Moss I'm not sure if you're still working on this deck, but in trying to find a home for Delver of Secrets in a Bant build, I've been thinking about this deck a lot. I almost feel like that card was the ideal fit for Delver. You naturally run ponder and Library, creature out at 3cc, and the exalted emphasis does really well for turn 1 fliers. The deck is also naturally spell heavy and unlike other bant builds, even for the time, took advantage of the wasteland manabase. Are you still working on this build, and if so, have you given Delver any thoughts?
I haven't played magic in quite a while actually. I needed a break, to enjoy other things in my life. As such I haven't tested delver at all. At first glance it looks good, even though I have said the card was bad before I believe. I was clearly wrong about that. CLEARLY :P
This is something ive been working on for a bit. I havent done any research on other bant decks. This is purely thoughts, list go. Ill test it out soon.
Ugw tempo
2x flooded strand
4x misty rainforest
3x tropical island
3x tundra
1x forest
1x island
1x karakas
4 wasteland
4x swords to plowshares
4x daze
4x force of will
3x spell pierce
4 brainstorm
3x ponder
4x delver of secrets
4x noble hierarch
4x quasali, pridemage
3x snapcaster mage
3x knight of the reliquary
1x vendillion clique
Sb:
3x path to exile
3x pithing needle
1x spell pierce
2x thalia
4x relic of progenitus
2x empty slots
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Did you ever test this build? I'm curious to know how Tempo Bant really plays out.
Thanks.
Yes. Delver is a great card but ultimately its not what you want to be doing if your trying to play the normal bant game.
The theory is good, but your running in too many directions. Im currently not testing the deck.
Thanks! I've been thinking the same. Might I ask what you are currently testing?
So heres an update on the model I posted last time. I did some testing and im fairly happy with the following.
/1x hydro/ Lands
2 [B] Tundra
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [B] Savannah
3 [B] Tropical Island
// Creatures
1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
2 [FNM] Qasali Pridemage
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
// Spells
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [JGC] Natural Order
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
SB: 3 [JU] Envelop
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
1x relic
1x snapcaster I am testing at the moment. I think theyll be fine
the board was
4x no
3x rip
4x envelop
just trying to open up space.
let me know what you think.
subbed out the blast for a rhox.
To you find it hard to tempo your opponents with swords/3 drops? Are the delvers worth cutting down on KotR? What do you gain over just playing a Bant midrange strategy? How has goyf been?
Matt Bevenour in real life
No. The lifegain off of swords doesn't directly negate your tempo.Do you find it hard to tempo your opponents with swords/3 drops?
As far as the three drops are concerned I don't understand. Did zoo both big and small versions run 3 drops?
Are the delvers worth cutting down on KotR?
Yes.
What do you gain over just playing a Bant midrange strategy?
The ability to win games against the current metagame of combo decks.
How has goyf been?
Hasn't really come up much. Scavenging ooze has been relivent when i've drawn him. I generally am tutoring for qasali or dryad arbor.
I'm playing around with different New Horizons builds at the moment, trying to see if Delver is good or not, and stumbled upon this thread.
Three suggestions/thoughts occur:
-The creature base is somewhat divided between aggro and midrange-oriented choices. Obviously Delver can steal games quickly and has potential late-game value in evading ground stalls, but there's a lot of slow guys being played here too. Specifically, running Ooze/Pridemage over the set of Goyfs and paying an extra mana for GSZ both seem slow and incongruous with Delver. Classic New Horizons lists were running 0 1-drop creatures with a monstrous set of 2- and 3-drops, which means Delver has the same awkward place in those lists. Getting them close to dead in a Bant list, then having them stabilize, is a lot less forgivable without the ability to topdeck bolt.
-Relatedly, the taxing counters get obviously worse as the game goes on and you have the full set. Do you often close games out fast enough that these hold that much value? The midrange Bant decks I've played in the past have often run 4 Force, 3-4 soft counters. Stifle extends the relevance of those cards (Again, no-1-drop NH doesn't suffer for holding up Stifle mana t1, and you do, but they do have a good chunk of relevant targets beyond fetches and even keeping them off 3-4-5 mana can keep the other soft counters relevant.)
-Rest in Peace/Relic cannot be the right grave hate cards when they lock your Goyf/Knight/Ooze in as Goat/Bear/Bear.
For comparison, I'm currently testing:
3 Trop
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
8 Fetch
4 Waste
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze (61st Card)
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Knight
2 Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 StP
2 EE
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Pierce
4 Stifle
Welcome. New horizon's and UGw Tempo are in fact different archetypes. This deck is a bit faster and is generally more aggressive then its more mid-range counter part.
The "fat" as you say is perfectly fine. Qasali is almost always a fine card, goyf is generally regarded as good fat to tutor for in a pinch, and scavenging ooze is a game changer. The biggest concern is the land base in my opinion.
Im currently playing the following
4x misty rainforest
1x flooded strand
3x tropical island
2x tundra
1x savannah
4x wasteland
1x dryad arbor
1x karakas
1x snow covered forest
1x snow covered island
The creature suite has played quite strong. Im really enjoying the 3x zenith.
Has anyone tested Centaur Healer by chance? I havent gotten a chance to test against the burn decks and I wonder what the results were. Without rhox it doesnt seem favorable.
Lol, stumbled over this thread when I have just decided to start testing the following:
BANT DELVER
Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Rhox War Monk /15
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith /27
Lands:
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath /18
Sideboard:
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
1 Daze
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Karakas /15
Zenith fits perfectly with the Delvers, since it's a sorcery that still gets dudes.
The full set of Ponders is also nice when you need to dig for certain things.
I decided to start testing this because I first was playing a Natural Order Bant list, but the Natural Order usually came too late to still steal the games for me. So I decided to switch to a faster semi-unfair wincon. Delver came to mind almost instantly. Downside is that we don't have the Progenitus anymore to help us win the control matchups. Fast Delver beats might still do the trick though.
Biggest difference with your attempts is Wasteland over Path to Exile. I had decided that removal is needed more, because Merfolk just kills us if we cannot get rid of the Islandwalk Lords. Also, since I play Zenith and no Knights of the Reliquary, Wasteland cannot be chained as easily, which makes it lose a lot of value. Not playing Wasteland also allows me to run basics, which are nice against TempoThresh.
While I agree with you on zenith playing awesomely with Delver, I disagree with the lack of wastelands on a very serious level. Your list only gets better with wastelands as dazes and spell pierces will stay active for longer. Allowing you to keep your one drop swinging for the longest time possible and allowing you to out "tempo" your opponent. For this reason I feel you need another strong one drop so I ask the question " why are you not playing nimble mongoose?" If you want to be aggressive than heirarch is not the way to go and you need to be playing the goose. Goose forces miracles to terminus to which you can play another goose and keep beating!
For a fast beat down plan I would recommend:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Quasali Pridemage
Which plays much better than Heirarch/Clique/War Monk. If you want to play Heirarch in a bant list you need to be casting knight of the reliquary and jace to end your games, not delver.
I made some changes that IMO make UGw tempo flow better, using your zenith idea to help delver flip more often. I bumped the instant/sorcery count to 30 for a 50/50 flip chance on average.
UGw Zenith Tempo
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
Sideboard
4 Submerge
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exiles
2 Tormod's Crypt
This is what I have been writing up in my head for a few weeks now btw, I might be a little addicted to GSZ at the moment.
Ps. I'm reading the opening post now. Sorry if I went against all if your card choices from the opening post. I can either shut up or we can discuss the delver list I made.
Cheers
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I like it...but I probably will take out the 3 gsz for qasali pridemages. Imagine turn 3 delvers attacking at 5 is just too sweet to pass up.
Also i dont like your sideboard at all. Whats the point of having a gaddock teeg? Tempo decks usually don't have any problems with combo decks. The weakness is usually against a control deck, which means i will up the krosan grips. As for rhox war monk. I guess its time to race against a burn deck instead of playing any life gain. Or maybe board in REB.
