[Deck] UGB River Rock (formerly Intuition-Thresh)

[AggroSteve]

i allways found condescend to be a bit subpar but not bad, if we add more ponder to the deck like in pre-MM-meta then i do not think condescend would be needed anymore
but man i really love spell snare from initial testings

only thing i miss is that my 20/20 is not that easily protectable anymore without MM

i would think my list is playing a lot more tempoish than yours, and i really love having daze, spell snare, and a goyf + maybe snuff out on my starting hand on the play, and even on the draw it is still fine

[The Treefolk Master]

I've tested Ponder and they been incredible. I'm never sad to see Ponder, it's always a live draw, and can get us out of rough situations/pull ahead with incredible ease. I find myself Witnessing into Ponder to see 3 cards many times.

Have you tried Recurring Nightmare here? It seems a tad win-more, but it just sounds soooooo gooood, you drop it into play, and if you have a Witness in play you just won the game... I might test it, but I'd like to hear your thoughts first.

Really digging the deck so far, I just love the inevitability and recurrability, it reminds me a LOT of It's The Fear, but with the ability to, you know, win 2 games in less than 10 hours...

[AggroSteve]

LOL

i really love this deck as well, it is the most fun-to-play-deck i ever had^^

actually i love ponder as well, currently running only 2 though because i felt like i needed A) some accel now with the faster format, and B) something so ensure i get my threats out once i got control of the board (which is surprisingly easy with witness + snuff out, even if it costs a lot of life)
so i added 3 green sun's zenith (do not have any noble hierarchs, and they do the job as well, just not wastelandproof) and i immideately fell for them

green sus's zenith is simply amazing in this deck, allmost every game startet with a zenith into arbor an was not facing wastelands i won

some really nasty play last time i played was:

1st turn: zenith into arbor
2nd turn: snuff out > witness > snuff out
3rd turn: kitchen finks
4th turn: zenith into kitchen finks

with green sun zenith even kitchen finks, which were the least outstanding creature in my deck, get a lot more value
also unearth has been so amazing for me that i wanted a 2nd one in the list

i actually like green sun zenith to an extend that i was thinking of cutting the dark dephts combo in my list completely, but noticed that i will get the combo started only with intuition, and i noticed that getting the combo going by intuition the minimum amount of hexmages and Dark dephts is both 1, since the combo by intuition will allways involve a keyspell you allready have in hand.

my list right now is the following

19 land (including 1 wasteland, 1 stronghold, 1 dark dephts, 1 dryad arbor)

4 tarmogoyf
3 eternal witness
2 kitchen finks
2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)
1 fleshbag marauder/shriekmaw (i prefer marauder for reason of unearth-able)

3 snuff out
2 pernicious deed
3 green sun's zenith (going to 4 when i get my 4th)
3 intuition

4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 daze
3 spell snare
4 force of will

in my testings i noticed the following:

-accel for this deck is absolutely neccessary for competitive play
-witness + unearth is just sick (first deeding the board and then unearthing 2 witness + 1 tarmogoyf wins lots of games)
-witnessing for counters just used for the tempoplay is way to awesome (never used witness in a blue deck till now, and its so fun, and allmost unfair^^)
- the hybrid style of this deck suits my quite well, having both a tempo-game, and a board controll-game is difficult to board against, allthough i have to say that a few times a random tormods crypt ruined my day, by crypting away the removal i needed to witness)
- thanks to witness a bluecount of 18+ (in my case 19) is enought to ensure force of wills effectiveness
- against wastelands its often hard to get BB for the vampire hexmages, which makes this combo more vulnerable then NO into progenitus

- i dislike using intuition for 3-of-a-kind, because it reduces the percentages of getting another one massivly, and going "witness-unearth-card you want" will probably hurt the least, because either you get the card you need immideately or you get a blocker which gives you the card you need. For this reason i added a 2nd unearth, and because the fastest way to get the 20/20 out involves a unearth (preferably in your hand)

sorry for the extremely long post, but i wanted to get rid of my thoughts (otherwise i have a hard time falling asleep^^)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I've tested Ponder and they been incredible. I'm never sad to see Ponder, it's always a live draw, and can get us out of rough situations/pull ahead with incredible ease. I find myself Witnessing into Ponder to see 3 cards many times.

Ponder was always fantastic--there was a point where I ran 4 Ponder an 3 Brainstorm, despite the protests, since Ponder was so much more important to hit lands early on (at the time).

