Bitterblossom is the reason I just to play DeadGuy. It's GREAT with SFM, good idea.
And it's definitely open to discussion, let's call it another package. :)
Saying Mox Diamonds are a must is just silly since people have reported playing successfully without them - you playing a few games vs what you think will be a metadeck after the bannings does not equal fact.
I can see SFM being great in some situations post-bannings (goblins, i.e.) but also utterly terrible in other (Stifle & Spell Snare being go-to cards in blue decks).
SFM/GSZ/hymn package actually does WORK, but I do want to fit moxens in there, but if I do I'd have to cut one of these three.
Post-bannings I'll just revert back into pure GSZ unless someone comes up with proven results that show another build to be stronger.
Matt, tough breaks about Bant deck. I'm interested in why you chose light and shadow over any of the others. Was it for the life or to get a lost creature? Was the list you played (recurring nightmare) Nic Fit (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...enith-Control))? What caused issues? I haven't had a chance to play against the deck style yet so I won't be much good outside if theory.
Last edited by damionblackgear; 09-24-2011 at 04:29 AM. Reason: Linked
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I chose L+S since I knew there would be a ton of Stoneblade, which I never faced...AGAIN. L+S is good since you can attack Jace through their BS and SFM, or block their Batterskull until they hook it up to Clique. Getting back a countered creature or a creature milled by Body and Mind is also good. I played against a custom list, very similar to Nic Fit, but with Blue added for Gifts Ungiven and Brainstorm.
The deck was good since making Gifts piles can be a bit of a dick. The deck has a ton of long game advantage with The Abyss, tons of Eternal Witnesses, Spike Weavers, etc. Just not a lot to hit, but hard to kill since it drags out the game.
I'm working on lists at the moment. But, I'm also working on Dreadstill, Aggro Loam, Thopters :)
-Matt
Sounds like CalebD's first take on the BUG Nic Fit-list, I think he abandoned it (and to be fair if you go BUG Nic Fit, you go Natural Order).
I'm curious about your list Matt, but also about peoples thoughts on why certain cards (hymn, SFM, GSZ) would be good/bad and why in the future.
Am myself also busy with a certain Naught-build (though with Snapcaster Mage and a certain faerie, and no Standstill...), great minds think alike!
My list is the same as I've posted a few times. I can post it again if necessary, but it's like 523 AM :P
GSZ is good like it was pre-MM (I playeed 2 GSZ and 2 Equipment, but no SFM at Providence and almost made Day 2, even against Stoneblade at the time) because you can fetch Teeg against Dredge/Combo/Jace, and Qasali against Batterskull, or just a creature when you need it. It also fetches Ooze, which is really good now, as far as I've tested.
I think Hymn is still a great card. The format is faster, and will be a bit less stable to get that speed. People will be running more tempo, less real lands, and more gunpowder packed into the same cannon of 60 cards. Taking away any of that will be detrimental. Taking out their lands or key plays is a huge swing, especially if you're running blue (was playing BUG Team America yesterday and went Hymn, they Snared, I misstepped, he missteped, I forced. Wewt!)
SFM is a bit trickier, I'll think a bit more about it, plus I've got to go pick up beta duals at a clandestine IHOP meeting
-Matt
I've been playing the rock for a long time. Before New Phyrexia (and mental misstep), I played a zenith list, very similar to those of the SCG tournaments (3-4 zenith e 2-3 singletons). During the reign of MM, I played Junk Depths. Now that wizzy banned MM, I'm really not sure about which list is the best for the next metagame. Next week I'm going to play in the most important legacy tournament here in Italy (it's the sixth year it takes place, with an average of 350 players) so I hope to go there with the best possible decklist. At this moment I'm testing 2 different builds: the former is the zenith one, the latter is a decklist, I'm developping with SFM package, very similar to the others I see in this topic. For instance, the 2 decklists are:
Zenith Rock
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Vindicate
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SFM Rock
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
What do you think is the best way of approaching to the new metagame?
@James22, I would want a Scavaging Ooze somewhere in the 75 of the zenith build, a 2nd tutorable anti-gravehate (after B-Bog) could be quite backbrakeing against Dredge, which didnt really get affected by the mistep ban.
Traditional Dredge got better with the banning of Misstep, since all their discard outlets are 1-CMC.
-Matt
James, I am using a similar list to yours, however here are some key changes that would make.
1. Perish is not very good on the board, it kills our creatures, and I don't think Prog is that big of a threat anymore to warrant using perish.
2. I dont think you need Krosan Grip if you are already have Pernicious Deed. They fulfill the same purpose, and you need more protection against combo.
Personally, I would either run some spot removal, or an elspeth/pithing needle/thrun/duresses.
Thrun is fine as a 1 of. It is better being cast than it is as a green sun target.
Just my 2 cents.
