bring in some Mishra's Factories from the board to supplement it. This in turn would let me play the 4th Beseech in the maindeck and use the card entirely to tutor up lacking combo pieces, further improving consistency.
I do think a lot of this has to do with the fact that you were playing a Putrid Imp build. The Putrid Imp strategy seems rather weak but I would be curious to see the list you played
What do you do in the mirror when the opponent gets iona out naming black ?
Well I wouldn't limit the discussion to just B and U/B. Old school Dragon Reanimator was pretty dam good. Kilnmouth Dragon is nuts in the right build. Some dude played it at my local store back in 07. It looked pretty dam good actually.
EDIT:
I played both B and UB, (I currently play UBg on the side). UBg has been by far the best build I've played with, especially recently with Iona (I played Reanimator in 05-07 way before Iona).
Vacrix, do you mind posting the Mono B list you played, and the most favorite Reanimator list you played, just so we get a better idea of how your deck functioned. I don't know if I'm missing something, but Kilnmouth Dragon seems horrible as a Reanimate target.
After they get Iona out, your best option is using Nev's Disk to destroy it.Originally Posted by Some Guy
But before they get Iona out, you have tons of options...
Leyline of the Void (or Bojuka Bog) from the Sideboard
Use your discard to get rid of their Reanimate effects.
Use your Reanimate effects (you play a lot more of them than they do), to Reanimate creatures (and Iona naming Blue) from their graveyard.
Reanimate a creature (ideally Iona but even Inkwell works) before they do and race them.
If they're not playing Leylines in the board, I would say that you are the favored deck in this matchup (to my knowledge, most B/U lists don't play Leylines in the board). My friends deck is a close copy of the GP Madrid list and thus wasn't playing Leylines, and whenever we sideboarded, I usually won handily, but we played mostly non sideboard games. Even if they are playing Leylines, I would guess it's not too far away from 50/50, which is exactly what you would expect in a mirror matchup.
Have you actually beaten Leyline with the disk? It seems like MonoB's solutions to hate are really clunky compared to UB's.
Several of the things you like about your mono-black build can just as easily be incorporated into a blue-black shell. Including Dark Rituals, lowering the creature count, and moving discard spells to the main are all improvements that can be made to any build of the deck.
After that, you're left to decide whether to play Brainstorm, Ponder, and Mystical Tutor, or Beseech the Queen, Animate Dead, and Buried Alive. I don't think this is a very hard decision.
I don't think it's that simple. If you do that, you're giving up playing 4 creature buriers and 4 reanimators (both combo pieces) for 8 cantrips.
You would become absurdly reliant on Entomb, and being able to mull into or tutor for Entomb every game when you do that. Cantrips like Brainstorm and Ponder aren't all that reliable when what you are seeking is a very specific card like Entomb that you only play four copies of.
And all the while, you're also playing far fewer reanimate effects so you will have to try to get those with your mulligans, cantrips and tutors as well.
I've had Brainstorm and Careful Study whiff on me multiple times. And many times, in the blue version, I wind up with neither a burier, not a reanimate effect in my hand where as that pretty much never ever happens with the black version since it plays as many bury effects and reanimate effects as decks like Fairie Stompy play blue sources. So it's pretty easy to figure out what to Beseech for in any situation.
But I'll take your point into consideration. I'm going to ask my friend to do just that, play the same build I'm playing but going...
-4 Beseech the Queen
-4 Animate Dead
-4 Buried Alive
+4 Brainstorm
+4 Ponder
+4 Mystical Tutor
and see how that version performs.
Jon, back in the day I played something like this:
Mono-B:
Creatures:
4 Putrid Imp
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Phantom Nishoba
1 Sundering Titan
1 Simic Skyswallower
1 Blazing Archon
1 Bogarden Hellkite
4 Buried Alive
2 Living Death
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
20 Swamp
Something like that. It was a while back while Entomb was banned. Living Death wasn't bad.. until the format got much faster. The explosiveness of Dark Ritual was beautiful in this deck because you could usually do something cool with it turn 1. Sometimes Rit, Duress, Hymn, sometimes Buried Alive, sometimes, a fast Living Death, etc. It wasn't the best list, but it was certainly playable back in the day (though not by today's standards).
I never played with a Dragon build. The guy at my local event did. Kilnmouth is good because its usually an 8/8 flying that says tap deal 3 damage to target creature or player. Sometimes its even an 11/11 flying. It was good because it ended the game quickly (though sometimes its tap ability was also relevant). The deck played that as a fat swinger and Bogarden Hellkites to clear the board against aggro. The only drawback of playing such a deck is that you need to run a lot of dragons, otherwise Kilnmouth isn't going to be amplified. If it were played today, a list might also include Knollspine Dragon (refilling your hand is nice). Its certainly an aggressive build (likely good against aggro and combo) but its fatties are significantly weaker against removal.
My favorite build is the one I currently play (UBg) with MD stifles. Its not bad but it needs a few updates. Its a fairly conventional list.
While I understand that Brainstorm and Ponder don't always find you what you need, they make up for that by usually finding you gas, and often doing more. Compare Animate Dead to the Brainstorm that draws you into Force, Reanimate, and Daze.
