Don't forget that stifle 'counters' O ring/Sower. I've been testing this deck a little bit, and while stifle hasn't done much, the only match it's been useful, it saved me twice: Once v. O ring, once v. waste on bridge.
I like this list. Looks pretty solid. Though I understand the justification behind See Beyond, I still think its a pretty weak slot. Sorcery speed card quality at 2cc doesn't seem that great. Doesn't Brainstorm do the same thing at 1cc? I think Ponder looks stronger in that slot, especially when you can just Ponder into Brainstorm, and then throw back Emakrul (and BS obviously allows you to throw back 2 cards) with a fetch.
Otherwise this looks like a really solid list. Great work Nightmare. (props on the name btw)
EDIT:
Also Spell Pierce > Duress post board?
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
What does this deck do to handle Jace, the Mind Sculptor? Jace can easily be brought down when you cast Show and Tell and simply bounce your Aeon right back into you hand.
Edit:
My bad. Ignore this post.
Last edited by DragoFireheart; 05-19-2010 at 02:23 PM. Reason: Jace doesn't get a free pass.
Posted on Nightmare's report too.
Pros of See Beyond
-Gets rid of chaff in hand
-Gets you two new cards
Cons of See Beyond
-Sorcery
-Costs two
-Digs two deep
-No CA
Pros of Ponder
-Costs one
-Digs three cards deep
Cons of Ponder
-Sorcery
-No CA
-Doesn't fix up cards in hand
I dunno, I guess they are equal, but Ponder seems to be better in a combo-oriented deck since it is faster and digs deeper.
Oh and what we didn't even realize: They can not put Jace into play with Show and Tell. If you want to know why, read the card.
Because the conversation is split a bit between this thread and the tournament report, I'll go over a couple things again, so that we have it covered.
@ See Beyond - This card was a test slot in a few local events, but prior to that we ran Ponder in this position. So effectively, this replaced Ponder. Given that Ponder was working fine, I'm not going to flat-out say that you shouldn't run it, or that See Beyond is strictly better than Ponder in this or any deck. However, I will say I've been impressed with See Beyond, and it has been exactly what I was looking for it to be - three more Brainstorms in a deck that REALLY likes to Brainstorm. While Ponder has the benefits of digging deeper and previewing the top of your deck before you play Mosswort Bridge (let's be honest - it doesn't actually set it up, it just lets you know 50% of the cards Bridge will access), See Beyond has the ability to put those extra copies of the dead cards back where you want them. Looking at it from another perspective, it draws two cards, and puts the most situationally useless card away. Often I found myself shuffling either a Land, a Dreadnought, a Chrome Mox, or a spare Emrakul back. In all of the times I cast the card, I never needed to shuffle an active card away.
Again, I will concede that if you decide to pick up the deck, you may prefer to run Ponder. If that's the case, I'm happy you're picking the deck up at all. If you'd like to consider it an experimental slot, then feel free to test it out and let me know what you think.
@ Answers for Emrakul - Sure. There are cards that answer him. There are also cards that answer Iona, and Sphinx of Steel Wind, and Inkwell, etc. Reanimator is still undoubtedly one of the format's best decks. The existence of answers to your threat does not cause the threat to be any less effective. I've answered a few of the specific cards, and others have as well. However, one specific point that people suggesting these problems are continually forgetting is the fact that activating Mosswort Bridge CASTS Emrakul. You get the extra turn. The opponent who has an active Jace will not have the opportunity to use him, if you don't give them the turn to do so. The player who has a Sower in hand looks pretty foolish when you ignore Show and Tell and Bridge -> bash; alternatively, you could play like you have a clue and either Thoughtseize them prior to casting S&T, or wait for another mana to Stifle the Sower. Post board, you suddenly have a creature that ignores 99%* of the problems you've laid out (while they're likely to board in more of those type of answers), and you get to play Pithing Needle, which answers about 75%* of them.
Duress Vs. Spell Pierce - I had considered Spell Pierce, but the issue is that it costs a mana on the turn you want to play Show and Tell or activate the Bridge. If I were going to play additional blue protection in that slot, it would be Misdirection, simply to have more pitch magic against other counterspells, to prevent them from stopping my own spells. The advantage of Duress is the ability to take their answers proactively, on turns one or two - this means you really only need to worry about the topdecks between that turn and the turn you "go off," which is where your own counters come in. Spell Pierce is awesome, don't get me wrong, but it makes S&T cost 4, or even more if your opponent is playing Daze.
*(percentages are a fabrication)
I don't feel this is being nit-picky; but the original post really doesn't seem to meet up to the standards established in the heading of the Established Decks section. Its clear that some testing has been doing with it and some work toward optimization has been done but I don't know how many people would agree that this deck list is definitive of the last word on the archetype. There is no match-up analysis included here and the report clearly doesn't cover the gauntlet.
That said, It looks interesting, I've done some goldfishing with and and it was terrible but I may try doing a run with this in my local tournament tonight. But man, See Beyond really isn't Brainstorm 5-7. I'll include a mini-write up. I'd like to echo the concern that this deck is really looking to hit 3 lands every game and there are only 18 (+2 Chrome mox) and the mana has just been driving me insane. For my tournament with the deck I'll likely be playing +1 Fetchland (Although there are times I can see really wanting a Bayou) -1 Show and Tell (I own 3, if I can get the 4th I may just play this list staright) Hopefully the deck does better in action than it has with my goldfishing.
Team Bad Guys
I have come up with an excellent way to be happy! Every time someone says a sentence I simply add on a few words after it:
Oh my goodness, it's been so great. People with stupid opinions now immediately acknowledge how dumb they are! Internet fights still have all the swears and name calling but now they're instantly undermined by my new suffix.Originally Posted by You
Entire deck concept is cold to Astral Slide. Hope it becomes popular online, will enjoy the free wins. Thanks.
But on a more serious note, I'm not really convinced that Emrakul is what you want to be Show and Telling into play given the ever increasing popularity of stuff like Karakas and Seal of Removal, which have been growing in popularity due to the growth of this exact type of strategy - i.e., cheat a big huge monster into play using S&T or Reanimate or NO or Loyal Retainers. You're pulling in a lot of splash damage with this as your main plan.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Umm, he does. If you hadn't noticed it's his favourite/pet deck and so he usually mentions it over and over and over. He has an Astral Slide thread started as well. (This is not meant to be disparaging to MC, just saying, it isn't a troll.)
Also, the entirety of my post still stands. Currently something like 2/3 of Legacy decks have a "cheat huge fatty into play and win" plan B going on. The format is adapting, and exposes a deck that relies on what is normally a Plan B as a Plan A to an absolutely absurd amount of splash damage. Honestly, how much longer will it be until people start boarding Fleshbag Marauders as a counter to Show and Tell/Eureaka tricks? Karakas is already everywhere, and O-Ring is gaining in popularity.
This is a cute deck, and it can be explosive, but it looks like a basically more combo oriented take on Dreadstill. And as the author notes, pretty much everyone can deal with a t2 12/12 now. Wont' be long before the decks that haven't bothered with it yet adapt to t2 "random giant legend" as well.
Also, Emidln, that was one of the most pathetic attempts at dismissing a Slide decks abilities I've ever seen. The obvious counter to a Stifle is to simply cycle another card. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.
True story:
In testing this deck, I cast Emrakul twice vs. Death and Taxes. Stifle Karakas trigger, and bash for 15.
He untaps, plays another Karakas, and I'm out of the game while he recovers.
This happened twice in one match.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
I did play with this deck, and it did about what I expected it to:
Round 1 - Enchantress.
Game 1 - I thoughtseize an Enchantress, Counter an Enchantress, Counter an Enchantress all while I set up. I finish setting up and then win.
Game 2 - He mulligans into land + Sprawl. He is missing the 3rd mana source. My turn 1 Thoughtseize takes ChokeI take a few turns to set up and then get Emrakul to win.
Round 2 - Reanimator
Game 1 - We screw around for a long time I can't seem to set anything decent up, he entombs a Woodfall primus, he has double animate-spell to being it back and it just kills me. I eschewed the suggested Graveyard hate for Misdirection, it wasn't favorable.
Game 2 - We screw around a lot again, He reanimates a Primus discarded Careful Study off, I Show and Tell an Emrakul, he gets a land.He Careful Studies again and Edicts me. I draw a Brainstorm while holding another Show and Tell, but The Brainstorm doesn't give me an Emrakul.
Round 3 - Goblins
Game 1 - Turn 1 Thoughtseize taking Vial, he has one land. Turn 2 Stifle-Nought. He concedes
Game 2 - Much closer he has turn 1 Lackey, I start setting up. He gets a Ringleader (That wiffs) and A vial on 2. I keep setting up. He gets a piledriver on 3. I Stifle-Nought, he attacks into it, I block the Piledriver, he Lackeys in a Matron for Stingscourger, bouncing Dreadnought. I play a Show and Tell, he has nothing, I have Emrakul. He topdecks a Matron but only plays one Stingscourger.
Round 4 - Bgw Loam
Game 1 - I get a turn 2 Show and Tell. I put in Emrakul (Hidden) He puts in Karakas. That was the end of that.
Game 2 - He keeps one land, Duress, Duress. He never really gets a second land and I set up 2 Bridges (Emrakul and Stifle) and finally find LDV for Nought. Put 27 damage on the table, take an extra turn.
Game 3 - I take a ton of beats while I try to find a third land, I lay an early Needle on Wasteland which keeps me in the game. He is struggling for white. I finally find my 3rd land and don't have time to Lim-Dul's Vault into Dreadnought (for the Emrakul uner my Bridge) so I go for Show and Tell, I put in Emrakul he puts in Knights of the [old] Republic (KotR) That turns a Bayou into a Karakas and makes it so I take even more lethal damage than before. I did get to misdirection a Vindicate at his Karakas, but I didn't draw another bunch of cards that I needed to even be in the game.
-------------------------------
My observations (some are restatements.)
The mana gave me all kinds of problems just like I thought it would. Its mandatory to jump through hoops to play anything because the deck needs GGBU to operate.
See Beyond was either decent or not very good. Ponder helps set up a turn 2 anything, where See Beyond can only do that with the assistance of Chrome Mox.
Mosswort bridge is an awful mana source.
I'm skeptical that Reanimator is as favorable as suggested.
KotR is a problem for all of these show and Tell decks because he always has the back-up of disruption of some sort.
Last edited by Master Shake; 05-20-2010 at 01:31 AM.
Team Bad Guys
I have come up with an excellent way to be happy! Every time someone says a sentence I simply add on a few words after it:
Oh my goodness, it's been so great. People with stupid opinions now immediately acknowledge how dumb they are! Internet fights still have all the swears and name calling but now they're instantly undermined by my new suffix.Originally Posted by You
I get it. You hate Stifle. Get over it.
Team Bad Guys
I have come up with an excellent way to be happy! Every time someone says a sentence I simply add on a few words after it:
Oh my goodness, it's been so great. People with stupid opinions now immediately acknowledge how dumb they are! Internet fights still have all the swears and name calling but now they're instantly undermined by my new suffix.Originally Posted by You
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)