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Thread: [DTB] Sneak Attack

  1. #21

    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    So this is the list I'm going to test for Nashville. I still need ideas for the sideboard.

    2 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Sandstone needle
    4 Shivan Reef
    1 Volcanic (should be 4)
    7 Island

    4 Simian Spirit Guide 0/2R
    2 SDT 1
    4 Chalice of the Void XX
    3 3Sphere 3
    3 Blood Moon 2R
    1 Erratic Explosion 2R
    3 Fact or Fiction 3U
    4 Show and Tell 2U
    4 Sneak attack 3R
    1 Through the Breach4R
    1 Undying Flames 4RR
    2 Prog 10
    3 Ulamog 11
    4 Emrakul 15

    SB (as of now)
    4 Faerie Macabre
    4 Pyroblast (replace chalice in merfolk matchup)
    4 Firespout
    3 Bounce spell/answer to hate

  2. #22

    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    How about 2 Wipe Away and one Echoing Truth in the board?

  3. #23
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Yeah I think Darkenslight has the right idea. Wipe Away is your best answer period to Humility and Echoing Truth is good against Dredge's Bridge from Below tokens especially.

    Good luck to ya

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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Quote Originally Posted by JustPAT4 View Post

    I took my personal list down to Vestal, NY for Jupiter Games' 40 Duals Competition and managed to sneak away with 2nd place overall.

    My list:
    [CARDS]
    4 Sneak Attack
    4 Show and Tell

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    3 Intuition

    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Pierce

    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    3 Progenitus
    3 Woodfall Primus

    3 Lotus Petal
    2 Seething Song

    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Island
    2 Mountain
    Just curious, why no main deck bounce?

    Don't you think that wipe away is better then echoing truth because most things that you want to bounce play in a deck with counter back up or other answers?

  5. #25
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney View Post
    Just curious, why no main deck bounce?

    Don't you think that wipe away is better then echoing truth because most things that you want to bounce play in a deck with counter back up or other answers?
    Well it's a couple of reasons... First of all, in my experience, the bounce effects are so rarely relevant in today's environment. Because I consider this to be the case, precious maindeck slots for bounce spells don't make sense to me. In my last 36 matches, I've sided in Echoing Truth a grand total of twice (both times vs. Dredge).

    That said, Wipe Away vs. Echoing Truth is an interesting arguement. It really comes down to what you are more worried about/see more of. They are different cards with different advantages. Echoing Truth is pretty spicy tech against Dredge and Belcher, making those tokens look ridiculous. Wipe Away shines against UWg Landstill and ThopterSword combo in particular because it gets you out from underneath Humility for a turn with no questions asked (unless Counter Balance chimes in). Additionally it hits Karakas. However, there is more immediate tech you want against those decks post-board anyway (Pyroblast, Blood Moon).

    So it really comes down to your own meta I think. I definitly wouldn't disagree with 1 or 2 Wipe Away maindeck in a big tournament, but you'll probably find yourself siding it out in more matchups than you leave it in.

  6. #26
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    I took the following list down to Vestal, NY for their Lotus and Moxen event yesterday. I finished 5th out of a field of 115.


    4 Sneak Attack
    4 Show and Tell

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Intuition

    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze

    4 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
    3 Progenitus
    3 Woodfall Primus

    3 Lotus Petal
    2 Seething Song

    3 Ancient Tomb
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Island
    1 Mountain

    Sideboard:

    3 Pyroblast
    3 Blood Moon
    3 Firespout
    3 Echoing Truth
    3 Tormod's Crypt


    I ended up going 6-2 (13-5) on the day. The only decks I lost to were New Horizons and Zoo (Decks I also stomped during the tournament). I had no trouble with TES, Reanimator, or Vengevival. I beat New Horizons when my deck didn't vomit all over me and I beat Zoo with relative ease two of the three times I played it. (The Zoo list that did give me trouble was running maindeck Gaddock Teeg AND Karakas (plus KOTR) which marginalized bringing Emrakul to Show and Tell, plan 1a against Zoo.)

    All things considered I'm still pretty confident in this deck in the current Legacy environment. The new, popular kid on the block, Vengevine with Survival, gives this deck another favorable matchup that shows up all over the place.

  7. #27

    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Congrats to ur result, i played 11-3 in two ~75 player tourneys with my show and tell deck (without sneak but with personal tutor and black for discard). i like to see that blood moon handels karakas and that this deck is more speedy than mine, but i see some problems with ur combo matchup, what about adding 3 spell pierce in the board instead of tcrypt. ur dredge MU isnt that bad with echoing truth in the board and you'll see less dredge then combo i guess.

    is seething song that good? i guess a 4th petal and a 4th intuition are more constant in that slot (petal, tomb, seething song, sneak attack, and 2 creatures doesnt happen that often).

    do you have any sort of sb-plan for ur deck?

  8. #28
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Hi again,

    i only was able to test the two Seething Songs instead of the 2 Echoing Truth in two games yet so i really don't know if i like them or not as i always boarded them out..

    1st match vs Dredge was stupid...Game 1 i forced his discard outlet round one and lay down the Emrakul round 2...Game 2 he mulls to 4 and i start of with T. Crypt round one and Emrakul again in Round 2....

    2nd match vs Lands was "different"...

    Round1: He got the nuts hand and i'm screwed on one land until approx round 10...
    Round2: He keeps me at two Islands (lucky me as he has a wasteland already waiting...) locked with 2 Rishadan Port's for about 5-6 round but i'm able to resolve a Blood Moon in the next round and its over 2 rounds after (Sneak into Emrakul + Primus)
    Round3: He mulls to 4...and i keep a hand with 2 Sneak Attack's, Intuition, 1 Show and Tell + 2 Lands and Top. He is able to grip my first Sneak Attack but the 2nd one clears his board and i win the next round.

    I boarded vs Dredge: - 2 Ponder / - 2 Seething Song / - 1 Lotus Petal / - 3 Woodfall Primus / + 3 T. Crypt / + 3 Echoing Truth + 2 Red Elemental Blasts

    The Woodfall Primus perhaps should stay in but i prefered the cards from the board

    If i remember right i boarded vs Lands: - 2 Ponder / -1 Lotus Petal / -2 Seething Song / -1 Daze / + 3 T.Crypt / + 3 Blood Moon
    currently playing:

    Maverick, Dredge, TES..: still lot of work to do...

    - anonyme Weltstars -

  9. #29
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Quote Originally Posted by APodeschwa View Post
    is seething song that good? i guess a 4th petal and a 4th intuition are more constant in that slot (petal, tomb, seething song, sneak attack, and 2 creatures doesnt happen that often).
    Here's the thing about Seething Song; it's either a dead card or a friggin All-Star with no room in between.

    Would +1 Lotus Petal and +1 Intuition be more consistent in its place? Arguably yes. However, the deck is pretty darn consistent as is and Seething Song opens up the potential for the lucky hand, something I always look for in a long tournament. Also you don't need 2 critters to cripple the opponent with Sneak Attack. Turn 2 or Turn 3 Seething Song into Sneak Attack choosing either Emrakul or Woodfall Primus is pretty much devastating and buys you valuable time.

    The fact of the matter is Seething Song has flat out won me games in situations where Intuition and Lotus Petal would've been too slow. And I don't think that starring at the Seething Song in my hand has ever cost me a game...I play pretty close attention to it when it comes up because it really seems like a marginal card.

    Quote Originally Posted by APodeschwa View Post
    do you have any sort of sb-plan for ur deck? I see some problems with ur combo matchup, what about adding 3 spell pierce in the board instead of tcrypt. ur dredge MU isnt that bad with echoing truth in the board and you'll see less dredge then combo i guess.
    Of course I have a sideboard plan for my deck... Actually you've hit on the very thing I'm considering at the moment. The Storm matchup is poor on paper and my current sideboard yields no help whatsoever. That said, I'm 4-1 (9-4) in the 5 times I've played against Storm Combo. Go figure. Chalk it up to bad draws if you want, but if they don't hit their discard spells (or Chant) it actually becomes a favorable matchup... Still you're right, I do want Spell Pierce in the Board. I just don't think cutting Tormod's Crypt is the right call. It's a go-to card against Dredge, Lands, and Reanimator and that already makes it more versatile than Echoing Truth. For the past few days I've been considering cutting x2 Echoing Truth from the board, finding a singleton maindeck whole for Wipe Away, and adding +2 Spell Pierce to the board.
    Last edited by JustPAT4; 10-13-2010 at 12:50 PM.

