I have to agree with OP, the deck looks really tight and a lot of these suggestions just don't make any sense at all.
My only critique is that Goblin Guide and Wasteland are not very synergistic. Really I think you could drop the wastelands altogether since you aren't going for control and they aren't part of a larger disruption suite. If you aren't including them in your land count then you could put in the Paths to deal with troublesome blockers, or maybe even Simian Spirit Guide to add some speed.
Really though you'll just have to do some testing and see how many times Guide negates your wasteland, and how many times Wasteland would have been better as something else.
Thanks, this I'll concede, I've noticed the issue. The thing is, I'd much rather keep Wasteland in the deck than Goblin Guide. I think Wasteland is the better Magic card, and I'm always unlucky with Guide flips. Any ideas of what could replace him? Weathered Wayfarer? Grim Lavamancer?Originally Posted by EssKay451990
Simian Spirit Guide is also interesting. Enabling turn 1 Geopedes and Kiln Fiends is very good. I originally thought about using Chrome Mox, but the card disadvantage turned me off. Spirit Guide is a one shot thing, but it's often exactly what you need. I'll give it a shot.
I'd rather keep the Guides in, cut some removal for 2-3 Figure of Destiny or Grim Lavamancer, the former giving you some ability to sit back with a critter that doesn't require as much commitment as Student of Warfare that also pulls your mana away from your removal and the latter useful for when your opponents start to arc larger than your removal (rather than sacrificing slots for Swords/Path). I'd go with 2-3 Lavamancer in addition to the creature base. Guide and Wasteland are anti-synergistic, but Wasteland is just too useful for ruining their first plan and making them play more cautiously in subsequent games while Guide... think of it this way... every fetchland they grab is still burn.
Siding Proclamation of Rebirth a bad idea against Firespout/Pyroclasm?
I'd also give Double Cleave a look. It's risky and isn't removal, but worth +4-8 damage for 2 mana in a lot of instances (18 total with Kiln Fiend + Reckless Charge + Double Cleave).
Here's my list of possible replacements:
Keldon Marauders
Spark Elemental
Grim Lavamancer
Figure of Destiny
Marauders doesn't fit the 1-drop slot, but would be fairly bonkers with Reckless Charge. Other than that, each has benefits and drawbacks. Seriously test without the Wastelands though, I think you'll find they're a dead draw a lot more often than you would think, and without more disruption options, most decks will recover pretty quickly.
Also I hate to jump on the bandwagon, but you may want to consider something like -2 fetch, +2 mountain. In a control-heavy meta, Stifle could pose big problems for you if two out of every three of your lands is a viable target. You could power through it, but by that point they'll probably have better board position.
Decklist looks pretty good to me, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why plated geopede isnt Jotun Grunt. Grunt is 1. harder to burn 2. Races goyf 3. Eats opposing graveyards which helps against, Loam, Tombstalker, Grim lavamancer, Lands, igg, dredge and I'm sure lots of other random junk. 4. Actually blocks favorably if you can't give him haste. and 5. Has more synergy with the wastelands.
I don't really like goblin guide in the sea of decks with blue. I would replace them with 3 Figure of Destiny and 1 Rift bolt both of which serve to help the blue matchups.
If you play Geopede turn two, you can expect it to stick around for a bit. The same claim cannot be made for Grunt.
That isn't always true. Geopede dies to everything under the sun including red sweepers grim lavamancers lava dart and the such. Getting cards into the graveyard with so much burn and all the catnips running around isnt very difficult. I honestly believe grunt is the more powerfull card of the two and his utility does win games.
Grunt... is too situational of a card. When you want to play it turn 2, you might with a burn and a fetch... and get one swing out of it. For it to survive a subsequent swing with this deck, the next turn, you're tossing 4 cards, meaning on top of that burn and fetch, you have to fetch 2 more times and cast two more burn definitely in the next turn, and not necessarily a creature drop just to pay your upkeep, pigeonholing your strategy unless you're running against a deck that feeds him for you. So for Grunt to be worth it, you're relying on drawing 1/4 of your fetches in 9-10 cards. What makes Grunt much better than... Keldon Marauders, then, which is more potential 2 poke damage + 3 swing? This deck isn't threshold. And this also limits you to one Grunt in play when you can play Geopedes at abandon if you want to. I'd rather use the Geopede and play a bit more conservatively if I suspect the Spout or Pyroclasm.