I don't necessarily hate the idea of making the archetype more like Rug currently, but if you do, I firmly feel like your losing value in other places where its not necessary.
I feel like clique is a necessity in the current metagame, be it for the random terminus stopper, turn eot rapage, or merely stopping show and tell from doing the dirty. The evasion is so sweet in this format.
as far as replacing noble hierarch, I think its a mistake but id like to understand why you think its bad. I'd also like to see if you are actually testing with it.
I love clique but I feel she is too mana intensive for the mana base and game plan I went for in my list. I feel she is right at home in a bant list with knight and karakas.
I will start testing tonight.
P.s. gaddock teeg is just another random terminus/verdict hoser against control. It doesn't hurt if you are already running GSZ. The war monk is for decks whee you will not be waste landing much and just need to race.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I've been working on Tempo Bant with/without Delvers/Hierarchs/GSZ for a bit, trying and thinking about different combinations. Some thoughts on the list lavafrog just posted, specifically on how it compares to RUG Delver and it's cohesiveness:
An obvious question you should have a good answer to is: Why aren't you playing Rug? When Maverick was a bigger chunk of the metagame, upgrading your removal to StP at the cost of reach made sense, but the last 6 months have made going RUG->Bant worse. There are far fewer creatures who need Swords, while you lose reach/blasts against combo and lots against UW (burn for Jace, Sulfuric Vortex, blasts). Without 5-7 burn spells, and with StP, you're slower than RUG. Games that they would barely close out, you will lose. Decks that almost-but-couldn't stabilize against them will get to against you. If there are reasons to play Bant over RUG (and I think there are), you have to come to terms with the fact that you lose RUG's advantages and are slightly slower.
On your specific list, I don't think 18 land are enough to support Ooze or GSZ. Many RUG lists are running 19 land for good reason, and you have a 5th 2-drop creature with 3 2-to-3-drop sorceries, which are open to be Pierced. An ideal GSZ for Goyf (or Teeg) lets you keep a 4th mana open to protect with your own Pierce. (Note that many RUG lists have dropped md Ooze with the drop in Maverick and lacking the mana to use him well).
I continue to think that taking a couple pages from the old New Horizons lists is a great place to start: upgrade some Goose to Knight and add a couple Horizon Canopy to smooth out the land without risking flooding. I'm currently testing 2 builds which use 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3 Knight, 2 Clique (22 mana) and 4 Delver, 3 Hierarch, 4 Goyf, 3 Knight (21 mana), respectively (no GSZ). In many matches, Hierarch is just okay - the mana acceleration doesn't mean much for long and exalted is only pretty good. In the Tempo mirror, she's a monster. You win Goyf wars and mana wars and they're stuck bolting your dork to have any chance while you're swords'ing their Goyf. Thus, I'm very split on the lists.
The two obvious downsides are the lack of Mongoose's shroud, particularly against UW control, and running around ~24 Delver flips instead of ~30. The Delver disparity is significant, but only comes up <10% of the time blind and very rarely when using a cantrip. Lacking Mongoose rarely matters against decks other than UW control (heavy removal match-ups are all hard, and worse for Bant than Rug bc burn, but they have the most targeted removal where he could really do damage), which is a tough match-up.
I have kicked around running ~2 GSZ (perhaps in the board?) with 1 Mongoose as a way of having access to more guys, being able to get Hexproof, recovering from Terminus better for the long-game, and getting Teeg. (Teeg is solid enough against miracles/Jace that I consider running a couple in the board without GSZ.)
I think the overall speed of the format makes playing goyf really not all that sweet without direct damage backing you up for the one time it actually connects. Cards like Delver are strictly outclassing goyf for a reason. I am highly against playing goyf at this stage in the game, especially with decks consistently ending games on two with show n tell and such. It just brings down your consistency and Im not a fan of filling up slots for bullshit.
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