Have you tried Recurring Nightmare here? It seems a tad win-more, but it just sounds soooooo gooood, you drop it into play, and if you have a Witness in play you just won the game... I might test it, but I'd like to hear your thoughts first.

I haven't. My inclination is to say that it's a tad slow and win-more for our purposes. Feel free to try it and report back, though!

Really digging the deck so far, I just love the inevitability and recurrability, it reminds me a LOT of It's The Fear, but with the ability to, you know, win 2 games in less than 10 hours...

=)

green sus's zenith is simply amazing in this deck, allmost every game startet with a zenith into arbor an was not facing wastelands i won

Yeah, it's good. The question was whether it was worth making room for some GSZs and Dryads Arbor given the prevalence of Wasteland, and the fact that this deck's mana development is a tad fragile. In the end, I decided that Noble Hierarch was a much safer plan overall. Without the NO package, however, I can see those extra slots being well-used by GSZ.

some really nasty play last time i played was:

1st turn: zenith into arbor
2nd turn: snuff out > witness > snuff out
3rd turn: kitchen finks
4th turn: zenith into kitchen finks

Yeah, that's part of why Snuff Out is just so good here. The same plays are fairly frequent with Noble Hierarch as well, except that Finks/Goyf hits for one more thanks to exalted.

with green sun zenith even kitchen finks, which were the least outstanding creature in my deck, get a lot more value
also unearth has been so amazing for me that i wanted a 2nd one in the list

If you have the slots, Unearth is a great way to use them.

i actually like green sun zenith to an extend that i was thinking of cutting the dark dephts combo in my list completely, but noticed that i will get the combo started only with intuition, and i noticed that getting the combo going by intuition the minimum amount of hexmages and Dark dephts is both 1, since the combo by intuition will allways involve a keyspell you allready have in hand.

If you ever manage to get Natural Orders, it's definitely the better combo. I'm glad you're getting some mileage out of the alternative, however. I would be very hesitant to go below 2-3 Hexmages, however, since it's quite easy to lose (or use) one in the normal course of the game, especially to StP and PtE.

2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)

How come? GSZ can't fetch it...

in my testings i noticed the following:

-accel for this deck is absolutely neccessary for competitive play

Agreed. Without Hierarch, even the NO version just can't function reliably.

-witness + unearth is just sick (first deeding the board and then unearthing 2 witness + 1 tarmogoyf wins lots of games)

Yup!

-witnessing for counters just used for the tempoplay is way to awesome (never used witness in a blue deck till now, and its so fun, and allmost unfair^^)

Yeah... who needs Snapcaster Mage when we have Eternal Witness?

- thanks to witness a bluecount of 18+ (in my case 19) is enought to ensure force of wills effectiveness

Yeah, 18 works just fine for me.

- i dislike using intuition for 3-of-a-kind, because it reduces the percentages of getting another one massivly, and going "witness-unearth-card you want" will probably hurt the least, because either you get the card you need immideately or you get a blocker which gives you the card you need. For this reason i added a 2nd unearth, and because the fastest way to get the 20/20 out involves a unearth (preferably in your hand)

Yeah, you should avoid 3-of-a-kind as much as you can, although sometimes it's a necessary evil. I suspect it's a lot easier and faster to set up the combo piles with NO, since I don't need to rely on a specific creature and land.




In other news, I've been testing both Phyrexian Metamorph and Skaab Ruinator in the Kitchen Finks slot. Both are great, although there are a number of times when I wished I had Finks instead (for the lifegain). I think that one Skaab Ruinator is probably the highest number the deck can support, though, since I've been getting them stuck in my hand when I run two, and it dilutes my ability to cast NO. Next up for testing: 1 Metamorph + 1 Ruinator, and then after that, 2 Scavenging Ooze (which at least can gain life and present a serious threat, although I'm likely to miss Persist). Persist and the lifegain are just a really handy combination, and helps to shore up multiple weaknesses. I suspect Kitchen Finks is still the best card for that slot.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I've tested Ponder and they been incredible. I'm never sad to see Ponder, it's always a live draw, and can get us out of rough situations/pull ahead with incredible ease. I find myself Witnessing into Ponder to see 3 cards many times.

Ponder was always fantastic--there was a point where I ran 4 Ponder an 3 Brainstorm, despite the protests, since Ponder was so much more important to hit lands early on (at the time).

Have you tried Recurring Nightmare here? It seems a tad win-more, but it just sounds soooooo gooood, you drop it into play, and if you have a Witness in play you just won the game... I might test it, but I'd like to hear your thoughts first.