  10. #30

    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Seething Song is VERY good in this deck and i am still trying to currently test it at 4 copies MB. there are plenty of times when you can use it turn 1 but mostly turn 2 is easier to get with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors and such. its good because it puts a sneak attack in play. I used to run Sundering Titans a few months ago since it wasn't hard to seething song (i ran 3 back then) one into play since they costed only 8 mana and they used to give very good board position (and if the opponnent somehow StP's it then they get more lands blown up. But since Woodfall can stay on board even after u sneak one in i started using them instead.

  11. #31
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Quote Originally Posted by JustPAT4 View Post
    I took the following list down to Vestal, NY for their Lotus and Moxen event yesterday. I finished 5th out of a field of 115.


    4 Sneak Attack
    4 Show and Tell

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Intuition

    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze

    4 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
    3 Progenitus
    3 Woodfall Primus

    3 Lotus Petal
    2 Seething Song

    3 Ancient Tomb
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Island
    1 Mountain

    Sideboard:

    3 Pyroblast
    3 Blood Moon
    3 Firespout
    3 Echoing Truth
    3 Tormod's Crypt


    I really, really think you need to get the 4th Acient Tomb in their for sure. Korey Age agreed he would make this change and has going from 3-4. Want it in your opening hand and no better way to do that then maxing out and increasing your chances.


    Quote Originally Posted by affinitypimp View Post
    Seething Song is VERY good in this deck and i am still trying to currently test it at 4 copies MB. there are plenty of times when you can use it turn 1 but mostly turn 2 is easier to get with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors and such. its good because it puts a sneak attack in play. I used to run Sundering Titans a few months ago since it wasn't hard to seething song (i ran 3 back then) one into play since they costed only 8 mana and they used to give very good board position (and if the opponnent somehow StP's it then they get more lands blown up. But since Woodfall can stay on board even after u sneak one in i started using them instead.
    Seething Song is not just good but is in fact great in the context of this particular deck. Song should be in this deck and anybody who has top 8 at any major legacy event playing this deck used 2-3 of them. Using one is futile and with all due respect, 4 is just too many.

    Look at it like this. Wild Mongrel and especially Aquamoeba are bad creatures and should not be in any viable legacy deck. However, in the context of Survival/ Vengevine they serve their purpose and are very playable in the context of that particular deck. I think the same thing must be said about Seething Song in the context of Sneak Show.

    Spell Pierce has been main decked for me for the same reason Saito moved them from the baord to main deck at GP Columbas; fear of combo which is huge in my metagame right now. In large scale tournaments you have to be prepared for that which is why Age had two miandeck, and two sideboard at GP Columbus. I like 2-3 maindeck.

  12. #32
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Yeah I can't disagree about the fourth Ancient Tomb. The deck LOVES to see one... The problem is that it HATES to see two.

    However, Brainstorm and 8 fetches does occasionally help shuffle away this problem should it occur. I've been going back and fourth between 3 and 4 and I'm currently marking an island as an Ancient Tomb as I test.

    As for Spell Pierce, It's gotta be a meta call. If you're seeing a decent amount of Combo, run 2-3 maindeck. If you're seeing a relatively low amount of combo, board 2-3. If Combo is seriously low to nonexistent in your meta, you can cut it completely... If you're entering any tournament with 75 or more players and not boarding at least 2, it may come back to haunt you.

    I got paired against TES round 2 down in Vestal this past weekend after dropping round 1. When I realized the matchup, I nearly punched myself in the dick for not adding the Spell Pierces to the board. I got seriously lucky to sweep that matchup.

  13. #33
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    I actually have the same problem with the Spell Pierce and the Red Elemental Blasts :) I always decide before the tournament which of them i will play...and it is often not easy to choose...

    About the lands, i played five of the 2 colorless lands for a while and it was never a real problem as i always wanted one of them in round 2 latest (4 A. Tombs 1x City of Traitors) but as i forgot to take the 4th A. Tomb to the last tournament i added a 3rd island and played 3x A. Tomb and 1 City of Traitors and it was perfect. I don't want to run four A. Tomb as the life loss can be a problem(i lost 1-2 games which i would have won if i only had 1-2 life more...) ofc one City of Traitors does not make a huge difference but is helpful time by time.

    Have you guys tried Sensei's Divining Top now? I still believe its better than Ponder Nr. 3 & 4 ;)
    currently playing:

    Maverick, Dredge, TES..: still lot of work to do...

    - anonyme Weltstars -

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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Im from Czech Republic, so be patient with my english!

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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    I've been playing the Mono-Red Sneak Attack ver. (One which was good 5 years ago that used Dragon Tyrant, Blazing Shoal, Nicol Bolas, etc.) and after seeing the GP Top8, I now see that UR Sneak Show is definitely the way to go.

    Since Eldrazi I've been taking a look at Hellcarver Demon. Is he viable in a UR build? I know in the Mono-Red ver that uses a Dragon Stompy Shell he can fit, but is he justified in UR? The problem I often ran into when trying to use him is that if I wanted to make full use of his ability I needed 16+ creature count, which is hard to obtain in this deck. Here was a list I've been testing:

    4 Hellcarver Demon
    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    4 Kozilek, the Butcher of Truth
    4 Woodfall Primus

    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Show and Tell

    4 Sneak Attack
    3 Lotus Petal
    2 Seething Song

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Scalding Tarns
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Mountain

    Based on my testings of him I found that while he does allow for some amazing plays, he also forces me to cut a lot of protection (ie. Daze, Spell Spierce, Wipe Away, etc.), thus making me more vulnerable to losing counterwars (which are especially prominant in my meta that consistent has 3+ Merfolks, 2 Survivals and 2 Bants).

    How has Progenitus been working for those who've used him? When I was using him in the MonoRed ver I found that beyond the initial 10 damage he did little to affect the gamestate which I felt was necessary. Does his evasion alone make him useful?

    I think Seething Song more than justifies itself in this deck, however with the 8 fetches/8 cantrips I think we shouldn't have too much difficulty finding them if necessary, so we can live off 2 and bumb the Tomb count to 4 (which I found provides more explosiveness overall in the deck).

    ForlornEgoist

  16. #36
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Sick find addaro!

    This list made Top 4 at the 245 player Eternal Festival in Tokyo (The text after the list are Tomoharu Saito’s impressions):

    Show and Tell/Sneak Attack / Yuuki Ookubo – Top 4

    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    3 Progenitus
    1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

    4 Brainstorm
    2 Ponder
    1 Personal Tutor
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Intuition

    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    1 Echoing Truth

    4 Show and Tell
    4 Sneak Attack

    2 Lotus Petal

    3 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Misty Rainforest
    2 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors

    • Sideboard

    3 Meddling Mage
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Pithing Needle
    3 Extirpate
    2 Perish

    "This deck uses Show and Tell and Sneak Attack to put huge creatures into play. Here, white and black were added to earlier blue and red versions, in particular Enlightened Tutor. Because of this card you can tutor for Sneak Attack, but also if you only have Show and Tell in hand you can search for Sphinx of the Steel Wind. As such, it seemed that due to the white splash the deck’s stability had increased considerably. I felt that Personal Tutor had much the same effect. And, it’s interesting to think that in a long game you could probably also win by hardcasting Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Because it is four colors, I had the feeling that this deck could still develop further. This build plays Enlightened Tutor, and as a result if I were to play this deck I have the feeling I would like to play one copy of Oblivion Ring in the main deck or sideboard to handle my opponent’s various enormous permanents in the mirror including Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Then, even if my opponent put Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into play using Show and Tell when I have Progenitus in play, I could search for Oblivion Ring using Enlightened Tutor and regain control."

    There are so many places to pick up discussion on this list and Saito's brief analysis... White for MD E-tutor and SB Meddling Mage, Black for SB Extirpate and Perish, MD Pyroblast/REB, No Seething Song, 21 MD land with Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors Split... Increased vulnerability to Wasteland... No Blood Moon option. Black splash, but no MD Lim-Dul's Vault ( which seems pretty spicy).

    This one's juicy folks and there's LOTS of places to go with this discussion. Can't wait to get something rolling!

  17. #37
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Quote Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist View Post
    Since Eldrazi I've been taking a look at Hellcarver Demon. Is he viable in a UR build?
    Hey Egoist,

    So I began testing Hellcarver Demon with the Eldrazi legends in mono-red Sneak Attack as soon as they were spoiled and these were my impressions: First of all, too bulky (too many maindeck slots consumed by monsters just so that the Hellcarver Demon doesn't punt the match for you). Secondly, with the exception of Emrakul, all the critters were vulnerable to Swords/Path which was very annoying. And finally, even with 8 Eldrazi monsters the chances of hitting one off of Hellcarver, while good, were not spectacular (each card of the top was about a 1 in 6 shot to be a monster).

    So the short answer is no. In my opinion, Hellcarver Demon is absolutely not viable nor desirable in a competitive legacy environment, especially not with Show and Tell builds. With UR builds you need to focus more on control and resolving your key spells... I think Hellcarver Demon and all the friends he craves takes up too much precious space.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist View Post
    How has Progenitus been working for those who've used him? When I was using him in the MonoRed ver I found that beyond the initial 10 damage he did little to affect the gamestate which I felt was necessary. Does his evasion alone make him useful?
    Yeah I think you're right about this one. In mono-red Sneak Attack, if you're lucky enough to get 1 activation (or resolve a Through the Breach) you better be threatening to win the game or cripple the opponent enormously. Progenitus just doesn't do that. Emrakul does. Protean Hulk does. Serra Avatar does (against control oriented decks). Sovereigns of Lost Alara (+Pattern of Rebirth/Eldrazi Conscription) does/can.

    In Sneak Attack with Show and Tell however, Progenitus rocks. Not surprisingly, most decks can't recover if you bring Progen to Show and Tell turns 1-3. Plus he un-Swords/Path-able, un-Karakas-able, hell for all intents and purposes he's un-everything-able (expect Perish-able). Also he doesn't outright suck with Sneak Attack, he is an auto 10--and perhaps most significantly, he pitches to Force of Will in a pinch.

  18. #38
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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Quote Originally Posted by addaro View Post
    Don't like this list for a variety of reasons. First and foremost splashing black and white to a deck that already has to play red and blue now playing four colours in total with a deck that generally only plays 18-19 land is very risky and too inconsistent.

    That being said, the metagame in that particular tourney would have seen any decent version of Sneak Show do very well. I do, however, take my hat of to him for that impressive finish.

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    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney View Post
    Don't like this list for a variety of reasons. First and foremost splashing black and white to a deck that already has to play red and blue now playing four colours in total with a deck that generally only plays 18-19 land is very risky and too inconsistent.
    I donno if I'd call the list inconsistent (he was running 21 lands and the White mana was only used for 1 spell MB, Black 0 MB), but risky perhaps. It's definitely much more vulnerable to land hate. The ability to effectively play around Wasteland and Board in Blood Moon is one of the things I like most about the UR version.

    To be sure, I think that Ookubo's list could use some work, but there's something to it that I feel shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

  20. #40

    Re: Sneak Attack with Show and Tell

    What I did that improved a bit my matchup against the Gate (and other decks that pack black for the SB hate) is a single Dryad Arbor in my sideboard. Since I play 4 Misty Rainforests, I can not pop one, and let it sit there waiting for the edict.

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