Without testing this deck and after reading your explanations and comments I will suggest why not StP? Does the life gain slow your clock just a turn or so? I would think that absolutely clearing the path for a lynx or such would be primo. Also, I don't like Goblin Guide. If Spark Elemental on T1 is akin to bolting on T1 then isn't Goblin Guide like shocking T1? Seems weak sauce to me. Grim Lavamancer may better fit this spot. I know he is more reactive but he finishes and you will have a full GY due to the amount of fetches and burn you run.
I've had a boros deck together now for what seems like ages. So I maybe holding onto Jotun Grunt irrationally but honestly its been mvp in a whole lot of match ups over the years. You only need 12 cards between both you and your opponents graveyard for 3 swings and lets face it if the game goes past where hes swung 3 times and hasn't ended things aren't looking good for you. Grunt acts as disruption in quite a few match ups and shouldn't be so easily dismissed. Grunt will still be a 4/4 if a hymn takes your land drop or during land light hands. And, is almost indefinitely better in the mirror match (all aggro matches in fact) since he can block and kill just about anything that doesn't fly and isn't goyf the turn he comes into play giving the potential for card advantage and an overall larger life swing. (blocking prevents damage which last I checked is better than taking it on the face) Besides you can always play instant burn in response to his upkeep trigger if you need to get more cards in graveyard. Sorry If this isn't 100% coherent I'm really tired atm.
Now the ability to play multiples and have them stick around awhile is a valid point so it may be optimal to play 3 Grunts and 1 Geopede.
Off the topic of grunt: Those of you who have been playing a deck with 10-14 fetchlands do you ever find yourself having trouble with opposing aggro and decks playing burn. Even with Steppe Lynx making fetches into damage the life swing is only +1 (since you are taking one from the fetch you may otherwise not play without landfall dorks). Granted swinging with a 4/5 is awesome and all but is it enough to justify so many fatches. And, one last question have you ever found your landfall guys MIA or in your graveyard and losing to your own mana base?
Searing Blaze... now that's some cool tech. I think 3's a little heavy though, since it's still dependant on making a land drop that turn to be good. I just tested 2 in my super fast sligh and was pleased. How's 3 been for you troop?
Oh, and why'd you lose the green splash? Wild Nacatl just not worth the weaker manabase? I really think that running 8 2cc creatures really hurts your speed (aggression), and dropping the Geopedes for Nacatl's would improve that. Has running too heavy in the 2cc creature slot been an issue for you?
I'd post my decklist as a food for thought but it doesn't really fit in here since it's 3c Sligh.
Just typed up a big reply, got it deleted :-/. In short, Wild Nacatl is the best card in Green, but I got tempted into running Pridemage and Goyf, which slowed the deck down alot. If you want to post your 3c list, that'd be cool. I worked on Naya Sligh for awhile, and the manabase is kindov a headache. You need alot of Fetches for Lynx, you need to be able to support White and Green for one drops, while having all Red lands to cast your burn spells. I don't really know. I like the 4 Plateau for easy turn 1 Steppe Lynxes and preservation of Sac Lands.
Searing Blaze is very nice. I don't know if 3 is right, or 2. Definitely not 4. I usually cast it Sorcery speed, so having landfall isn't a challenge.
I don't like Jotun Grunt that much. Maybe as a SB card, but he's unreliable, and kinda slow. You can't play him as a 2 drop and expect him to live. Plated Geopede and Kiln Fiend both attack for more damage, and I also don't feel like playing more than 8 2 drops. He doesn't last more than a couple turns, and I'd rather play something I know is gonna stick around. It's a fine card tho.
Plated Geopede has been really good. He makes Reckless Charge better, and is more often than not a 5/5 First Strike. I've grown pretty fond of this insect. My recent experiments have been -4 Wasteland +2 Fetchland +2 Mountain. I'm not sure if I like it better. I'm having trouble saying goodbye to Wasteland.
I think Wastelands are needed in an aggresive landfall deck such as this, they both trigger the mechanic and keep your opponent and you in the gamestage where this deck's real strength is. A single splashed color definately seems better than two, in my opinion. In a version with Wasteland I'm not overly sold on Goblin Guide and would think Grim Lavamancer would be a better substitute as it feeds off your landfilled graveyard and clears the board of small creatures that are soaking up your beefy Lynx, Geopede and Killing Fiends - it also happens to be a much bigger threat against controlish decks.
Really? I'm still loving it as a 4-of, granted that's in the goyf-sligh version. It's just so brutal in every match-up with creatures and I'd think the Geopede would make it even better?Searing Blaze is very nice. I don't know if 3 is right, or 2. Definitely not 4. I usually cast it Sorcery speed, so having landfall isn't a challenge.