I haven't. My inclination is to say that it's a tad slow and win-more for our purposes. Feel free to try it and report back, though!

Really digging the deck so far, I just love the inevitability and recurrability, it reminds me a LOT of It's The Fear, but with the ability to, you know, win 2 games in less than 10 hours...

=)

green sus's zenith is simply amazing in this deck, allmost every game startet with a zenith into arbor an was not facing wastelands i won

Yeah, it's good. The question was whether it was worth making room for some GSZs and Dryads Arbor given the prevalence of Wasteland, and the fact that this deck's mana development is a tad fragile. In the end, I decided that Noble Hierarch was a much safer plan overall. Without the NO package, however, I can see those extra slots being well-used by GSZ.

some really nasty play last time i played was:

1st turn: zenith into arbor
2nd turn: snuff out > witness > snuff out
3rd turn: kitchen finks
4th turn: zenith into kitchen finks

Yeah, that's part of why Snuff Out is just so good here. The same plays are fairly frequent with Noble Hierarch as well, except that Finks/Goyf hits for one more thanks to exalted.

with green sun zenith even kitchen finks, which were the least outstanding creature in my deck, get a lot more value
also unearth has been so amazing for me that i wanted a 2nd one in the list

If you have the slots, Unearth is a great way to use them.

i actually like green sun zenith to an extend that i was thinking of cutting the dark dephts combo in my list completely, but noticed that i will get the combo started only with intuition, and i noticed that getting the combo going by intuition the minimum amount of hexmages and Dark dephts is both 1, since the combo by intuition will allways involve a keyspell you allready have in hand.

If you ever manage to get Natural Orders, it's definitely the better combo. I'm glad you're getting some mileage out of the alternative, however. I would be very hesitant to go below 2-3 Hexmages, however, since it's quite easy to lose (or use) one in the normal course of the game, especially to StP and PtE.

2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)

How come? GSZ can't fetch it...

in my testings i noticed the following:

-accel for this deck is absolutely neccessary for competitive play

Agreed. Without Hierarch, even the NO version just can't function reliably.

-witness + unearth is just sick (first deeding the board and then unearthing 2 witness + 1 tarmogoyf wins lots of games)

Yup!

-witnessing for counters just used for the tempoplay is way to awesome (never used witness in a blue deck till now, and its so fun, and allmost unfair^^)

Yeah... who needs Snapcaster Mage when we have Eternal Witness?

- thanks to witness a bluecount of 18+ (in my case 19) is enought to ensure force of wills effectiveness

Yeah, 18 works just fine for me.

- i dislike using intuition for 3-of-a-kind, because it reduces the percentages of getting another one massivly, and going "witness-unearth-card you want" will probably hurt the least, because either you get the card you need immideately or you get a blocker which gives you the card you need. For this reason i added a 2nd unearth, and because the fastest way to get the 20/20 out involves a unearth (preferably in your hand)

Yeah, you should avoid 3-of-a-kind as much as you can, although sometimes it's a necessary evil. I suspect it's a lot easier and faster to set up the combo piles with NO, since I don't need to rely on a specific creature and land.




In other news, I've been testing both Phyrexian Metamorph and Skaab Ruinator in the Kitchen Finks slot. Both are great, although there are a number of times when I wished I had Finks instead (for the lifegain). I think that one Skaab Ruinator is probably the highest number the deck can support, though, since I've been getting them stuck in my hand when I run two, and it dilutes my ability to cast NO. Next up for testing: 1 Metamorph + 1 Ruinator, and then after that, 2 Scavenging Ooze (which at least can gain life and present a serious threat, although I'm likely to miss Persist). Persist and the lifegain are just a really handy combination, and helps to shore up multiple weaknesses. I suspect Kitchen Finks is still the best card for that slot.

[AggroSteve]

on the matter GSZ vs. noble hierarch:

i believe GSZ is stronger, i tested both for a while (proxys^^), and found hierarch to be good but i actually prefer having the creature i want than having a creature with exalted
plus GSZ even if the accel is not wastelandproof it gives a lot more options, such as running hate in the main, in form of a scavenging ooze, which would be an additional way to offset the lifeloss from snuff out, plus spore frog for example as a defense against progenitus, or anything that would deal lots of damage in one turn (together with stronghold you can stall the game forever)

i will probably run 1 ooze instead of the 4th tarmogoyf, since they are comparable in size and with GSZ i can fetch it if need be

2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)
How come? GSZ can't fetch it...

