Lately I've been thinking about ways to psyche out the opponent before we actually begin playing. I usually play combo but at big tournaments I usually take a glass house like Pact SI (and I'm 2 for 2 at topping 8 at larger tournaments). A few times during my years playing magic, I've put myself in a good position just by being a little tricky before the match actually begins. For example, during the last tournament I brought a clear case full of extra cards with me and kept a Hypnotic Spectre on the top. One guy actually called me out on it and said I probably shouldn't reveal what I'm playing by keeping my extra cards out in the open (though I was actually playing combo).
In that same tournament, I accidentally dropped Dryad Arbor and my opponent thought I was playing NO bant (cause they run it as a fetchable outlet for Natural Order).
Another time (unrelated to the last tournament), I 'dropped' a Burning Wish and a Bayou while Shuffling. My opponent was convinced I was playing Aggro Loam and kept what he called 'a decent hand against me'. Apparently, he mulliganed a hand with Chalice and he was playing first.
My question is, how much do you think this affects YOU? If your opponent accidentally drops something while shuffling, will you change your initial strategy? And how?
My goal is to discover which combinations of cards are worth 'dropping' to make my opponent think I'm playing something else. In doing so, I might force a mulligan or the wrong play. Especially when playing something like combo (I play Pact SI) where the game will be decided in the first couple turns, might it even be worth cutting one of my open slots in the MD for something to throw my opponent off completely?
Also, are there any other strategies I might engage in? Example: Start a conversation about the last match, and explain that 'I didn't have the FoW for his Lackey' or something.
Discuss.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
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Expect me or die. I play SI.
On last Extended PTQ season, I was playing Zoo with few Thopter tokens turned up on my deckbox. I won 2 first games that I shouldn't because that.
Because that, I aways ignore any "outside" information (Except obvious things, like a Golgari Grave-Troll or something)
It tends to work better at larger tournaments - at more local ones people tend to know your deck.
However, I did play a game vs. ANT that went like this: "Well, this is pretty easy, because I know you don't have Forces." Me: "Nope, my friend just lent to me." "Really?"
He proceeded to wait a turn before Duressing me, and took my Daze. He went to combo out, and with that extra blue mana I got to say: Brainstorm, say hi to my other Daze.
Ah tokens. Thats a pretty good idea. I could put some Zombie tokens in my deck box and pretend I'm playing Dredge.
Agreed. It works much better at the larger tournaments. Then again everyone knows me as the Storm guy so the one time I played DnT, I fucked shit up with Plains, go. :P
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Haha, alright, everyone here knows I either bring Storm or Dredge. Shit was cash when I made that play: Mountain, Lackey, go.Originally Posted by Vacrix
On topic: Nothing beats the confusion caused by Zombie tokens, I agree. Many people just go batshit and feel very nervous because they think they're playing Dredge.
These kinds of tactics might be good, but i believe that you should focus more on yore game instead of trying to figure out ways to mind game your opponent. More rewards from that in the long run.
I'm one of the guys who try to use outside info (like tokens etc). Sometimes Iv had people pulling this stunt against me, but its most of the time rather easy to understand what the opponent is doing, slightly different tone of voice, difference in confidence etc.
All of this seems like a waste of time. Numerous pro players have suggested that you are more likely to succeed if you concentrate on your technical play, rather than spending your mental resources on non-gameplay elements of a match. In my personal opinion, if you can't just play the game for the fun of playing the game, then you should try poker (where it is an accepted practice to use misinformation to fool opponents). In the case of Magic, you're just forfeiting your reputation as a person. There was a guy at the last tourney I went to who was using a clear deck box with an Ill-Gotten Gains on top. He succeeded in convincing me he was playing a Storm deck, so I took two mulligans to find a Stifle and a counter. He turned out to be playing Dredge. I called a judge, and he was given a loss for having cards in his deck box that could be swapped illegally. My point is not to accuse you of cheating (because this isn't, to the best of my knowledge), but to point out that just because this isn't illegal doesn't mean it isn't amoral. Furthermore, I won our only game because I Cursecatcher'd his Dread Return with 3 Bridges in the grave because he didn't know the RFG clause.
"Stifle your Standstill?"
I agree that this is a real problem. Judges are not exactly fond of such tactics and mind tricks, and dropping cards from a deck that should not have those cards can get you into hot water. This is especially true in larger tournaments (which is where people agree that mind tricks work the best).
