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Thread: [Deck] The Rock

  1. #41
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I've made some minor tweaks to my build. It's still the odd duck because it doesn't main Hymns, but they're in the board now. I've given up trying to board in Fish hate, I've kept the Dueling Grounds because of their broad use against aggro, but my build looks like this now:

    San Diego Rock

    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Knight of the Reliquary
    3 Qasali Pridemage

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Vindicate
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Pernicious Deed

    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Extirpate
    1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

    4 Wasteland
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Bayou
    3 Scrubland
    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Windswept Heath
    1 Forest
    1 Swamp
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Horizon Canopy
    1 Savannah

    //SB

    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Dueling Grounds
    2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Choke
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Extirpate


    We'll see how the changes work out for me. They're pretty minor, so I don't expect to see much difference except in post-board (MB changes are just an Extirpate for the 3rd Vindicate and an Edict for the 4th Plow. I'm weaker against NOPro and VV Survival, but with the exception of GW, Survival is pretty easy anyway. It's getting tougher to board against Survival though, because so much of my SB is for other decks but good tangentially against Survival decks. I mean really, there's nothing in my board that I *don't* want against U/G Vengevival.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
    Plow their Mom every chance you get!

  2. #42
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Looks good, Spikey. Selkie seems very good here, considering you've got a bit of Exalted going on.

    I also find a problem with what to board against Vengevival, because I want to see it all. Dueling Grounds, Extirpates, Swords/Path; what's not to like? It gets to the point where how much do I board about before I'm just a deck of answers with no real threats?

    -Matt

  3. #43

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    What I worry about more is Necrotic Ooze, other then Extirpate, what do we do? Should Runed Halo be seeing more S/B?

  4. #44
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I brought Rock to a 70+ person tourney today and took 2nd after 6 rounds of swiss.. Its too bad that the top 8 just decided to split the prizes as it was already 10pm and the top 8 matches haven't even started. Everyone was tired and wanted to go home as it was Monday the next day.

    In the top 8 was
    1 Dredge
    2 Rock
    7th Merfolks
    8th dreadstill

    So my immediate match was merfolks.. which I thought was slightly positive.. Not super favorable but slightly in my favor.

    Im not sure about the other decks placing but these are the rest of the top 8

    Affinity which raped survival decks all day
    enchantress
    zoo
    burn

    All in all, the only match up in the top 8 I was worried about was Burn . As I lost to the same player in the 4th round..
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So on to the list, I used a almost the same but a slightly different build...I opted for an acceleration less rock which I found quite enough for my taste. I don't think I need the acceleration, as for me I think it was a waste of space and could have better cards in its place but this is just my opinion. And I have my own reasons for not being happy with mox or birds/noble.

    The list
    23 Lands

    3 bayou
    3 scrubland
    7 fetch lands
    2 swamp
    1 plains
    1 karakas
    1 bojuka bog
    1 maze of ith
    4 wasteland

    14 creatures

    4 dark confi
    4 knight of the rel
    4 tarmogoyf
    2 kitchen finks

    3 thoughtseize
    2 inquisition of kozilek
    4 hymn
    4 stp
    4 vindicate
    2 EE
    3 sensei
    1 life from the loam
    1 ghastly demise

    SB
    2 dueling grounds
    1 pernicious deed
    1 enlightened tutor
    1 duress
    1 the tabernacle land
    4 extirpate
    1 ghastly demise
    1 choke
    3 edict

    Just to explain a little about my choices I initially removed 3 mox Diamonds and tried 3 birds, but I was never really satisfied hence I decided I don't need acceleration and tried the build without any and was quite happy that it was stable and never really seemed to need it. So I actually removed the 3 of them and replaced them with 2 ghastly demise and 1 loam at first..Loams purpose was to reuse wasteland and to avoid land screw,occasionally it was used to dredge when I find nothing useful with sensei. 2 ghastly demise, was put in to avoid early beaters. Which would slow some decks down at the least. These 3 slots were constantly changing, but the only real changes I was putting was the number of ghastly demise and loams. Then I only got to borrow 3 thoughtseize so I had to replace 1 with inquisition and was never happy with 1 piece so I just decided to go 2 inquisition and 3 thoughtseize. now for the other 2, it was either 2 ghastly or 2 loams. I couldn't decide.. so I just split them at the last minute before submitting my deck list.

    On to the report... I was quite tired during the games as I had a really bad hangover from drinking the night before, but still decided to play. I didnt take notes I was too lazy and too hung over to do any listing at all.. So Ill just post what I remember.

