[Deck] UGB River Rock (formerly Intuition-Thresh)

[AggroSteve]

B/R zombies?, what did the list look like, a friend of mine would like to build a zombie deck, and i would like to help him make a decent one but i could use some help

would you mind sending me a PM with the decklist? as well as the nyxathid deck if you mind^^
i am allways intrested in some funny rogue-looking decks^^

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Sorry for the late reply. I've been away again.

i have to say i really like this deck, and i can really understand why unearth would be such a blast

right now i even feel like discarding my team america for this one, as it looks so much more fun

Thanks, that's really heartening!

i have a few questions though:

what about dismember or other spotremoval like GftT or smother instead of snuff out

The reason that I love Snuff Out is that it's a free removal spell in a deck that's intensely mana hungry. You're more than welcome to use something else, but Snuff Out has really stood the test of time here. It can also hit artifacts, which is quite relevant with Affinity making its comeback. There's no doubt that sometimes that four life is a huge hit, but the number of games that's affected negatively is vastly inferior to the number of games that were positively affected by Snuff Out.

I have, however, started testing 2x Darblast in the the SB, and it's been pretty amazing so far (see the tournament report below). I'm not sure that I can fit them into the main deck, though. Maybe one at most.

is there an alternative for NO into progenitus?, i havent got these cards and right now i cannot efford them, but i would have the option to build in Dark Dephts, but the problem with Dark Depths would be that if you want to intuition for the kill you would allready need one of the combopieces in hand or in play, or is there a way/card-combination for intuition so i would not allready need one combo-piece?

Dark Depths is an interesting alternative that I haven't tested, but I'd worry about having too many Depths in the deck, and thereby screwing up the land drops, which are already balanced on a razor's edge. I guess you could go with 3x Hexmage and 1x Depths. But NO-Progenitus is really just vastly superior. One option is just to maindeck the Deeds instead/until you can get the cards: that's what the deck looked like before the addition of NO and Progenitus, and it worked very well. Plus, the extra removal is quite handy, and really PWNS Affinity.

Valet de Coeur, Montreal?

Hey! Vincent D. here. That Nyxathid deck was mine and I did finish first beating ANT 2-1 in the finals. I remember those games when I made you work for that NO. I don't show up to the weeklies at the Valet often but I always bring something weird and top3 (I think I got first place 2 weeks before that with B/R Zombies). I'll try to find you next time I show up!

Hey Vincent. You absolutely destroyed me. :)

But then, that's to be expected. Pox/BW Junk decks are a pretty hard matchup for my deck. Hope to see you soon!


[b]Report from last night's tournament:[b]

22 People, and I piloted the deck into a tie for first place. Third after breakers. Won two packs of M12, neither of which contained anything of note. But free packs are free! The only change to the decklist I've been piloting for the last while concerns the SB: -2 Pithing Needle, +2 Darkblast (there have been a ton of NO RUG decks lying around lately, and although that matchup is pretty good, Darkblast is quite helpful).

Round 1 - Rogue GW - 2-0 - These games weren't even close. To be fair, the decks had rather mismatched power-levels. G1 I went to town with double-Goyf (5/6) beatz. G2, a turn 3 Progenitus seals the deal.

Round 2 - The Rock - 2-1 - G1, I clear the board with Snuff Out and recur it with three Witnesses. Triple-Witness beatz end up winning the game. G2, I draw no green mana and end up folding to Stoneforge Mystic and equipment. G3 is essentially a repeat of G1, with triple-Witness beatz (recurring a combination of removal and Force of Will) sealing the deal. We play a G4 for fun, and my Progenitus seals the deal.

Round 3 - Affinity - 2-1 - G1 is extremely close. I'm one mana short of casting Punishment for 0 and winning, and two life short of surviving an 11/2 Ornithopter's attack (I killed one with Snuff Out, but didn't draw a second one) and winning with Punishment. G2, I set up a Goyf wall (replete with two Hierarchs) and follow it up with a Deed. I turtle behind Deed for a while, allowing permanents to build up, then pop it for 0, Snuff Out Myr Enforcer during his attack phase and block the Frogmite, and start smashing face against an empty board with Goyf. G3, my opponent opens with Memnite, Phyrexian Walker, Ornithopter, and casts another Memnite on his next turn. I wipe the board clear with Darblast, and then beat face. Snuff Out takes out the next creature to come into play, and I win handily. We play a G4 for fun, and he dumps his entire hand on his first turn. Darkblast wipes out the creatures and Punishment wips the board, double-Goyf beats face, and then I power out a Progenitus for the win. No surprises here, though: this deck is massively favoured against Affinity. Massively.