That said, there are a certain type of mind trick that I find both highly effective and completely outside of a judge's notice. Indeed, this sort of mind trick uses the judge (if necessary) to beat your opponent. These are "In-Game" tactics that happen during actual gameplay. Of those "in-game" tactics, my absolute favorite are unquestionably those that deal with the upkeep. Judges are serious sticklers about remembering what triggers during upkeeps, and they have very little pity for a player who forgets to deal with optional triggers. This is true of all phases, but happens most frequently during the upkeep (and Draw step, if you are playing Dredge).
In general, Magic guerillas should be highly abusive of ALL optional triggers. Here are some examples of these tactics in action:
1. The Tabernacle Ploy
I have a Magus of the Tabernacle out and my opponent is playing Zoo with 4 creatures in play. The Zoo player has 4 mana available to pay for all of his dudes and I know I'm not going to survive another mass swing. At the end of my turn, I tell the player "pause during your upkeep." My opponent untaps and pauses as per my request. The Magus triggers are not controlled by me, so I have no obligation to remind my opponent that those are sitting dangerously on the stack while I ponder what to do. I am pretending to think about whether to tap lands with Rishadan Port or Wasteland one of his non-basics. Obviously, this will have no impact on his ability to pay for his dudes. While I pretend to fiddle with my lands and engage in calculations for the next fifteen seconds, my opponent slowly forgets his Magus triggers. After those 15 or so seconds have elapsed, I say, "Nevermind, go ahead." Most players invariably proceed to the Draw Step and lose their creatures.
If a judge is called over, you have a bulletproof story ("I was debating on whether to tap his lands/destroy them") and a rock solid rules position (the Zoo player forgot his triggers and his creatures are definitely screwed).
2. Counterbalance Confusion
I'm playing Reanimator against CounterTop, and my opponent has an active lock out. I know that I'm pretty much fucked unless I can resolve an Exhume, and I'm not going to try and stick around waiting for a Reanimate to come so I can play one and then the other; he might have a FoW by that time. I take my chances with the Exhume. Before he can stack triggers (Counterbalance first, then a Top activation/Brainstorm), I tell him "I'm not passing priority yet." I then pause for about twenty seconds to think about something. I then call a judge over and use my player rights to ask him a discrete question off to the side (the question itself doesn't matter, so long as it's pertinent to the game). I come back, apologize to my opponent, think a little more, and then I declare that "I am pooling three mana". This series of unusual actions results in his having a puzzled look on his face, but he nonetheless proceeds to reveal the top card (CMC 1), attempt to FoW, and then meets up with my own FoW. Exhume resolves and I win. Later he realizes he forget to activate Top, and as we see right after he concedes, he would have hit a Counterbalance.
By interrupting the normal train of triggers by NOT passing priority and then summoning a judge to have a secret conversation with, I disrupted my opponent's normal game play. So long as you have a legitimate question for the judge and you can prove that you were actually thinking about some in-game situation, your opponent cannot call you out for stalling, and cannot call you out for disrupting his gameplay.
These are two examples of in-game tactics that work quite well in swinging matches back in your favor. Including cards in your deck can be shady; if I was in a large tournament and I knew my opponent was playing Tempo Thresh, and I recalled that he had dropped Bayou/Infernal Tutor from his deck during shuffling, I would absolutely call a judge over on the grounds of potential card swapping and deck rigging. In-game tactics, instead of working against judges, USE judges to your advantage.
Moral? Not exactly. Effective? Yes.
-ktkenshinx-
Those two ideas are at least stalling. They're probably downright cheating, and they're certainly unsporting conduct.
Leave that kind of strategy at home, or stay home yourself.
InfoNinjas
Know what you should do instead? Pass priority and watch his creatures die. With the triggers already on the stack and him pausing during his upkeep while waiting for you to do something is a clear indication that he passed priority to you. I guess I would (almost) never try to pull such a trick and I HIGHLY doubt this would work against any kind of above-average player.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
If you have 'extra cards' with your deck/board in a box, those cards are considered to be part of your sideboard. If they're not with your deck but you imply they're part of your sideboard, they're considered to be part of your sideboard. Deck/Decklist Mismatch = Game Loss.
I hope the Arbor was actually in your deck.
Yep. See above.
Don't lie to a judge, about anything. That's a DQ. Wanting to get a DQ when you were otherwise not doing anything illegal seems silly.
Do not waste judges' time. Do not try to involve judges in bluffs. The first time, you will be told politely not to do that. The second time, it will be a Game Loss for Unsporting Conduct. And again, do not lie to judges.By interrupting the normal train of triggers by NOT passing priority and then summoning a judge to have a secret conversation with, I disrupted my opponent's normal game play. So long as you have a legitimate question for the judge and you can prove that you were actually thinking about some in-game situation, your opponent cannot call you out for stalling, and cannot call you out for disrupting his gameplay.
Stalling is Cheating by trying to take advantage of the time limit, which those are not. Cheating is one of four things, none of which those are. They're not Unsporting Conduct either, save where they try to involve judges.
If you pass priority, the top item of the stack will resolve - not everything on the stack.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Sorry, I meant "unsporting conduct," not "Unsporting Conduct." I mean it's a not a sporting thing to do, it's rude, and I'd probably get annoyed and call a judge.
Isn't wasting both players time to try and get the opponent to screw something up stalling? He's delaying the game to try and get an advantage.
InfoNinjas
I'd stick to just "unsporting" (leave off the conduct) to help avoid confusion. Or maybe even better "not sporting".
Stalling is specifically trying to take advantage of the time limit. If the (potential) advantage you gain is not related to the time limit, it's not Stalling.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I am not lying to judges at all. I was debating on what to do during my opponent's upkeep; tap lands so he can't use them in his main phase, or destroy lands for the same effect. Lying to a judge is clearly a bad idea, and I would never do that or approve of it.
I am merely asking the judge a question about how passing priority and trigger stacking works in a complicated situation. This is a rules clarification, not a lie or a bluff.Do not waste judges' time. Do not try to involve judges in bluffs. The first time, you will be told politely not to do that. The second time, it will be a Game Loss for Unsporting Conduct. And again, do not lie to judges.
I am spending a few seconds to try and figure out my next move (destroy a land? tap a land? stack triggers? pass priority? etc.) Matches are "stalled" for much longer over debating about what to do in an attack phase, how to execute a game winning play, etc. My delaying the game in the Tabernacle/CounterTop scenario is no different than delaying the game when considering an important strategic move. The outcome just happens to impact the forgetful opponent.
As to the issue of unsporting, you really can't post in a thread like this and say "That tactic is bad because it's unsporting." You certainly can object to the whole idea of so-called mind tricks and "guerilla tactics" on that ground, but that's a separate debate.
-ktkenshinx-
No, you are lying. You are not pondering over how to tap/destroy lands. You are trying to make your opponent forget about his triggers.
How can pretending not to know something you do actually know not be a bluff?
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
If a judge asked you directly why you did that, telling him a "bulletproof story" is lying to him. If he figures out you're lying, you're headed for Cheating - Fraud. You can admit you were trying to misdirect your opponent - that's not illegal. If you really don't want your opponent to know you misdirected him (why?), you could take the judge aside and answer.
Calling a judge when you don't have a legitimate question is wasting the judge's time. Attempting to misdirect your opponent by using a judge is involving a judge in a bluff.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
reading ktkenshinx post one thing spring to mind.
Whenever your opponent have a strange behavior, stop for a moment and try to figure out why. in 9 times out of 10 you'll come to the conclusion that you are probably winning and he need to do something drastic in order to win.
The mindgame that have made me lose most games are the nice guys mind game.
A nice guy that could just as likely been your buddy. You chat about everything and anything and I lose focus on my game. Thats a good mind game that will make you friends after the game. Win - Win.
Quoted for truth. I've lost once to a bad guy mind game - and learned my leason-, but multiple times to the nice guy (which probably often times isn't a mindgame but rather just how he is, heh - or at least that's what I tell myself). :-)
Well, as far as my experience goes all the rely good players I'v faced or seen in action have been "nice guys" in one form or the other. So I guess there's some truth in it.
Yeah, its good if you have that experience earlie. I used to fall for that stuff once, never again, still I'm kinda thankful it happened.
Forgetting triggers is kind of a newbie problem. When you get better you have to spend less time thinking about triggers, you just remember them without even trying. I think this has something to do that the more you play the more you realize there is something going on in the upkeep. When I was playing casually the Upkeep was practically nonexistent and even after I got into competetive play it was more of a nuisance than an actual phase. Once you leave that mindset behind you do not skip the triggers but just pause before them, when your opponent says go you just pay for your stuff.
And srsly, if your opponent just spent 20 secs to figure out what to do anyone with a brain will at least wonder what he was trying to accomplish.
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