Deed and grip DO NOT serve the same purpose at all. Grip is specifically designed to kill Batterskull, whereas Deed is usually used for wiping out swarms of dudes.
They CAN serve the same function, but usually do NOT.
-Matt
Personally I would not rely on the SFM package, although it might give you a better matchup against dredge and zoo in the first game (return Batterskull to your hand, germ triggers in the graveyard and removes bridge from below in opposing graveyard and against zoo you always have a chump block ready as long as SFM is on board). However, since a Rock build doesn't contain any counter spells or card draw ala "Ancestral Vision" or handfixer like "Brainstorm" SFM is almost a dead card in this deck. Thus you can't protect him on board and believe me, you always want to protect him once you have the skull. Otherwise it os just a 5 mana equip. Why playing a second equipment next to Batterskull anyway? You ALWAYS want to got for the skull and tutor it as early as possible, or not? Can't really imagine a situation where you want to cheat in a "Sword of..." on EOT turn 3... If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me
Junk (or Rock) always works better with heavy disruption I guess. Play as much discard as you can and vindicate/place deed for any opposing threats/lands early.
SFM doesn't do anything of these thoughts here, thats my point of view at least =). Dark Confidant and Knight of the Reliquary already creating enough troubles for our opponent if he doesn't FoW or swords any of them. But with MM gone the tides have turned. A lot of combo decks will come back, Goblins, more zoo, more NO RUG I guess and countertop (with swords of the meek and thopter foundry combo). Neither Deck is a favorable matchup. Ok, Pernicious Deed might handle a lot of threats but remember that our opponent can make explosive openings as well (land, zenith, dryad, noble hierach - pray that you have swords in this moment or any cheap removal).
Scavenging Ooze is a card that only has effect if it hits the redzone on the first or second turn... while cards like wheel of sun and moon, leyline of the void or Tormods Crypt do a better job, sometimes even in the middle of the game. I simply do not want to sit down and leave mana open for Ooze while I could possibly cast hymn or thoughtseize or even Bob. I have to admit that I didn't test the Ooze so far but the one green mana to activate it's ability gives me the shivers. Of course, if the 1-of-Ooze is in your opening hand and can do Mox, Land, Ooze against the given matchup then GG I would say. If you're not able to hardcast him on the first turn you'll probably go for GSZ on Ooze... Oh, that makes 2 mana for GSZ and one untapped mana source that hopefully produces green. Not really favorable in any way.
Green Sun on the other hand is a great card and it deserves to be tested in an unknown meta. I think that the most favorable built should be this one as a reference: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=1533&d=211915. It seems to me that it doesn't need that much modifications or updates at all, don't you think?
The only thing I would change is to cut the 3 Tops and add 3 Vindicate instead. I guess the life loss because of confidant shouldn't matter since most of our spells cost 1 or 2 mana. At least 26 cards have either no mana cost or cost 0. Only eight 3 mana drops in mb sounds fair enough. Umezawas Jitte is the best equipment (again) to handle Fish, Zoo and other beat down decks. I see no problem having it in my opening hand or draw it later in the game, nonetheless it's a tremendous threat if you have access to it in the early game as well. Finally, the sideboard made my day:
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Perish
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Enlightened Tutor Sideboard which also interacts great with my mainboard (jitte, mox if needed). Of course, this is not the Uber sideboard against each and every deck. But I basically like the idea to include this little toolbox, although i miss Extirpate here and Diabolic Edict... Choke and Thorn of Amethyst might say goodbye and welcome 2 Extirpate.
Speaking of Toolbox, what do you guys think adding about 2-3 Crop Rotation in our mainboard? It gives us an early access to bojuka bog, karakas or tower of the magistrate and Wastelands if you like/need. Since it is an instant it can be chained to opposing wastelands as well and might even protect us from being screwed. It also fills our graveyard with fetch and wastelands for Knight of the Reliquary, which becomes quite big in the early game. 6/6 on turn 2 if you play with mox :)
I also have a list around with 3 Unearth, 2 Witness, 3 Kitchen Finks, Volrath, 4 Knights, 4 Goyfs, 4 Vindicate, 3 Deed, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Extirpate, 1 Garruk Wildspeaker; all MB. The rest if the deck is Rock standard, just without Mox. Although it appears to be slow it can become quite the bomb if you survive and disrupt the early game of your opponent. Question is if this Idea needs too much mana nowadays and too mucg turns to go full throttle. Unearth is always a tricky move, since it can return all our creatures from grave or we simply cycle it in case we don't need it...
You just FoW my Gaddock Teeg!? Unearth! That surely can ruin someones day.
It becomes even more funny with the Circle Witness, Volrath, Unearth :).
I've piloted this deck back in Madrid 2010 and it was a terrific performance. Although I went 5-3, I had so much fun playing it and havinf answers in MB to nearly everything. The 3 games I lost were due to bad plays from my side and lack of experience in Legacy I would say. My wins were against 2 Countertop/Supreme Blue Decks, 1 Show and Tell, 1 Affinity, 1 Dredge. Earned the losses against 1 Madness Survival (although I had him after the first game I made a big mistake bording Deed out), 1 Faeries (mana screwed and mulligan to 4 in the first and second game), 1 Merfolk (he simply had the perfect draw in game 1, game 2 never finished because of time out...)
These are just my 2 cents of thoughts and ideas within this archetype. Maybe you guys see a way to use Unearth or Crop Rotation in a better way. For now I will test the Zenith Horizon Variant as posted above and might come back with proper test results.
Cheerio
P.S: Since I'm from Germany my english might not be that accurate ;).
Last edited by Treehouse; 09-25-2011 at 04:21 AM.
SFM package is CA, and if you do not get Batterskull it won't be a big deal. I agree, it feels weird not to fetch it, but I've not even wanted it in the deck until I got convinced that it's sadly that good.
Land, Zenith, Dryad, Noble is quite an illegal play...
Scavenging Ooze is better at alot of things than it is at hating out dredge (since like you said, you need it FAST vs dredge).
It wins Knight-wars, this is ridicilously important in some matchups.
It grows fucking huge, fast, believe me... AND the lifegain can be relevant. It's a beating.
Your last list reminds me of the Rock Nic Fit lists, check out that thread, you'd like it.
Going to a GPT now, playing SFM/GSZ hybrid, wish me luck...
Guess I have to give you that one on "Land, Zenith, Dryad, Noble is quite an illegal play... ". Forgot for a moment that cruel little summoning sickness. But you get the idea.
Good luck on the Trial!
@stealth: ooze is a card I'm going to test obviously. Many friends of mine told me it's awesome in several MU and situations. Actually, I haven't decided where I have to place it, into the main deck or into the sideboard. As sdematt said Dregde got really better with the MM banning.
@Krondo9
1. Perish anti-sinergy with the deck is really less important than you think. I sided it in, in MUs where Rock has to act the role of a control deck, so there's no need of overextending... Usually you side it in against Maverick and Punishing Zoo (here in Italy thery are hugely played), and it's not unusual to make 4x2 or something like that. However the 2 sideboards are both under construction, and they are not completely defined.
2. In the SFM list we haven't zenith-for-qasali, so I feel more confident having a good way to deal with batterskull or counterbalance.
Here's why you run multiple equipment with the SFM package: if you start with an equipment in hand, draw an equipment before you play SFM, or resolve one SFM and then resolve a second. These situations come up quite frequently.Originally Posted by Treehouse
Just another note that I'd like to reiterate from previous posts I made: one of the reasons SFM package is so good in this deck is because of your SB options. You get to bring in SoBaM or SoLaS (or SoFaI) against mirror, Deadguy, Bant aggro/NO, etc...and just slaughter. If you resolve a sword against a deck that has 2 of its colors, it's really tough for them to win. This alone has one me games/matches with ease. Just one of the many reasons to play this package.
The only thing that's awkward is the amount you use the word awkward.
GPT did not go well, turns out mashing 2 strategies because you can't choose is not a good idea. (Also, the meta in that town was ridicilous.)
I'm probably reverting back to the old GSZ-build posted earlier with a few 1-off changes in board and main... It just feels better post-bannings (CB/top IS back, and so is Stifle... enjoy your Squires).
About that build, I'm guessing the Inq's over TS's are because of the lifeloss from Dark Confidant being enough in a deck without Batterskull? You're still failing to hit cards like Jace TMS and NO... Kind of hurts. Is it worth it?
What did you end up playing against? What happened? I agree that choosing both because you can't decide is a bad idea but I have a hard time believing that the deck was bad, seeing as we're only a couple cards off and having opposite results.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
The deck was obviously not BAD, per se, but I played bad and I felt like i was back at the 45% against everything - also, I played without moxen, I think this is a huge difference even though it's just a few cards.
Losses were too SFM rock (-hymn +bitterblossom), SFM rock, hypergenesis (yyyyyyyeah...) and Deadguy Ale.
Let me put it this way: to ME this deck tries to do too many things, I need a list that is crystal clear in what it wants to do, I guess.
I feel like the options is SFM + 3-4 Vindicate, or GSZ + 3 SDT + a few (2) Jitte - and the latter fits me well.
Ive been testing with kyle miller's list from SCG Charlotte. Its really solid. Not running vindicate actually helps this deck, as there really arent that many necessary targets with jace not being that played anymore. Try it out. I think its much more fluid and less clunky. Stoneforge is unnecessary for us imo.
That is the list I've reverted to (at least until I've built Nic Fit Rock), Krondo9. :) It seems very simple and strong.
I disagree that Vindicate is useless, but in this build it is... IF you run SFM, you should run the full package of Vindicates.
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