[TraxDaMax]

Hi,

I have been goldfishing this deck, since it seemed pretty cool to pick up,
but for some reason, and I can't really see why in the list counting cards, I end up not being able to cast FoW alot.. :/
Doesn't make much sense, but I guess I'm doubting the number of blue cards a little.
Possibly I just had really bad luck or something though.

[AggroSteve]

i think 18 is too few actually, i prefer having at least 20 blue cards to be able to cast force, i had this problem with other blue decks as well, only problem here is what cards to cut and what cards to add to up the blue-card-count

i for my part would try to fit in some ponder as i absolutely love that card as it is a awesome turn 1 play IMO, but i really have no idea what to cut, maybe a maelstrom pulse and something else?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Tied for first again last night (third after breakers... again) with the same list as last time. The start of school took its toll: only 20 players this time. About five of them were piloting Affinity... I may just exchange the two MD Pulses for two Deeds as a (purely) metagame decision next time. We'll see.


R1 - Affinity - 2-1: G1 is over quite quickly: Punishment for 0 wipes the board and a huge Goyf swings home. G2 comes to a 20-minute standstill about ten minutes in thanks to his Etched Champion. I keep returning and cycling Unearth and Brainstorm in the hopes of drawing any piece of removal (I have 13 pieces for this game and have seen none all game; I've also been Extirpated three times (none of it removal), so my deck is quite thin). Recurring Kitchen Finks bring me back from the brink of death (5 life with just a Hierarch in play, versus his Champion, Frogmite, and something else) to stall-worthy territory (I end up recurring it twice more and casting a second, for a total of 8 life gained). He topdecks Cranial Plating and I'm one life short of surviving the Champion. Great game. G3 is also over quite quickly (good thing, too: there were just 5 minutes left in the round): I Deed everything on the board, and proceed to recur it several times and finally resolve Progenitus.


R2 - Combo Elves - 2-0: G1 is over quite quickly too: he has three mana, a Visionary, a Heritage Druid, and a Wirewood Symbiote. He casts Summoner's Pact for Priest of Titania, which he casts. I allow it to resolve, end the turn by Snuffing Out the Symbiote, and then Snuffing Out the Priest (yay, free removal!). During my turn, I draw another piece of removal and destroy the Druid for fun. Anyway, he can't pay Pact's upkeep cost. G2 is a little more drawn out; I have a Deed, Stronghold, and Witness in play (along with five other sources of mana), and so recur Deed five or six times and, in combinaton with Snuff Out and Force of Will, that allows me to survive three Glimpses. I eventually build up enough board presence to win.


R3 - Rogue RG Tokens/Combo - 2-0: G1 is once again over quite quickly--T3 Progenitus FTW. G2 also ends fairly quickly, although it involves me drawing and casting a couple Snuff Outs and Pernicious Deed. We played two more for fun (I didn't really understand how the deck worked): he won the next game with some early and massive tokens (thanks to some red enchantment), and then removal won me the fourth.

Hi,

I have been goldfishing this deck, since it seemed pretty cool to pick up,
but for some reason, and I can't really see why in the list counting cards, I end up not being able to cast FoW alot.. :/
Doesn't make much sense, but I guess I'm doubting the number of blue cards a little.
Possibly I just had really bad luck or something though.

Thanks for your interest! While there are definitely times when that happens since the deck does have a fairly low blue count, and it's quite tightly packed. In my experience (I have quite literally played thousands of games with the deck) it's very infrequent though, and Witness goes a long way to ensuring that it doesn't happen. To be fair, however, you're often faced with the choice of pitching something good or allowing something to resolve, and that's where familiarity with the deck (and what you're up against) comes into play.

i think 18 is too few actually, i prefer having at least 20 blue cards to be able to cast force, i had this problem with other blue decks as well, only problem here is what cards to cut and what cards to add to up the blue-card-count

i for my part would try to fit in some ponder as i absolutely love that card as it is a awesome turn 1 play IMO, but i really have no idea what to cut, maybe a maelstrom pulse and something else?

IMO there's really nothing to cut on either front. You could perhaps try getting away with Phyrexian Metamorph for Kitchen Finks, but the loss of the Finks is going to sting: they complement the rest of the deck extremely well, whereas Metamorph doesn't necessarily. I suppose it's worth a try, though: the loss of the life gain may just be balanced out by the gain of some massive creature in the opponent's deck/an extra Goyf/Hierarch/whatever. I'd be very interested to hear your results on that front.

As for Ponder... I really don't think there's room. Previous incarnations of the deck ran it (and preferred it to Brainstorm), but I just can't see where to fit it now. And really, on the first turn, Hierarch is the better play anyway (because it speeds our development, but also because Ponder, like Brainstorm, becomes exponentially better as the game goes on). Cutting a Pulse is a serious mistake: it leaves you exponentially more vulnerable because it scuppers the different Intuition piles that you can form with three. Similarly, cutting a card willy-nilly is likely to have the same effect. If you're deadset on trying it, then perhaps three could be made to fit into Intuition's slot. The downside, of course, is that the deck then loses a really fantastic tutor that sets up a massive number of plays in exchange for a fantastic cantrip that will hopefully get lucky but gets countered by Mental Misstep. Again, feel free to try it and let me know how it goes. Thanks again for the interest.

[AggroSteve]

i will be trying to put up a list with hexmage dephts combo, and i will probably cut the hierarchs in that case simply because the manadevelopement of the deck will not absolutely require a hierarch for a turn 3 NO (specially since i will be playing a different combo :P)

in place of hierarch i will be playing a bit more lands and probably a few ponder, if i have the place to fit them in

right now my thoughts came up with a list somewhat like this:


20-21 lands (i prefer having more lands than manadorks, probably due to playstyle as well)
lands included are: 1 wasteland, 1 volrath's stronghold, 1-2 dark dephts, 1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

creatures

4x tarmogoyf
3x eternal witness
3x vampire hexmage
2x kitchen finks
1x shriekmaw

spells

4x brainstorm
2x ponder
4x mental misstep
3x daze
4x force of will
3x intuition
1x unearth
1x life from the loam
1x sword of light and shadow (would be awesome as intuition target together with witness and unearth)
3x snuff out (going with this one initially, and later trying something else as well)
3x maelstrom pulse / pernicious deed (i probably would prefer deed, or maybe some combination of engineered explosives and crime/punishment or even putrefy as my hexmages can allready take care of planeswalker,.... will have to test every option here)

would be 61 card (with 20 lands - only 1 dark dephts)

my sideboard probably would differ greatly from yours

one thing i was allways wondering... why do you have chalice of the void in your sideboard, what do you board them against, and what do you take out?

@ Goaswerfraiejen:
what are your thoughts on the list i will going to build? any suggestions, critique?, i want to know all your thoughts on it, since i would think your are the grandmaster of this deck^^

[Goaswerfraiejen]

So sorry for the late reply. As the term begins again, and as I start teaching again, my free time dwindles. Plus--and more importantly--I was without internet for the past couple of weeks.

First, just wanted to say that I played in the weekly tournament again. I came 11/25 this time, my worst finish yet--quite a few people went 3-0 (six, I think), and I went 2-1, so... yeah. The deck was the same as usual, but I exchanged the two Pulses for the SB Deeds in anticipation of more Affinity and Elves. Briefer report than usual:

R1 - Cloudpost - 2-1: I lost G1 handily, won G2 easily with a turn three Progenitus, and G3 dragged on for a while--which is bad, since Cloudpost gets exponentially stronger as the game goes on. I was ultimately unable to deal with an indestructible Eldrazi.

R2 - Rogue UR Control - 2-0: I won these games handily. The first few turns were counter-wars, and at one point by turn two we'd collectively played four Missteps and three FoWs. But my opponent had no mid-game juice, so I ended up just playing creatures and winning.