I'm kinda irked about Reckless Charge, but if it works. It works, I suppose.
How has your testing been compared vs. the goyf-fiend sligh?
Thank you for reassuring me on the Wastelands. I think that's a big strength of the 2 color list, because it really CAN support Wasteland. I've begun testing -4 Goblin Guide, +3 Grim Lavamancer, + 1 Sac-Land. You can never have enough of those! At first I was hesitant to play him, because when it comes to the Goldfish he doesn't contribute. But in actual matchups, there's nothing like him. Recycling all those cards in the graveyard is pretty amazing. Now there's not one disynergy!
I think this and the Goyfsligh list have some very similar matchups. I'm not sure which deck is better. That deck abuses Kiln fiend a bit harder, but this deck is a hair faster, and abuses Reckless Charge. Tarmogoyf is great, but the thing is, we have Plated Geopede. Against everything but decks with burn spells, Plated Geopede is just as good. It's also pretty good against opposing Tarmogoyfs. All I'm saying, is this deck doesn't lose a whole lot by not playing Green. Although, I'd really like to SB Krosan Grip.
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [A] Plateau
2 [R] Taiga
2 [RAV] Mountain (2)
// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [ZEN] Burst Lightning
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
2 [WWK] Searing Blaze
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [VI] Fireblast
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
Basically, it's modified to be as fast as possible.
Yeah, pretty similar to the list I was running. I don't know if Green is worth playing if all it brings you is Wild Nacatl. Steppe Lynx is at its very best turn 1. When you run only 2 intial white sources of mana, you're almost required to use a Fetchland to get Plateau. Over time you'll start to notice, that often leaves you with 0 and 1 fetches left far too often. I run 5 sources of white, so casting turn 1 Steppe Lynx without using a Fetchland is more common. I'm also not a fan of Magma Jet or Incinerate. Magma Jet just doesn't kill enough anymore, and I was never satisfied with it during my testing. Same thing with Incinerate. I don't know about Burst Lightning.
I think you would be wise to play some number of Kiln Fiend too, at least try it. He may not make the deck faster, but he also makes winning alot easier. Burn is like a 7 card combo deck. Kiln Fiend does alot for just 1 spell, making all your other spells more powerful in a sense. I think your deck is very strong though, and it looks really consistent with the 12 1 drops.
Boros Landfall
-15 Creatures-
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Plated Geopede
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Grim Lavamancer
-22 Spells-
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Rift Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
3 Reckless Charge
2 Fireblast
-23 Lands-
4 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB:
3 Krosan Grip (Countertop)
1 Duerger Hedge-Mage(Countertop, BantSur)
1 Cleanfall (Countertop, Enchantress?)
4 Orim's Chant (Storm)
1 Silence (Storm)
2 Vexing Shusher (Countertop)
3 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Reanimator)
Note the singleton Taiga main. It was sortov a Eureka moment. I had this extra slot after I cut the 4 Goblin Guides, because I knew I only wanted to play 3 Grim Lavamancer. I wanted to play another land, because there was only 18 "real" lands before Wasteland. I was thinking about playing another Sac-land, then thought about comments earlier saying I should play more than 6 permanent lands, and thought about a basic Mountain. But what's better than mountains? Taiga! Hellooo Krosan Grip! :P
I can't wait to play this in a tournament.
Last edited by troopatroop; 05-02-2010 at 03:00 PM.
Have you actually tested this against real people? because I decided I would at least try your list to make sure that it works better in real life. I proxied it up and played against some of the meta decks in this area. The only time I won, it was against my friends budget elf deck and I won because mono green doesn't have spot removal and plated geopede did very well there....sooo it loses to just about everything. I did not play the sideboard so unless the sideboard really helps you get those g2+g3 wins. with 15 creatures I would end up seeing maybe 2 a game, and they would not stick around for long, or they would be out sized by an opposing tarmogoyf. playing around daze for this deck is very counterproductive as a daze will force you to crack your fetch.. I don't wanna be condescending but if you have tested this, how skilled are your opponents/opponents decks.
I actually played a bunch of matches today with it, 7 in total, and didn't lose one of them. I lost alot of game 1's, usually on the draw, and was mulliganing to 6 a fair bit, but the deck was very strong for me. Grim Lavamancer did his fair share of pwn. I'll admit, the decks weren't very good, some weren't even Legacy, but I didn't lose one.