as i allready said, i was thinking of cutting the combo completely when i realized that i only need a singleton of the vampire and the land

since it is allmost only possible to establish the combo via intuition and allmost every intuitionpile to get the combo going had 1 hexmage and 1 dark dephts in it + card to get either one of those two back, and another card in hand to get the other one back, it does not really matter if i have 2 vampire + 1 unearth in the deck or 2 unearth + 1 vampire

and actually i prefer a 2nd unearth over the hexmage, as i thas more use overall for the deck

here some examples for intuitionpiles to get the combo going, mostly in the following turn:

card in hand: witness -> DD/Loam/Hexmage
Dark Dephts -> Witness/Unearth/Hexmage or Unearth/Unearth/Hexmage
Hexmage -> Witness/Loam/DD
Loam -> DD/Hexmage/Volrath's Stronghold
Volrath's Stronghold -> Witness/Hexmage/DD
Unearth -> Witness/Hexmage/DD or Loam/Hexmage/DD

as you can see allmost every intuition pile will search exactly for both hexmage and dark dephts, and a way to get them back, depending on what we allready have in hand

interesting here is that the most efficient pile is with unearth allready in hand into loam/hexmage/DD, and it is the fastest pile as well only needing 3 manasources to get it going, and not even BB for hexmage
all the other piles are a bit slower needing between 4 to 6 mana (acceptable to not so good), or if volrath's stronghold is involved maybe even needing a 2nd turn (even worse)
in addiction to being a mana/time-intensive combo comes the fact that it is easily disruptable if expected, hence i dot want to use more slots than the bare minimum to the combo, and with 2 slots the combo does really not need much space for the occasional blowout

the interesting thing about this combo might be exactly the conditionality of your hand, enabling a extremely fast combo which allmost immideately wins games, but if the hand you have would only provide a slower combo, you probably should avoid it, as dedicating up to 2 turns for the combo could spell doom for you

therefor if anyone wants to try the Hexmage-Combo instead of Natural Order i would reccomend only using the underlined comboattempts if you do not have an abundance of mana at your disposal

again i posted a incredibly long post, but i want you all to know of my approach to the deck, and hope you appreciate it^^

[AggroSteve]

on the matter GSZ vs. noble hierarch:

i believe GSZ is stronger, i tested both for a while (proxys^^), and found hierarch to be good but i actually prefer having the creature i want than having a creature with exalted
plus GSZ even if the accel is not wastelandproof it gives a lot more options, such as running hate in the main, in form of a scavenging ooze, which would be an additional way to offset the lifeloss from snuff out, plus spore frog for example as a defense against progenitus, or anything that would deal lots of damage in one turn (together with stronghold you can stall the game forever)

i will probably run 1 ooze instead of the 4th tarmogoyf, since they are comparable in size and with GSZ i can fetch it if need be

2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)
How come? GSZ can't fetch it...

as i allready said, i was thinking of cutting the combo completely when i realized that i only need a singleton of the vampire and the land

since it is allmost only possible to establish the combo via intuition and allmost every intuitionpile to get the combo going had 1 hexmage and 1 dark dephts in it + card to get either one of those two back, and another card in hand to get the other one back, it does not really matter if i have 2 vampire + 1 unearth in the deck or 2 unearth + 1 vampire

and actually i prefer a 2nd unearth over the hexmage, as i thas more use overall for the deck

here some examples for intuitionpiles to get the combo going, mostly in the following turn:

card in hand -> intuitionpile

witness -> DD/Loam/Hexmage
Dark Dephts -> Witness/Unearth/Hexmage or Unearth/Unearth/Hexmage
Hexmage -> Witness/Loam/DD
Loam -> DD/Hexmage/Volrath's Stronghold
Volrath's Stronghold -> Witness/Hexmage/DD
Unearth -> Witness/Hexmage/DD or Loam/Hexmage/DD

as you can see allmost every intuition pile will search exactly for both hexmage and dark dephts, and a way to get them back, depending on what we allready have in hand

interesting here is that the most efficient pile is with unearth allready in hand into loam/hexmage/DD, and it is the fastest pile as well only needing 3 manasources to get it going, and not even BB for hexmage
all the other piles are a bit slower needing between 4 to 6 mana (acceptable to not so good), or if volrath's stronghold is involved maybe even needing a 2nd turn (even worse)
in addiction to being a mana/time-intensive combo comes the fact that it is easily disruptable if expected, hence i dot want to use more slots than the bare minimum to the combo, and with 2 slots the combo does really not need much space for the occasional blowout

the interesting thing about this combo might be exactly the conditionality of your hand, enabling a extremely fast combo which allmost immideately wins games, but if the hand you have would only provide a slower combo, you probably should avoid it, as dedicating up to 2 turns for the combo could spell doom for you

therefor if anyone wants to try the Hexmage-Combo instead of Natural Order i would recommend only using the underlined comboattempts if you do not have an abundance of mana at your disposal

again i posted a incredibly long post, but i want you all to know of my approach to the deck, and hope you appreciate it^^

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Just wanted to say that I've been running 2x Scavenging Ooze (rather than the Finks) in testing recently, and I absolutely love them. While lack of Persist is a small downside, the ability to keep one mana open on turn two (for Pierce or Snare) and to maindeck graveyard hate is quite relevant. I have not yet tried 1x Ooze and 1x Metamorph, or 1x Ooze and 1x Ruinator; these might still be workable combinations. I've been running Spell Snare in Misstep's place, but I'm not convinced I wouldn't prefer Spell Pierce. If I don't get my Pierces and my other Ooze by Thursday's weekly tournament, I'll just test something else instead (probably a Ruinator and maybe just 2x GSZ and 1x Dryad Arbor or something).

[AggroSteve]

GSZ is really awesome in this deck, we may not have a lot of hatebears as maverick for example but being able to accelerate, and getting the creature you want/need in your situation is really nice

getting gravehate, recursion (if needed into removal), a beater, or life is not bad at all, speciall life since it offsets snuff outs cost

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Well, my cards arrived in time. I tied for 4th (9th after breakers) out of 19. I played 2 Oozes, with 3 Pierces and 3 Deeds main (3 Pulses in the board).

I lost 2-1 to RBW aggro-control (drew land after land G2), beat MUC 2-0 (thanks to Pierce and an Ooze that shrank the Tarmogoyf he stole and ultimately grew way bigger than it), and then "beat" WUG Stoneblade (he conceded both games instead of dropping).

I can definitely say that Spell Pierce is amazing--I used it extensively in all four games I played. Simlarly, Ooze is responsible for winning two of those games single-handedly. It's pretty awesome.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I haven't had a chance to play the deck in a local tournament in a couple months due to work. One day in the near future, however...!

One thing: now that Delver is wandering around, I think it's worth swapping Maelstrom Pulse for Pernicious Deed again. I've been beating the Delver decks left and right, especially post-board when I also gain access to Chalice @ 1 (I side out the Natural Order plan).

Also, I no longer seem capable of losing 2/3 to Dredge. Thanks, Scavenging Ooze! You're amazing!

[spartan117]

@Goaswerfraiejen: Your wonderful primer actually got me really interested in playing the deck (which I find simply amazing).

I'd like to see your most recent decklist if you care to share it, I really like the idea of skaab ruinator coming out of nowhere and its being dismember-proof. The deck actually seems quite complex and I'd like to test its latest version for some weeks before taking it to a tournament knowing its in&outs

Thanks for your attention!

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@Goaswerfraiejen: Your wonderful primer actually got me really interested in playing the deck (which I find simply amazing).

I'd like to see your most recent decklist if you care to share it, I really like the idea of skaab ruinator coming out of nowhere and its being dismember-proof. The deck actually seems quite complex and I'd like to test its latest version for some weeks before taking it to a tournament knowing its in&outs

Thanks for your attention!

Thanks for your interest! Unfortunately, I have not been able to make Skaab Ruinator work very well yet, which is really too bad. It's probably best as a one-of, but I haven't found the ideal slot to cut for it yet. Maybe a Daze, maybe a Witness (*cringe*). Intuition? Sideboard singleton? I'm really not sure. I also haven't tested how it works with Ooze; that might be a non-starter. I just dunno at this point.

My current list (following the swap I recommended just above) is as follows:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland


Creatures (15)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus


Spells (28)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
3 Intuition
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Darkblast

[spartan117]

@Goaswerfraiejen: thanks for sharing the decklist

I'd like to ask you a few questions about some deck choices.

1) The bluecount for FoW is really at the minimum (17 including FoW itself + progenitus, which I'd obviosly prefer not to pitch if possible). Do you ever find yourself lacking a blue spell to pitch to FoW in a critical stage of the game? I know witness helps you having the right card in hand and basically ups you bluecount if you had previously cast a brainstorm/pierce/daze, but we also have to keep in mind that witness is still a CC3 and a starting hand such as land-hierarch-land is happening only 40% of the games.