R3 - GW Maverick - 2-0: My opponent was mana-screwed G1, so that was too bad. G2 I won quite easily with a fourth-turn Progenitus. We went on to play three more, of which my opponent won two (I was manascrewed myself one game). On the whole, however, I felt completely in control, and Progenitus was always lurking around a corner to save me if things were starting to look rough.

i will be trying to put up a list with hexmage dephts combo, and i will probably cut the hierarchs in that case simply because the manadevelopement of the deck will not absolutely require a hierarch for a turn 3 NO (specially since i will be playing a different combo :P)

in place of hierarch i will be playing a bit more lands and probably a few ponder, if i have the place to fit them in

Sounds good. You could always try BoP, too, but more lands is definitely a good idea--especially since Depths eats up a couple slots. Your list looks pretty solid to me.

one thing i was allways wondering... why do you have chalice of the void in your sideboard, what do you board them against, and what do you take out?

Chalice is a nice catch-all against combo (zero is helpful, while one is backbreaking) that doubles as effective Burn hate (set at one, obviously, it cripples Burn). It also works well against Zoo, but it's kind of overkill in that matchup, since the removal does such a great job on its own. I do occasionally like to take out Snuff Out for it, so as to help negate the Zoo player's burn plan.

Against combo and Burn, I just side out my removal for it (Snuff Out first, Pulse last).

@ Goaswerfraiejen:
what are your thoughts on the list i will going to build? any suggestions, critique?, i want to know all your thoughts on it, since i would think your are the grandmaster of this deck^^

Your compliments are greatly appreciated. ^^

I think that the Hexmage combo has real potential. One advantage is that Planeswalkers cease to be such a concern, which frees up some resources. I wonder if playing Phyrexian Metamorph might open up some more interesting avenues for the deck than Kitchen Finks can, however. I'm definitely very curious to hear how it's working out for you.


One last thing before I go... I'm really looking forward to being able to play Skaab Ruinator. I think that this deck is perfect for it... not only do I frequently have three creatures to feed it (especially as games drag on, which is when this card shines), but with Intuition, Unearth, and the ability to dredge, this deck is frequently in a position to really abuse it. I will start by playing a single copy and see where it goes (probably a 1-1 split with Finks; one janky alternative would be Golgari Brownscale, whose dredge could also help). At any rate, the ability to easily tutor up and play such a huge creature in the mid and late games is amazing for this deck. It's also a fantastic answer to Perish.

[AggroSteve]

when i first read skaab ruinator i thought it was another tombstalker, cause i misread it and missed the word creature^^

anyway he sounds quite nice, specially for my version, as i have a it a bit easier to get creatures in the grave, but anyway, one or two creatures are surely allways in our grave, so tutoring with intuition for one skaab ruinator and maybe 2 other creatures like hexmage which i can easily get into my grave, i get a 5/6 flying out of it, well not as strong as a 20/20, but not as conditional as well, and the fact that only white removal is really effective against him, gives him another thumps up, well just like for the 20/20 ^^
i really like him and he would definitely be awesome since we can target him with unearth as well and he would give the deck more power for the tempogame we can also run, as he allmost works like tombstalker (which i also thought of including at some point but not being able to use unearth on him made him a no-go)

wow on second thought he would allmost be awesome with first intuition pile of witness, unearth and Skaap Ruinator (oh damn no, by then you will not have enough creatures in grave, so forget this one)

one thing i was thinking about in my list is the one of Sword of Light and Shadow

what are your thoughts on it?

a friend of mine was positively thrilled by the list i showed him, and found intuition to be insanely good with witness, unearth, loam, wasteland
that friend of mine did not like the idea of the sword of light and shadow though, and i have to admit, i do not have that many 1cmc spells in the deck, and he said he would think the 3rd ponder would be of better use
now i am a bit sceptical, as i have to say i really like ponder 1st turn, and i dislike playing brainstorm on 1st turn, because it gets so much stronger as the game goes on, so having a 3rd ponder wouldn't be a bad idea
i am thinking of replacing snuff out for GftT just because it can hit confidant and tombstalker and Abyssal Persecutor (a friend of mine runs The Gate), and snuff out just sucks against black creatures, just like shriekmaw does

another card i was thinking about was ancestral visions, did you try that card allready, lately it gets so much play and that card is actually quite powerfull as well, only problem is that later in the game it sucks (so i think i will prefer ponder, ergo cardselection over cardadvantage)

what do you think about it

soon the list will be complete, only cards missing are the intuitions and maelstrom pulse, but i would probably run deed over it anyway (and the real duals :(, but i will get them as i get some more money), and than i will tell you everything i found out with my list with testings, in the meantime i have to prox the for testings (if i got time, allready studying for university again, even if it does not start until oktober)

[The Treefolk Master]

Yesterday, I acquired my first non-blue dual land, a Bayou! I'm no 2 Bayous from the standarized deck list. Weeeeeeh!