1st match: Standard Boros Bushwacker. Game 1 he has a perfect Path to stop Geo from hitting for 8. Spot removal for all my guys, and a Ranger of Eos to gas up and Kill me. Games 2 and 3 I outclass his threats with my removal, and he dies to Kiln Fiends eventually. This is a Standard deck, so I obviously needed to win.
2nd match: Cascade Living death. Game 1 I'm not fast enough. I get him to 1 life before he goes crazy, and I make the mistake of using Fireblast too early pumping Kiln Fiend. I needed to draw a red source, couldn't do it. Game 2 I hit him for 11 turn 2 with Steppe Lynxes and killed him the next turn. Game 3 was pretty similar, but involved a massive Kiln Fiend swing that he didn't see coming.
3rd match: Legacy Soldiers. Game 1 he's got removal for all 3 of my Plated Geopedes. I try playing the long game with Grim Lavamancer, but he has lords in Field Marshal and Daru Warchief so I lose. Game 2 I pull out from the depths of defeat. I have nothing but lands in my hand for awhile, but I'm able to remove his stuff 1 by 1. Eventually I draw a Geopede, and bash in there for alot with Reckless Charge. I saved some fetches in my hand and that was GG. Game 3 he didn't have a chance. Turn 1 Lynx, Turn 2 Searing Blaze, Turn 3 Geopede--> Reckless Charge.
He just ran out of removal every game that I won. Burn spells were very good.
4th match: Standard Allies. Yeah, I went way too fast for him. 3-0 easily. No contest.
5th match: Naya Zoo. I go turn 1 plateau lynx. He plays turn 1 Taiga Nacatl. I waste his land, bolt his nacatl and swing. Next turn I drop a geopede, and procede to burn out everything in my way. His thoctar catches a Fireblast, and my geopede gets bolted, but Kiln Fiend comes in to finish the job. Game 2 is just a blowout. Turn 1 Lavamancer, turn 2 hasted Steppe Lynx catches him offguard. He tries playing defense, where he probably should have been attacking, and I just finish him off with burn spells. Lightning Helix was good, as you'd expect.
6th match: U/G Madness. My threats are too good for his, and I throw bolts at his Wild Mongrels. I take games 1 and 2, the deck was just running very smoothly, and he didn't play any removal outside of Bounce. Didn't give him time to set up his stuff.
7th match: Legacy Monoblack Control. I take game 1 on the play by turn 3. He taps out turn 2 to play Nantuko Shade. I play a Lynx, Bolt his Guy, Fetchland, Reckless Charge for 11. He edicts me, but Lynx swings at him once and I burn him out. Game 2 I get him to two life with many lands in play, but he stabalizes with a Korlash in play. I have 4 turns to draw burn, but I drew lands. Game 3 was very close, but he used his edicts at bad times, letting me throw my Geopedes and Steppe Lynxes away after I was out of lands. Eventually I get a Kiln Fiend to stick, and he attacks for 7 on top of double burn for GG.
So all in all, that's 15-4 in games, 7-0 in matches. Granted, these aren't tier 1 Legacy decks, but I was happy to have won. It sounds like you didn't play with much conviction. Do you think you made any mistakes? I see this deck as an Aggro deck that has a legitimate chance to steal wins against combo decks that don't know yet what it's doing. Reckless Charge was also amazing. It was always involved in winning me games, and I flashed it back multiple times! All in all, it was a good showing.
I had way too much issues with dealing with a tarmogoyf. I see this deck having a ton of issues against the many bant variants. They pack dazes which either mess with your fetches or make you play a turn slower, both plans are not very promising. Every time I got to cast reckless charge the opponent had a spot removal ready. I assumed that I would draw into another creature so that the hastey attack would come at much greater of a surprise. I may have made a few play mistakes, but the mistakes would not have magically turned the match around. They would have included holding back a turn to have mana to pay for daze (effectively playing a turn slower.)...so random but I tested a game just now and managed to win against DDAnt. I am guessing that it was an unskilled pilot as it was on mws...but I still won.
Bant decks have things we worry about, for sure. Counterbalance, Rhox War Monk, Tarmogoyf, etc. Bant decks also have things that we have many answers too. I think the matchup is probably close to 50/50. We have Wastelands and Bolts to wreck their mana development. We play burn spells to accompany our creatures, which are all fairly big. We have alot of threat density, and great SB options. We care about alot of their cards, but they care about ours too. Not all their guys are huge. Qasali Pridemage and Noble Hierarch eat it to everything we play. We are the faster deck. They play answers, but usually only 4 STP for removal. It doesn't seem overwhelmingly bad, is all I'm saying.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote