Ok Berry, I don't disagree. Could you explain why though? I'm just curious as to why stoneforge and vindicate are syngergistic. Yeah I will most likely start playing Kyle Miller's list as well. My only changes are:
Board:
-2 Perish
-1 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
+1 Bojuka Bog (I cut it from the main to add a scrubland)
+1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Let me know what you think. If you have any innovative new changes to it as well, please post them too. I feel like Metamorph is just better than Perish in the NO matchup, since it doesnt kill your guys. Additionally, it is fetchable with tutor. I never liked thorn anyways, and I think Thrun is really solid against team america and blue in general.
Wow I really need to stop doubleposting
It's a matter of mana, the SFM-build can run on 1WB and win on 1W alot of games, therefore making a secondary LD-plan more viable with mass Wasteland + Vindicate. Meanwhile, the GSZ-build almost always requires at least 1GW and usually even more stable mana to be able to fullfill what it wants to do. What it does is harder to disrupt and IMO stronger, sure, but i just feel like Vindicate-LD-plan doesn't fit as well.
I have done no innovative new changes, yet. I swapped the Perishes for Phyrexian Metamorphs, just like you! They are great. Been boarding Thrun since day 1. I love Thorn of Amethyst, though. But I'm still not sure if I'm even going to go the E Tutor-plan in the SB.
Is Thrun really that great? I surely love this troll but isn't the 4cmc too much for the deck? He is great against CounterTop all the way but shouldn't we more concentrate on disrupting sword of the meek, thopter foundry and counterbalance in that MU? Once the situation is clear it shouldn't matter which creature hits the table...
Maybe Tower of the Magistrate in addition to the Pridemage in MB would be a better option since it fits the KotR toolbox and protects us from Batterskull or other equipments such as Vedalken Shackles or Sword of Body and Mind, or stopping opposing Umezawa's Jitte from getting counters. Just a wild guess on the Tower but since I expect a SFM meta all the way it would be a nice tool which really is a pain.
First there will be utter carnage AND THEN CAKE
If you have issues with CounterThopter, run more Deeds.
Deed will solve all issues involving that combo: Foundry is gone, and all tokens are gone. Deed will even sort out nasty Counterbalances. You can blow it up in response to 'flip the Top' and kill Top too. Pretty neat.
Thrun I'd never run more than once in the 75. Very slow and most of the time strictly worse than Elspeth.
Oh, I have no issues with Countertop unless I face the situation where he has a 2cmc and 3cmc spell on top of its libary, a active counterbalance and a top.... But in that situation almost every Deck is dead anyway. So I came to the conclusion that Thrun isn't really helpful here either, since we simply need disrupt against blue. Force them to use all their counters amd hopefully disrupt their lands/threats and you're almost through. Normally. So Thrun might not needed anyway?
And with the EE strategy in SB I thought that we could use one slot either for a second Metamorph, or even Tower of the Magistrate, against SFM package. I'm just guessing that Thorn of the Amethyst might not have any impact at all and can be cut.
With Innistrad we also have Nevermore, but don't know if this 1-of makes sense here.
First there will be utter carnage AND THEN CAKE
Thrun is perfectly fine against them. You have Vindicate, Deed, and hand disruption to try and deal with them before they lock you out. It's not like they can MM you again.
Plus, GSZ can "hide" true manacosts. Like, you can GSZ for total CMC 3 (the hardest value to CB against) and get Qasali. Thrun shines since most of the time, they're just derdling trying to find combo pieces. Thrun is a beating.
-Matt
i tested this deck today at my local store using a similar list to kyle millers list from SCG charlotte. I went 3-1 today and here are some things i noticed:
1. Jitte is insanely good and made me not miss vindicate at all. In any matchup where I got this out and swung, I won the game. It is just so powerful.
2. I might change 1 of my 3 sideboard Deeds to an EE. EE is amazing against 1-drop zoo. I am also considering mixing inquisition into the hand disruption package, but that has yet to be decided. EE means you dont have to take out moxes.
3. Green Sun is just awesome, and after testing with both Green Sun and Stoneforge, I have to say Green Sun is better. If anyone is trying to figure out what to play, I strongly recommend Kyle Miller's list.
Nonetheless, I will continue to test this list and will update accordingly with my results/findings.
Hello. I will going to SCG Indy this weekend and would like some input on my current list. I expect Countertop to be around and tweaked the deck to help in Game 1. Any suggestions would be very helpful.
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 vindicate
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 windswept heath
3 Wasteland
//sideboard
1 qasali pridemage
1 krosan grip
3 pernicious deed
2 extirpate
1 bojuka bog
2 go for the throat
2 engineered plague
1 scavenging ooze
2 pithing needle
I think the Vindicates should be 3rd Ooze and Top _or_ a Scavenging Ooze main, where I like him.
I think Maze of Ith is a must, always the strongest land in the list.
Not sure why you're running EP and Needles (OK, I guess you're running needles for SDT etc, but I just dislike the card).