    Round 1 Vs Uw merfolks...
    G1 - He plays. Vial , and some merfolks.. He kills me as I don't get to find any removal.

    After this I couldn't decide if I should actually board in edicts.or not..
    board in -2 dueling grounds, 1 deed, 1 tutor, the tabernacle,and ghastly demise.
    board out- Loam,Vindicates and Bodjuka bog.

    G2 - I kill all his creatures and win with goyf
    I still can't decide if I need edicts. Anyway I tried them out.
    Board in- 3 d. edict
    board out- 3 hymn

    G3 -I destroy most of his lands, and land with wasteland, and vindicate. Kotr and goyf hold of the merfolks with me destroying his lands almost every turn he gets 2 lands left, then I fetch tabernacle and start killing his creatures with edicts and stp. Via sensei and Kotr.

    Thoughts on the match up. I think its slightly positive on my build. Just slightly. But I still don't know if I need those edicts. Probably not.

    2-1 Record
    1 win

    Round 2 Seems like the Gate with dark depths. Or maybe just depths. My memory of this was fuzzy as I think I mixed up g1 and 2..Im not sure if g1 was where I won or g2.. but anyway ill just make a guess.

    G1 - He wins, as I made a bad decision to vindicate a creature rather than destroy jitte. LEsson learned.. I was thinking he doesn't have much creatures. But was wrong.
    BOard in: I think I board in Pernicious, tabernacle and some edicts.
    Board out: I don't remember, Loam ghastly demise (hez creatures were black) and probably some other stuff.

    G2- I win via sensei and confidant. I got to discard first and took out his smother then dropped a confidant . I keep a karakas in my hand just incase he has those hexmage sheenigans.. and he did.. So karakas bids mirat lage farewell.
    No changes in the board

    G3. I play with a hand of 1 wasteland 1 maze of ith 1 sensei 1 confidant and some other random stuff.. This was actually a bad decision for me. As I should have known he has a 1st turn discard. So on his 1st turn he casts thoughtseize to strip away my top. I top deck a verdant catacombs
    and drop it fetch a basic swamp and cast my own discard nabbing his only creature control. 2nd turn drop a confidant, and start to win from then on. Vindicate most of his lands And I remember a situation where he had a hex mage and depths in play. and I vindicate hexmage to force him to sacrifice and then edict the 20/20 legend.

    THoughts on the match. I have no idea.


    Over all
    2 round wins
    4-2 stats

    Round 3 Rock Hes a friend and a cool guy. He runs a more aggro version of rock. Doran tombstalkers and such.No confidant however.
    G1. 1st turn ritual into sensei thoughtseize.. He couldnt handle stp and vindicates. Got mana screwed. He didn't run wastalands on his build and almost no way of destroying maze of ith.
    Board in: edict.
    Board out : I forgot. I didnt board out bog since he ran tombstalkers and I was hoping to at least delay him on that.
    G2: Almost same as G1 but this time I use sensei and Kotr to find cards I need to handle his aggressive creatures.

    Thoughts on the match.. None.. sensei rocks.

    Round 4 Burn, I had no idea what he was playing...

    G1: 1st turn thoughtseize and I saw it was burn.. IM like wow.. im in trouble.... I remove a bolt... turn to I discard PoP. turn 3 drop a finks...But it still wasnt enough. He top decks another Pop and I take 8 damage. I get burned to a crisp
    Board in: Duress, 4 extirpates, ghastly demise this is for those goblin guides just incase.
    Board out: Confidant and other stuff.. I dont remember.
    G2: I lose even if I stped my own goyf..

    Over all
    3-1
    4-4 stats

    Round 5: Dredge this one one of the top 10 eternal players in our country and has been playing dredge in vintage and legacy almost his whole career.

    G1: We both mull to 6. He doesn't play anything and passes the turn. I drop land thoughtseize and rip off a breakthrough. I see that he doesn't have lands.. Or any other discard outlet. I drop confidant next turn.. as he started to drop lands... as he gets to start dredeging .. I also start wasting his lands.. I top deck a bog and remove his graveyard. I have a goyf in play and confidant but couldnt attack because of stink weed imps. I didn't want to give him a dredger. Stinkweeds start eating at my life a point at a time, while confidant was also killing me slowly. I get a loam.. and start wasting and loaming my own bojuka bogs.It takes 2 turns to do but at least, I get a free tormods crypt every turn. I wasnt sure what he was trying to do at some point as he cast careful study and discards 3 cards instead of 2. He doesnt seem to count his damage as well from his city of brass and cephalid land. and even with my hang over I noticed this things. I wasn't taking notes on paper as I said I was hung over really bad, So I was leaning at looking at his paper for life scores.So Each time he did it I always reminded him, that he has damage from his lands and that he cant discard 3 cards.. He also tried to switch what he discarded from careful study during my turn and I didn't allow it. I wasnt sure if he was trying to cheat me or what.. anyway.. I won this match because of loam and bog.

    Side in : Except for chokle and ghastly demise, I side in everyting
    Side out :4 hymns 4 vindicates, ghastly demise dont know what else I took off.

    G2: I have an opening hand with extirpate and thoughtseize... It was enough for me...I think he discards something a dredger.. I discard his other spell. forgot what.. He dredges into bridge and other stuff.. On my turn I extirpate bridge... That should slow him enough... Next I drop confidant.. then the tabernacle land... The extirpate his ichorid then extirpate his narcomoeba... Thats enough for me..

    ROund 6: Zoo

    G1: I have nO stp or any creature control but I have sensei and 2 wastalands.. and 2 more non basics.. I think this is enough to slow him down..
    He drops wild nacatyl.. I waste... He drops land, attack for 3 and drops kird ape..next turn I waste... He drops another land attacks for 5.. Im at 12 now...I top deck another wasteland., I waste him another time... He starts attacking with his 2 1/1's and brings me down to 4. I look at sensei and see nothing I can work with. I don't want to go down to 3 because of a fetch, as I will put myself within burn range.But I will lose anyway if I don't fetch and find antyhing relevant. I already have a goyf in play but is just on defense.. I crack my fetch and go down to 3. I see a stp. and draw it as fast as I could.. Now at least I am safe. I get Kotr and he never finds another land.

    Note he was quite pissed off because I wasted him 3 x.. I told him it was just luck on my part.He didnt wan't to fetch a basic land because the odds of me getting a 3rd wastland was quite low.
    Board in: Ghastly demise, Deed, tutor, the tabernacle,duress and other stuff...
    BOard out: 1 thoughtseize, I think I took off a single vindicate or 2.. Don't remember much.

    G2: He plays first turn ape...And during my turn makes a joke and puts his land on the graveyard... But yeah he was right I did have 1st turn wastalnd again... I waste his land... He drops a 2nd land.. I waste it again the 2nd time. I have 1 tutor and 1 loam in hand still... He was quite annoyed again at wasteland... He gets a basic land the next time around...I was baiting confidants for burn.. as Soon as he gets 2-3 basics he drops 2 more nacatyls and at his end turn I fetch a EE.. which gets rid of his 3 creatures.. I vindicate his basic land.. and start loaming wastelands. I win after a while...

    5-1 record
    10-4 stats

    MVP was senseis divining top. Kotr. and the blessing from above, without it I would have never found the right cards at the right time.. I think the hang over made me think better..

    Notes on the deck itself Sensei is extremely important. Im quite happy with my build, its a little bit more controlling with the extra demise but I'm happy with it. Kitchen finks was so, so..I was still scared of Red all day.. Zoo and sligh or burn is still a scarey match up even with finks maindeck.

    If there was anything I would fix in the deck , it might be, 1 ghastly and 1 loam. It might end up as 2 loams or 2 ghastly but I am inclined with loams and I will probably move ghastly to the sideboard. Or another option is to remove finks maindeck and add in 2 ghastly demise...which I would also like to see. So the cards that will be constantly switch in my list for now will be.. 1 ghastly demise 1 loam and the 2 kitchen finks. They could go either way.

    Sideboard has to be fixed... I would probably look for some space for 2 gerrards verdict. Duress woould definitely become a verdict... I actually wanted to have 2 chokes on the Sb but there seems to be no space. But anyway Ill think of fixing my sideboard some other time..IM off to bed..

    On the tournament itself, aside from starting late it was great.. I would have liked to play the top 8 however, too bad it was soo late at night.

    Please do bear with the report as thats all I can remember..
    Last edited by f|i[p]; 12-05-2010 at 04:35 PM. Reason: typo

  5. #45
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    It was definitely better when I had Hierarchs in the main, but the way I look at it, they're Confidants #5 and 6 against Landstill or Countertop. They allow me to always stay ahead of my opponent on both mana and answers. Used to be 3 Selkies, but the 3rd one turned into a Choke because it's better against Fish and NOPro, especially now that I'm down to 2 Edicts main and can't be confident of winning game 1. Been having a run of bad games in terms of opening mana base. It's been very fragile lately, which is strange since I haven't changed the mana in some time. I'm almost tempted to go basic Plains instead of basic Forest and go 4/2/1 on Marsh Flats/Verdant Catacombs/Windswept Heath. There's really no good reason for the current split outside of a little decklist Feng Shui. The question is, is it a big enough difference for me to shell out the money to get different fetches? Other than when I need to fetch basics (which is almost never), it doesn't matter which fetch I'm playing.

    ZeinVoncy: I've found Ooze Survival to be tougher than U/G, but still not bad. They've got some discard which can strip an Extirpate out of your opening grip and so many mana critters that it's almost impossible to slow their mana down, but you should still be able to disrupt them long enough to draw out either Extirpate or Knight of the Reliquary. Knight -> Bog is only effective against them once, because after that they'll be sure to get Shriekmaw before attempting to Ooze out. But while they have a ton of mana, Fauna Shaman shouldn't be a threat against you, so it's only the actual Survival you have to worry about. They generally don't run more than 1 copy each of Triscuit or Devourer, so you can Extirpate or Bog one (or both) away and not have to worry about Ooze anymore. Unless Ooze tapping for 1 of any color scares you. Of course, I run Extirpate main, so I have a fairly decent matchup game 1, and game 2 I bring in Aven Mindcensor which absolutely wrecks them. They pack 1 removal spell. ONE. You drop Mindcensor on turn 3, all they can do is drop mana critters and cry.

    I'll take Mindcensor over Halo any day of the week, as Mindcensor is far better against storm. You can name Tendrils or Belcher against storm decks, but they'll just search out a way to bounce it while going off. They're not going off until turn 3 anyway, and you can slow them beyond that with some early discard, meaning that they're going to be spending the first few turns trying to sculpt a hand while you're tearing it apart. If you don't follow it up with a quick threat, they will eventually get there, but if you're running a Nelson-style list, turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Mindcensor is pretty much GG. Between the discard and the land destruction, you can keep them off balance long enough to win with almost any clock. Mindcensor in response to a Doomsday will probably force the concession right there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
    Plow their Mom every chance you get!

  6. #46
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Congrats, Flip!

    If you're worried about Burn (either from Zoo or Mono Red Burn), Leyline of Sanctity is your best friend!

    All in all, congrats. What kind of swag did you take home?

    -Matt

  7. #47
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Well as for what I brought home.. it was mostly cash.. since people didn't want to play out the top 8... I really wanted to play it out, but alas, it was too late... And majority wins.. since I seem to be the only person who wanted to play it out... I actually wanted to put sanctity on the sideboard before the tourney started but I had no one to borrow from, maybe as 2 pieces, but I think gerrards verdict might also be a good idea on the side...

    I seem to have my sideboard really tight right now.

    My new Sb after the tournament

    4 extirpate
    3 edict
    1 tabernacle
    1 choke
    1 pernicious deed
    2 dueling grounds
    2 gerrards verdict
    1 enlightened tutor

    Things I want to add in... I guess its either leyline or gerrards verdict for me...I still have to look for good options vs red. I wanted also to add another choke to help with control, but I never really got to test against any blue based control deck.

    Just to ask your opinions, if you had edicts on your sb, would you side them in and take out hymn to tourach for merfolk? I was also thinking about choke... Is it actually good against merfolk? I never sided them in . Vial was one of my reasoning.

  8. #48
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Yes, Choke is good against the Fish. Vial is relatively easy to deal with and if they're only dropping 1 creature a turn and can't effectively use Coralhelm Commander, you're in good shape. The tough part is that both choke and Dueling Grounds can be hit by Hibernation and with so much VV in the format, they're bound to be packing 4. Those are our best 2 answers to them and it hits KotR and goyf as well. I haven't figured out an answer to that riddle yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
    Plow their Mom every chance you get!

  9. #49
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I think the best thing against Merfolk is just bringing in as much removal as you can. I don't like Edict much, but if it's all you have in your SB... Choke hits Merfolk pretty hard too. They only have 4 Vials in their deck after all, you should have a whole lot more ways of removing it.

  10. #50

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Hello everyone. I haven't been able to test my list that much. My very limited testing makes me believe that hierarch is better than diamond in most builds. I would like some help with my list though if you guys wouldn't mind.

    [cards]
    4 knight of the reliquary
    4 tarmogoyf
    4 dark confidant
    1 eternal witness
    2 qasali pridemage
    3 noble hierarch.

    3 sensei's divining top
    4 inquisition of kozilek
    4 hymn to tourach or verdict (not completely sure yet)
    4 swords
    4 vindicate

    22 lands

    Edit: Flip i was wondering if you had tried experimenting with a nantuko monastery; or if you could even find the space to fit it in.
    Last edited by Rainbow Maker; 12-07-2010 at 06:45 AM.

  11. #51

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Actually I run Nantuko Monastery, I find it to be another aggressor that's handy time to time, if not, its at least wasteland material that keeps the focus off my duals.
    Also as a side note, I'll be replacing my Volrath's Stronghold with Maze of Ith, putting stronghold to the s/b.
    Last edited by ZeinVoncy; 12-07-2010 at 11:23 AM.

  12. #52

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Right now with my list i'm trying 2 loams which warranted the maindeck inclusion stronghold... Maze of Ith is amazing. keeping goyfs at bay. It's really nice giveing your creatures vigilance. Extremely nice when later you just tutor a land up with knight. Somewhere in my manabase i run try to fit nantuko in. He really just seems so powerful, especially when he can be recurred.

  13. #53

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I use to use Life from the Loam but I just found it slowing me down. Most of the time I'd dredge away some utility I could use at the time. I best use for LftL would be preventing life loss from Dark Confidant.
    Holding a semi-lock just did not justify keeping LftL in my experience.

  14. #54
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbow Maker View Post

    Edit: Flip i was wondering if you had tried experimenting with a nantuko monastery; or if you could even find the space to fit it in.
    In all honesty I was pretty satisfied with 23 lands, and 4 wastelands.. The utility lands I use which mainly are bog, ith , karakas,wasteland are all interchangeable. So if you would fit in a nantuko monastery somewhere in the list, I guess I would replace one of these cards first as your first choice.

    Ith is too amazing to take off. So I would probably replace karakas or bog first as my first choice if I were to put nantuko monestary in. It provides colorless mana, but since you are running noble I guess its ok.

    I have never really tested nantuko monestary however. It might be worth testing if you find yourself lacking on beaters..

    Remember I don't run mox diamonds or noble/birds on my list.

  15. #55

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Right now i'm testing roughly 4 or 5 different versions of the list. Most of the testing is assuming Survival is getting axed. I hope it does. The possible locks are only 1 reason i'm testing loam. Instead of running diamonds or hierarch i'm running loam. Which still leaves 1 spot in the place of a tempoish cards. I don't think a recurring wastelands, putting witness on top with stronghold, recurring maze of ith, bringing back nantuko or bog are weak plays.

    I think flip has more experience with loam in this deck, but I wouldn't think you would aggressively loam each turn. unless you were trying to "dig" for something. of make knight bigger. i think it's more like i have a wasteland or 2 in the graveyard, i can strip mine some lands. right now in the list with loam i believe i am using
    4 wasteland
    1 bojuka bog
    1 maze of ith
    1 stronghold

    I think i might try 3 wastes and a monastery. i'm post my results after some testing

  16. #56

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbow Maker View Post
    I think flip has more experience with loam in this deck, but I wouldn't think you would aggressively loam each turn.
    How would you know that?
    Do you know how long I had LftL in my deck?
    How much testing I underwent before deciding to ditch it?
    I've tested many cards before doing changes with this deck, hell, I'm STILL running Desolation Angel.
    I also never stated that you would aggressively loam every turn, in that case, I should be posting in a Dredge forum instead of Rock. . . but hey, what do I know?

  17. #57

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy View Post
    How would you know that?
    Do you know how long I had LftL in my deck?
    How much testing I underwent before deciding to ditch it?
    I've tested many cards before doing changes with this deck, hell, I'm STILL running Desolation Angel.
    I also never stated that you would aggressively loam every turn, in that case, I should be posting in a Dredge forum instead of Rock. . . but hey, what do I know?
    I wasn't regarding to you first of all. I was talking about myself. Actually Trisomy 21 aggressively loams quite a bit. dredge is a combo deck more than anything else. Cards aren't always good in everyones build. look at dredge lists. some run led. if i added led to a list without led it would perform horribly

  18. #58

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    My mistake and apologies, sounded like it. Could be my bitter mood due to bad day.

    Let us know if you get better results, mayhap I over looked something or don't know of some unknown tech.

    Again, sorry for the aggressive post. >.>

  19. #59

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    No, don't worry about it. I can easily see how my post came of as rude. i'll pos some results in a while

  20. #60
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I'm going to be doing several hours of Rock testing today, I hope to try different tech, builds, etc. I'll let you all know how it goes.

    So, I noticed Flip has his own name for his Rock deck, San Diego Rock. I like the name to be honest. Do any of your builds have "special" names?

    I've called my build "Alcatraz" for the longest time (you know, The Rock) but doesn't anyone have anything else besides Dark Horizons/Junk?

    -Matt

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