The real reason I think the decision is easy is that, in this case, the difference between the first-rate combo cards (Entomb, Reanimate, and Exhume) and the second-rate combo cards (Buried Alive and Animate Dead) is really pretty big. I would always rather have to Ponder for an Exhume than lose my (5/6) Sphinx to a Qasali Pridemage, and there are lots of situations in which having to settle for a three-mana, sorcery-speed Entomb is worse than leaning on Brainstorm.
I think you'll be tempted to agree once you've tested the deck as you outlined above, but I should also mention that Force of Will is obviously amazing for the deck, as well. Unmask isn't far off that mark, though.
Yeah, that would be amazing. But Brainstorm is far more likely to NOT draw you the Reanimate (or Bury) effect that you are looking for to combo off. Just playing a lot more Bury and Reanimate effects really helps you make better decision on when to mulligan, and what card to tutor/Beseech for.
Valcrix, that looks interesting. I tried something like that way back when.
Entomb though seriously made the deck sooo much better.
Especially now that you have Beseech to tutor it or Buried Alive up when you need it.
Playing Entomb + Buried + Beseech means that you no longer have to play chaff cards like Putrid Imp.
And you no longer have to waste so many deck slots to big creatures.
And you end up with something far more explosive than that old list.
Hymn isn't very good in the deck as well. Unmask, Duress, Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize are all far better in Reanimator.
Agreed, its an outdated list, but you asked for it. :P
I bought Entombs for the deck not knowing it was banned. As it turns out it was a great investment (about $6 for a playset). :D
A Dragon list is probably less viable then lists with Iona but its certainly a decent option for budget players in mono-black, though your list is likely even more budget (minus thoughtseize).
Hymn is actually really underplayed in Mono-B Reanimator, especially in builds with Dark Ritual. Duress/Thoughtseize + Hymn is crippling even in todays metagame.
Hymn is very underplayed in black aggro decks and black control decks.
But it does NOT belong in Reanimator decks. Reanimator decks typically don't care about 95% of the cards your opponents play. They care about very very specific and narrow cards. They care about Force of Will, Edict effects, Chalice of the Void/Counterbalance (if it doesn't have access to Disk) and possibly Path/StP if the creature that they are planning to Reanimate is Sphinx.
In addition, Reanimator decks really like to know what cards your opponents are playing. When I Thoughtseize or Unmask or Cabal Therapy naming Force of Will and see that my opponent is holding both Daze and FoW in hand. I get rid of the FoW and know to always play around the Daze for my key spells. If I know they don't have a Daze, I can feel free to not leave a mana open to play around it. Likewise, when I know that my opponent is holding a Tormod's Crypt or Bajuka Bog, I know to be sure to both bury and Reanimate the creature on the very same turn.
*cough* pro green *cough*
His example is implying that the Sphinx is in play because of an Animate Dead.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ith-Reanimator is about doing well with a mono-B build of reanimator.
The major problem with Mono-B is that you can die to topdecks. You dump a creature into your yard, say go, they topdeck a crypt, there goes your creature. Even with Dark Ritual, you're having to cast three-mana spells (Beseech, Buried Alive), where the U/B build rarely casts anything with CMC over two.
You're reliant on drawing or using a CMC 3 tutor for your sideboard pieces, which is also terrible. Hate for reanimator is at an all-time high (grave hate in general), the ability to use Mystical Tutor, Ponder, and Brainstorm to find bounce/counter makes the deck more resilient.
-T
The fact that U/B reanimator has Force of Will makes it a tough matchup for other combo decks. I know I'm a lot more scared of U/B reanimator than MonoB Reanimator.
And if your question is really, "Is it a better performer?" definitely not. U/B Reanimator has a GP win and like a half-dozen top 8s and I don't think I've seen MonoB Reanimator do anything.
*cough*5/6 sphinx=Animate dead*cough.
As Forbidian said, there is no showings of mono b as opposed to a bunch with b/u. I even top 8'd the 1st Legacy PE on MTGO with it and wouldnt dream of trying to pilot it w/o FoW/Daze/Bstorm/Tutor.
It may be better in a pseudo-mirror matchup, but that is where it ends. B/U also has Show and Tell.... many matches come down to it, where the opponent has a Relic/Crypt or Leyline and animator just taps 2U to blank the whole board full of hate.
Last edited by menace13; 04-24-2010 at 12:31 AM. Reason: was quite glib.
Everything you can do with mono-black Reanimator, you can do with U/B Reanimator. Except you get to do it with Brainstorm, Force, Mystical Tutor, and other blue cards.
U/B is just better. Even if you only splash for Brainstorm, it is better. You literally lose nothing in the process because fetchlands are so good at making the mana base work.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
Curious question to someone who has played this mono-B version a lot. I used to play a mono-B reanimator during Mirage and I used to use Anvil of Bogardan to keep the cards coming. Do you think it actually has a place now or is it just too slow? I have not played any of these newer versions so I have no clue as to whether or not it's a viable choice.
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