Anarki, I agree with Berry that maybe Engineered Plague isn't so great right now even if Gobos do make a fierce comeback. Usually you need 2 in play to be truly effective, so I'd probably just cut them for another sweeper. Damnation, Wrath of God, Perish, or even Engineered Explosives (for 1-drop Zoo mostly) would all be decent options. If you still see NO Pro and Emrakul decks a fair amount, then you can opt for Phyrexian Metamorph in that slot as well. Pithing Needle, however, is a great catchall and should not be underestimated if used correctly in a deck like this. Also, I think you should keep in the Vindicates, but that's my two cents. Scavenging Ooze main doesn't sound like a bad idea though if you run into a lot of opposing Goyfs and Knights and whatnot. Otherwise the one in the sideboard seems fine. I like that your list isn't too heavy into Green Sun but still sports a few key toolbox items.
To defend a couple of the green Monsters that have been discussed:
Thrun may not be terribly necessary anymore, depending on how much Blue Control is kicking around, but he's better than you may think. I run 2 Elspeth in my main, and 1 Thrun in the board, and I will gladly play all 3 of them against any Blue deck slower than Merfolk. In the Fish matchup, in fact, he is arguably better than an Elpeth. Most importantly, he's very relevant in the Aggro matchups, specifically against Zoo.
Scavenging Ooze is also better than you may think at first glance, although in this case I think I'm mostly preaching to the choir. The ability to outrace opposing Goyfs and Knights while building your own perfect beast is nothing to sneeze at. Sure it uses 1 Green Mana to grow, but it's at our leisure, whenever the best moment is. Waiting until their EOT to do so (or just choosing to Top instead) is why this card is good. If it was at sorcery speed, different story. If Goyf wasn't so damn popular, also different story. Scavenging Ooze is my Goyf #5, and I don't even run Green Sun Zenith. It's well worth the sideboard slot as a flexible answer in many matchups.
anarki, If i were to make some small changes to your list, I would do:
-2 Tarmogoyf
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Green Sun Zenith
I think 3 is the best number for GSZ in all lists. It ensures that you always see one, usually. Plus, as SdeMatt said before, it can hide true mana costs, such as for qasali pridemage, which you definitely want to do against countertop, since 3 is tough to hit. And as your deck thins out, your GSZs dont, so you can maintain a constant flow of threats.
On the board, I am currently trying 1 EE, 2 Deed. EE just wrecks 1-drop zoo and is faster overall, while not forcing you to lose your mox diamonds (which can be important)
If you're actually going to run Plague, you might as well run Jitte instead. It's just better. 2 Jitte for 2 Plague seems more than fine if you ask me.
Please let us know how you do at SCG Indy though. Good luck!
I would like to discuss a little bit more about vindicates-in-zenithrock. I'm really not convinced if it's better playing with 3 of them (in the place of 2 jitte and 1 bird... Kyle Miller's list), or going for the standard 2 jitte + 1 of something zenitable (IMHO scanvenging ooze is the best choice for this slot).The motivations posted by berry are all valid, but I'm also not conviced at all. I make a brief list of the advantages and the disadvantages of the 2 possible choices:
Playing vindicate:
+ 7 removals MD
+ possibility of a LD plan
+ solution to a resolved planeswalker (JACE)
- higher mana curve
- more color intensive CC
Playing 2 jittes + 1 ooze (in my case)
+ GREAT against aggro deck (expecially tribal ones)
+ a strong way to deal with opponend graveyard MD, in spite of the only bojuka (with ooze MD, I would put it in my sideboard instead MD and I would add another fetch or something like that)
+ lower mana curve
- no way to deal with a resolved PW (I'm not considering attacking with creatures)
- Land denial plan based on wastelands only
- 4 removal MD (also less way to deal with artifacts and enchantment preboard)
I'd like to focus your attention also on the anti-synergy between jittes and deeds (vs aggro decks you probably would like to have both of them).
I really can't make a decision
Another problem I'm having is to side in-out with the deck. I'd like to know what are your choices in the most important MUs. In particular I'd like to know when you side moxen out.
Side out Moxen against any slower deck, such as control or mirror. Games against such decks take forever and initial speed doesn't pay off versus card disadvantage and possibility for bad top decks.
I can't really comment on Vindicate debate. I just love that card and would never have less than 4 in my mainboard. My metagame has a lot of different decks and it's good to have an "answer-all" card. Post-board you can easily swap it for cheaper removal or whatever you need.
James, you summed up my impression of Vindicate as well. In a nutshell, it covers a better function in a variety of matchups without losing power in the maindeck. While cards like Jitte and Ooze are great, they are slower responses to must answer situations (Jaces, Batterskull, etc), and they can sometime be a dead card in the wrong matchup. Vindicate is never dead, which is why I prefer it in my main over the other options. Currently I'm running 2 main with a single Explosives as the virtual 3rd Vindicate, as a nod to faster Aggro. I rely on my 3x Pernicious Deeds in the board in addition to some extra removal to deal with the decks that Jitte might be good against.