How has Daze been testing for you? It's been a bit underwhelming for me sadly :(, although I don't have SO many games under my belt. Yet.

[AggroSteve]

mental misstep got banned!!!

so what would the list have to change to still be viable

IMO misstep was the best counter in the format (at least fo a while^^) so losing it could seriously hurt this deck as well as any other blue deck using it

adding 4th daze and some spell snares or spell pierces could be a possible answer, but the meta will definitely shift to faster aggro and to faster combo, so i really do not know what will happen with this deck, as i got really not much expierience with it

what do you guys think??

[AggroSteve]

mental misstep got banned!!!

so what would the list have to change to still be viable

IMO misstep was the best counter in the format (at least fo a while^^) so losing it could seriously hurt this deck as well as any other blue deck using it

adding 4th daze and some spell snares or spell pierces could be a possible answer, but the meta will definitely shift to faster aggro and to faster combo, so i really do not know what will happen with this deck, as i got really not much expierience with it

what do you guys think??

[The Treefolk Master]

The deck played Ponder in the pre-Misstep era, so we could start by trying that out.

Goblins are making a comeback, so I don't think Daze is the way to go.

Therefore, at first I'll be testing:

-3 Misstep :(
+2 Ponder

Going down to 60 cards.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Yesterday, I acquired my first non-blue dual land, a Bayou! I'm no 2 Bayous from the standarized deck list. Weeeeeeh!

How has Daze been testing for you? It's been a bit underwhelming for me sadly :(, although I don't have SO many games under my belt. Yet.

Congrats! Daze is, power-wise, one of the weaker cards in the deck, but it's also a pretty necessary evil. It was especially important versus combo pre-MM, and now that MM is banned and the format has sped up, Daze becomes that much more important again: it's an easy answer to T1 plays, be they Vial, Lackey, Brainstorm, or whatever. It's also half-decent (but still entirely irrelevant, like every other deck) against High Tide, since it usually eats an island and so messes with combat math.

mental misstep got banned!!!

so what would the list have to change to still be viable

IMO misstep was the best counter in the format (at least fo a while^^) so losing it could seriously hurt this deck as well as any other blue deck using it

adding 4th daze and some spell snares or spell pierces could be a possible answer, but the meta will definitely shift to faster aggro and to faster combo, so i really do not know what will happen with this deck, as i got really not much expierience with it

what do you guys think??

Well, the deck was certainly viable pre-MM, but it did struggle at times with the speed of the format. IIRC, I dropped Ponder for MM; at this point, the only viable solution seems to be to replace MM with Spell Pierce. I think I'll just MD 3 instead of upping Daze to 4. I may also cut Skaab Ruinator from 2 to 1, and thereby make room for another counterspell of some sort; I don't know yet, I haven't had enough time to re-familiarize myself with the speed of the format (Ruinator is obviously less awesome in a very fast environment, but could be awesome if Countertop sees a resurgence--and I still think it's worth having as at least a 1-of).

The deck played Ponder in the pre-Misstep era, so we could start by trying that out.

Goblins are making a comeback, so I don't think Daze is the way to go.

Therefore, at first I'll be testing:

-3 Misstep :(
+2 Ponder

Going down to 60 cards.

Well, Daze is actually decent against Goblins, since it allows us to save Snuff Out and Force of Will for things other than Lackeys and Vials, although I do ultimately side it out for more removal. You definitely won't go wrong with Ponder, but it may be possible for us to find a more aggressive option out there somewhere instead. Maybe the way to go is to replace Daze with Spell Pierce or Spell Snare altogether, and to find something else for MM (perhaps another creature or control element)... I'm not entirely sure. Two thoughts, however:

*Even if NO RUG goes down in popularity, Darkblast is still a handy tool against Goblins and UW (but not if Counterbalance comes back).

*Skaab Ruinator is very good against Goblins. It's slow, but you're guaranteed to be able to cast it. On the other hand, Kitchen Finks is also very good against Goblins, especially since it can still block Piledriver after an Incinerator.

