This deck got 30th place in the recent tournament in Japan, and 30 out of 174 is impressive for a completely new deck. Check it out.
3xCaves of Koilos
3xCity of Brass
1xTarnished Citadel
1xMarsh Flats
8xSwamp
5xPlains
4xDeath's Shadow
4xLoxodon Peacekeeper
4xFlesh Reaver
4xBlood Celebrant
2xStoneforge Mystic
1xGarza's Assassin
3xUnspeakable Symbol
4xSign in Blood
2xPlunge into Darkness
3xRite of Consumption
4xInquisition of Kozilek
1xVindicate
2xOblivion Ring
1xLoxodon Warhammer
1xBasilisk Collar
3xEngineered Plague
1xWheel of Sun and Moon
1xTormod's Crypt
1xRelic of Progenitus
1xNull Rod
2xDuress
1xDefense Grid
1xSadistic Sacrament
1xSnuff Out
1xSwords to Plowshares
2xDisenchant
Wow right? It's literally dirt cheap to build, and makes 2 mana 4/4's look like nothing. I like it, personally. Apparently it can win alot of games too.
Discuss!
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but doesn't this deck lose to many variations of Zoo?
You put yourself at low life totals on purpose, but they also want to do that too.
I count 3 different creatures which try to kill the opponent by beating, two of which take advantage of a low life total.
Additionally there's a win con in Rite of Consumption.
To be honest I think the self-destructive life swings would make the deck incredibly difficult to play, since there'll be times where you wish you had more life to, well, survive, or had less life to take advantage of the creatures being used.
Anyways, just my opinion.
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Looks fun but LOL @ Zoo.
Isn't Thoughtseize better than Kozilek?
EDIT: Also, isn't Snuff Out worth considering? Blood Cervant seams weak, is there any other creature possible? And also, Sword of Vengance instead of Warhammer?
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Blood servant seems to be the fastest way to empty your life total. Is sad to see Sign in blood in there with so many great Necropotence-like effects in legacy, and I think it lacks cards that deal damage to all players. I would also consider playing cards like Wall of Souls to slow aggro. It's an interesting take to suicide decks, but looks like it could benefit from polishing.
Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".
I can't think of many cards that are more horrible in this strategy than Wall of Souls...
You should definately run 4 Thoughtseize indeed.
The problem I see with Loxodon Peacekeeper is that your opponent will eventually grab control of it right?
Team R&D
It only switches during the controller's upkeep, and this deck plausibly deals 8 or more damage per turn. You can also feed it to Rite of Consumption or Plunge into DarknessOriginally Posted by Mantis
Wouldn't a red splash be better? Loxodon Peacekeeper is cute and all, but is hardly worth being built around. Death's Shadow is more interesting, but the deck overall looks like it could use the additional reach.
It may be too slow but pestilence might be awesome in her.
Why not splash Green over White?
Goyf is a 4/5 for 2.
Also, needs moar duals and less City of Brass.
Wow everyone just fails at suggestions. Loxodon Peacekeeper is a 4/4 for 2. That's worth building around, same with Flesh Reaver. I wouldn't say that Thoughtseize is better than Inquisition, because you can cast Inquisition at low life totals where thoughtseize would be dead. The deck seems dangerous, but you have to play a deck 1,000 times to really grasp it fully. I'm sure the pilot was great.
Disapointing comments people.
All that jank just to play Death's Shadow and Loxodon Peacekeeper? This is an atrocious version of Eva Green.
This is because you haven't played the deck before commenting.
Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".
What an absurd comment.
A 4/4 for 2 is not worth building around, at least not while there is a fat green dude called Tarmogoyf. Especially one which is highly conditional and will randomly prevent you from dealing the last points of damage to kill an opponent.
You're reason for not playing Thoughtseize is silly, the exact same reason can be used to justify not playing Flesh Reaver, Sign in Blood and City of Brass. The deck plays so many mediocre cards which cost you life, so why not play one good one?
Seriously disappointing comment, unless you were channeling Cavius.
He probably jumped a few decks with the build, but honestly I don't like it. I like the sign in blood and such, but just unnecessary life loss most of the time. I played someone a while back tempting a build like this, he didn't fair well that tourney..
The fundamental problem I have is, the unnecessary damage you're taking with very little that you're achieving... besides expediting toward Death's Shadow. I mean, are you really gonna kick your own @ss just to get the lil' guy out quicker? The thing is... your opponent can do that for you, why not allow yourself that good ~10 life as a blanket and play spells that'll generate more CA and deal with board position WHILE losing the life..
for example:
- Snuff
- Pox
- Small Pox
- Contract from Below
- Arena
- fetchlands (instead of painlands, which provide you no benefit)
- Tombstalker (to work off gy, sign's, poxes, fetchlands..)
The shadow is great, but again it's a big creature with no evasion. I think it would be an amazing goyf blocker... say you're down to 5 life, opponent is at 10. You really need something like Tombstalker or something unblockable that's gonna get through damage. The unspeakable symbol is really bad, I would take that out also. Just so many better options in that slot, definitely rather 3x Snuff Out in that spot for board removal so your guys can get through.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
the power of this deck was probably in his opponents having no clue what he was up to and some luck.
ive played against a death shadow deck with shocklands, thoughtseize, snuff out, bob, top, ad naeseum,vindicate, angelic grace and rite and it seemed semi decent mainly because of the power level of the cards was high except for the death shadow/rite combo.
Death's shadow does deserve a good deck so i hope people keep working on this.
K mister 8 posts, lets go. That post was in response to some1 saying that white wasn't worth it. White is in the deck for 9 MD cards, along with SB options. those cards are 4 Loxodon Peacekeeper, 2 Oblivion Ring, 1 Vindicate, and 2 Stoneforge Mystic. I was pointing out that a 4/4 for 2 is in fact very good. Yes Tarmogoyf exists, and when you compare the Loxodon to him, Goyf comes out on top. News flash, Tarmogoyf is better than every creature in the game CC to PT, so that's an unfair comparison. Loxodon is always a 4/4, something Tarmogoyf cannot say, and he fits like a glove into this deck (completely original/new). What I was saying, was that he is worth the 4 slots in the deck, and the playing of white. What white also provides the deck is an Equipment tutor in SFM. This is a critical role, note both Basilisk Collar and Warhammer having Lifelink. Seems important. Playing Thoughtseize is probably good, but I just wanted to call attention to how often this deck is almost killing itself the turn before it's about to win the game. Inquisition can always be casted in those situations, and Thoughtseize really can't. I think there are enough lifeloss outlets in the deck already, where the -2 from Thoughtseize is usually not important. Flesh Reaver can carry a lifelink equipment and not kill you, Sign in Blood can be casted on the opponent, and City of Brass can not be tapped. Thoughtseize is always going to Shock you, and being that this deck almost kills itself on purpose every game, there will eventually/often be times where you need to cast your discard spell at low life totals. This isn't baseless, I've thought about it a decent amount.
also, 1 Tarmogoyf costs $60+ and 1 Loxodon Peacekeeper costs 5cents. That's a reason.
There are such things are Rogue decks you know...
I wasn't criticizing the choice of White over Green, I think the deck could/should support both given the willingness to play a high number of fetches/City of Brass. I was pointing out how absurd your comment was, criticizing people for giving honest appraisal of the deck and for making suggestions like 'play goyf' and 'thoughtseize is better than inquisition when you are trying to lose life'. I don't need to post another 1500 times to know that good cards are good.
How is Tarmogoyf an unfair comparison? It is a 2 cmc creature which is far better than the 2 cmc creatures this deck is playing.
Tarmogoyf is always under your control without you having to kill yourself, which is something Loxodon Peacekeeper cannot say.
Why do you need to cast Inquisition if you are "about to win the game", surely the point of playing one mana discard spells is to cast them early game for hand disruption. While casting them to ensure that your Rite of Consumption doesn't get countered is useful, it certainly doesn't seem like it is worth playing a card which is almost strictly worse for a very specific situation. i.e. Late game when you are on 2 or less life, or 4-5 Vs a deck playing Burn.
Surely the same argument for not tapping City of Brass applied to Thoughtseize. Just as you can not tap City of Brass for mana when you don't need it/can afford the life, you can choose to not cast Thoughtseize if the risk is too high. I am sure you have thought about it quite a bit, but that means almost nothing, as I have no confidence in your judgment.
The price of the cards shouldn't come into any argument when discussing the best card choices for a particular strategy. It is fine to justify making certain choice for your own decks, but it isnt reasonable to say 'X is the correct choice for this deck because it is less expensive than Y'.
Last edited by Wakkarr; 07-27-2010 at 06:32 AM.
The guy was probably on a budget. There's really no reason to not run the full 4 Vindicates.
Also, being the dickbutt I am, I demand a blue splash for Shelldock Isle and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
Also, Duress hits Force, and Inquisition doesn't. Perhaps we should look to Hollywood's recent 3rd-place with The Gate for ideas, Troopa?
Also, the list has a lot of holes in it. Here's an idea:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scrubland
2 Godless Shrine
3 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Flesh Reaver
4 Loxodon Peacekeeper
2 Death's Shadow
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
3 Death Wish
4 Dark Ritual
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
1 Syphon Life
1 Raven's Crime
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Path to Exile
Sideboard:
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Damnation
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Infernal Contract
1 Cenn's Enlistment
1 Angel's Grace
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Profane Command
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
Bad list, yeah, but at least it isn't packed tighter than gay ass with 1-ofs.
Also, you may want to consider Chrome Mox to drop 4/4s on your first turn.
I've tested a similiar deck and Death's Shadow can be a beating. My build runs Snuff Out and Vendetta, which is amazing at getting rid of Knights of the Reliquary and such. Vendetta was always the star of the deck, and I ran Jitte since the deck can get pretty low on life at times.
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