On that note, siding out Moxen is the first thing I do in any situation where I want the Deeds. Even in the faster matchups I would often rather grind game 2 out at a more even pace than trying to explode on turn 1. Since they know my deck by now most likely, it's less effective to surprise them with a 2-drop on the first turn, and the card disadvantage becomes more relevant after game 1. I'd rather 1-for-1 them as much as possible until I can hit a game-breaking sweeper in the midgame, rather than trying to dump my hand and try and regain tempo off a Dark Confidant. What else I side out depends on the matchup and how I'm feeling.
By not using vindicate, you can still hurt planeswalkers. I use pithing needle and phyrexian revoker sideboard, which allows me to get through w/ creatures. Ive just found the deck to play a lot faster and have a smoother curve without vindicate. I guess it depends on the Meta, since I'm not expecting Jace to see as much play now that misstep has been banned. I myself dont even use him anymore in my blue decks, because its tougher to stall long enough for him (vs. aggro/storm). Jitte can be good in more matchups than expected, even against decks like team america and storm. It gains you life vs. Storm, which is very relevant as their mana is not infinite for building storm. (Each hit requires 2 more cards on their part, in ANT/TES). Against Team, You can win Goyf wars, kill Vendlion Cliques, or stall tombstalker. Basically my point is, its not just good against aggro decks.
I've been testing this lately and its felt pretty good. I agree with the moxen theory, I almost always take it out if I bring in deed, as it is easily the worst topdeck in the mid/late game (except for pumping up a goyf)
Let's keep testing this though. I have been using a wishboard as well and I have to say it has been very good. Running a singleton Choke with a wishboard literally hoses several decks by itself.
@anarki
I would play the scavenging ooze over Birds in the Mainboard. I tested it finally and all can say is that people who stated it's very useful were absolutly right. You might win the KotR wars all the the time and it makes the matchup against dredge better in the first game, or even reanimator if they have a bad start...
About the Vindicate: I didn't miss them so far. Sure there are situations were it would be awesome to have a copy in your hand. But so far Jitte does a better job against all kind of decks.
As for the Sideboard I would say
-1 ooze (Going to main)
-2 plague
-1 pridemage
+2 Enlightened Tutor (I just love it and totally fits)
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph (against Reanimator, RUG, copy tarmogoyf... and EE can tutor it)
+1 Ethersworn Canonist (hello Combo ;)... also EE target)
Good luck on the SCG and have fun!
First there will be utter carnage AND THEN CAKE
To be honest I don't even own Jittes, though I have wanted to have access to them more than a few times in both Zoo and Junk. I will be picking up a pair in the near future, and will test them out if need be. Until it came up on this thread recently, I hadn't thought to use them as the deck is somewhat creature light, and I don't like having maindeck cards that can be dead on occasion (okay okay, except for Mox Diamond...). Then again though, I am running 2x Elspeth, so equipping Jitte is probably not too difficult in most games. If creature decks make a heavy comeback, I'll be sure to put them into the build to try out, but for now I still prefer Vindicate. Technically speaking Jitte can function on less lands, but it requires more time and more mana to get going usually, and it's conditional on having a creature ready. Often in a board stall I'd rather keep my Bob around than equip and swing into a blocker, even if it means Jitte gets active. I've seen what the card can do though, and I am aware of how powerful it can be. But think of it this way: would you rather be trying to equip and swing to gain 4 life against Storm on turn 4/5, or just Vindicate their only other land on turn 3/4 after you Wastelanded their first Dual away? In both situations you're gaining at least a turn on them, but I prefer the proactive approach. In creature matchups, it is a different story, as an active Jitte can represent multiple removal spells. I like keeping my build ready for a large tournament, even if it costs me a few percentage points in certain local metas.
I'll get my hands on some Umezawa's Sticks and see what they're really capable of. Of course then I'll be tempted to run that Sexy Kor Artificer that I've been avoiding for months now....
Sorry, but... what is EE? I assume it is not Engineered explosives, it seems to be like enlightened tutor, but not very sure.Originally Posted by Treehouse
Thanks.
I played Rock in the Misstep meta and placed 3rd, only losing to Stoneblade by bricking on land-drops (I literally drew 4 lands those 2 games, and each hand was a 2-lander. I didn't get there).
Had I drawn mana, I would have beat the eventual winner. Oh well. My breakers did suck, since one person I beat, dropped. Darn.
My new list is attempting to be quick and dirty. No fudging around with Chains anymore (although, that card was the nuts against Stoneblade, I swear they banned it so I couldn't play Chains profitably...). Balls to walls, loading up on Goyfs, Confidants, SFM, and Knights. Threat density + lots of removal.
4 Goyf
4 SFM
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
1 IoK/Duress
2 Equipment
3 Top
3 Vindicate
4 Swords
2 GSZ/Path (Path seems better in a faster meta)
Board:
1 Meta-Sword
2 Metamorph
2 Path
2 Deed
3 Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Bog
1 Tariff
If I'm running GSZ, I'd obviously run a GSZ board with Teeg and Ooze. Obv.
-Matt
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