I'll have to give things a big think again. I guess the next weekly tournament will be an important testing ground; too bad, I kinda wanted to play Zoo again at some point. Let me know your own thoughts.

[AggroSteve]

i think i will be trying the following as i am allready running 2 ponder

-4 misstep :(
+3 spell snare
+1 ponder

maybe something like this

hopefully it will work fine^^, though i will miss mental misstep

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Part of the problem is that Natural Order suddenly becomes more vulnerable to cards like Spell Pierce, which is why I'm concerned about Spell Snare, since it won't stop opposing countermagic. But whatever, we'll see.

I should have added to the post above: Suddenly, missing a Bayou or two becomes less of a big deal, I think. Just run an extra basic or two (Forest, followed by Swamp) instead. At least it will help dodge Goblins' control elements a little.

[AggroSteve]

my point in using spell snare was, that i think it is the counter coming the nearest to Mental Misstep, being good on the draw, countering the most important spells in legacy (tarmogoyf, dark confidant, stoneforge mystic, counterbalance if it comes back, goblin piledriver as well^^, sylvan library which has seen more and more play lately, and tons of other very good stuff)

i think the question will be if spell snare > spell pierce, or the other way around, which i think will initially depend on your meta, until we adapt again to the metashift and get a more refined list

with my list i will probably have less to think about spell spierce since i am not using natural order, but intuition may suffer a bit
and thanks to my 2/1 first striker, i may not even have such a bad goblin-matchup, but zoo probably will make me cry a bit

[AggroSteve]

i was thinking more and more about spell snare, it would be both awesome on the play and on the draw

ok here to what i was thinking

on the play:

we can 1st turn ponder/hierarch + daze/force of will (lest assume we use daze)
we can 2nd turn spell snare (if previously used hierarch even brainstorm for it)

on the draw: 1st turn spell snare countering their major threat (confidant, SFM, Hymn, ......), thus leaving us with a better position

so in practice we can still do allmost the same things with spell snare compared to Mental Misstep, just with less lifeloss, but a minor tempoloss compared to MM

so for now i will definitely use spell snare over spell pierce as it handles more turn 2 plays than spell pierce
but the statement from my previous post of spell snare vs. spell pierce will be a meta-decision will still apply, i think spell snare would probably be better in a stronger aggro-midrange meta, and spell pierce will be stronger in a midrange-control-combo meta

so i think your MD decision for your countersuite will come to a) preference and b) your meta

what do you guys think?

[AggroSteve]

i was thinking more and more about spell snare, it would be both awesome on the play and on the draw

ok here to what i was thinking

on the play:

we can 1st turn ponder/hierarch + daze/force of will (lest assume we use daze)
we can 2nd turn spell snare (if previously used hierarch even brainstorm for it)

on the draw: 1st turn spell snare countering their major threat (confidant, SFM, Hymn, ......), thus leaving us with a better position

so in practice we can still do allmost the same things with spell snare compared to Mental Misstep, just with less lifeloss, but a minor tempoloss compared to MM

so for now i will definitely use spell snare over spell pierce as it handles more turn 2 plays than spell pierce
but the statement from my previous post of spell snare vs. spell pierce will be a meta-decision will still apply, i think spell snare would probably be better in a stronger aggro-midrange meta, and spell pierce will be stronger in a midrange-control-combo meta

so i think your MD decision for your countersuite will come to a) preference and b) your meta

what do you guys think?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

This is a tad janky, but I wonder if Condescend might be an option. It does roll Scry into a counterspell, which could be handy...

[AggroSteve]

i allways found condescend to be a bit subpar but not bad, if we add more ponder to the deck like in pre-MM-meta then i do not think condescend would be needed anymore
but man i really love spell snare from initial testings

only thing i miss is that my 20/20 is not that easily protectable anymore without MM, funny thing about that is that even if my marit lage token gets removed or sacrificed or bounced or whatever and does not immediatly kill, thanks to intuition, i will probalbly have a pile of witness and unearth in the yard and then i can just switch to unearthing a lot of beats in 1 turn^^, so cool

i would think my list is playing a lot more tempoish than yours, and i really love having daze, spell snare, and a goyf + maybe snuff out on my starting hand on the play, and even on the draw it is still fine