2) I've been playing Canadian Threshold with great success over the last 3 years, and I perfectly know that UBG decks have some issues in dealing with a resolved mongoose (as you also stated in your primer). We obviously have a few ways to stop the shrouded green creature, but those solutions are mana intensive (pernicious deed) or at cc2 (tarmogoyf, scavenging ooze -> amazing vs thresh), basically the perfect target for opposing spell snares . The positive aspect is that nimble mongoose requires 3-4-5 turns to reach threshold and that works in our favor, giving us the time needed to set up a defense plan. But how do we deal with a resolved delver on turn1? I mean, besides snuff out we are totally unable to kill/block the flying nacatl before having taken 9 points of damage, and if they counter our snuff out (ok, only with FoW, but I'd counter it all life long), we find ourselves with -4 life and an evasive 3/2 which will end the game in 5 turns. Basing on you tests, have you been able to address this problem most of the times or did you find yourself struggling to find a solution? (being almost impossible for us to put up a faster clock then our opponent's)

As a side note: CoTV>>>thresh

3) Talking about grave hate most people will side in against us, has Surgical Extraction been an issue for you? We are still able to win games without passing through graveyard recursion, but we often need some sort of card advantage in the mid/late game to keep up the pressure. Also, Surgical Extraction makes it impossible to tutor for a 3-off, unless we're playing that card right after having resolved intuition.

4) scavenging ooze is simply amazing vs basically everything, but I'd like to have kitchen finks, not ooze, by my side when talking about lifegain. Ooze is very limited in that sense, and recurring it doesn't give us extra-life, unlike kitchen finks. Have you considered a 1-1 split or the randomness of drawing the wrong one is too high? (we basically become intuition-dependent to find the needed one).


Thanks in advance for the answers!

[AggroSteve]

from my expirience with the deck (well i am running a bit of a different version, because i do not posses hierarchs and natural orders) gravehate has been a serius issue for me, specially extirpate and the likes, basically it makes our trump-card look like crap.

i for my part run green sun zenith instead of hierarchs as it gives me allmost the same thing, but is an addictional tutor to search for the needed creatures

to the bluecount, i have allways used 20 or more in any other deck, but this deck actually only needs 19, at least in my incarnation of the deck.
with 19 blue cards you should never have a problem with casting force, and witness really helps a lot here

my really only problem with the deck is its inconsistency(it may be just my build, but i don't know), but this is one of the rare decks that can have absolute nut-draws, i often even prevented my opponents from doing anything of worth in the first 5 turns

the combination of GSZ, witness, snuff out, spell snare, and daze is really brutal, and it is because of this that i am thinking of cutting intiution for snapcaster mages as they have allmost the same use as witness and add to the bluecount, with the downside compared to witness that flashbacking is possible only once (specially unearth comes to mind)
will need testing, but it might be possible that this deck cannot work properly without intuition

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@Goaswerfraiejen: thanks for sharing the decklist

I'd like to ask you a few questions about some deck choices.

Sure thing!

1) The bluecount for FoW is really at the minimum (17 including FoW itself + progenitus, which I'd obviosly prefer not to pitch if possible). Do you ever find yourself lacking a blue spell to pitch to FoW in a critical stage of the game? I know witness helps you having the right card in hand and basically ups you bluecount if you had previously cast a brainstorm/pierce/daze, but we also have to keep in mind that witness is still a CC3 and a starting hand such as land-hierarch-land is happening only 40% of the games.

Nope. Obviously it happens occasionally, but not often enough to be an issue. As you observed, Witness recycles blue spells, effectively upping the count. I have no qualms about pitching Progenitus; the amount of effort required to get it back into my library isn't worth it if a problematic spell is about to be cast. Scavenging Ooze, Goyf, and Witness (and exalted, of course!) can easily do the job on their own. In fact, since including Ooze, I've been using it more and more often for the kill. That's the beauty of having a deck that's not dependent on any one strategy.

I am not above using Natural Order to fetch Eternal Witness (usually a fantastic move) or Scavenging Ooze.

2) I've been playing Canadian Threshold with great success over the last 3 years, and I perfectly know that UBG decks have some issues in dealing with a resolved mongoose (as you also stated in your primer). We obviously have a few ways to stop the shrouded green creature, but those solutions are mana intensive (pernicious deed) or at cc2 (tarmogoyf, scavenging ooze -> amazing vs thresh), basically the perfect target for opposing spell snares . The positive aspect is that nimble mongoose requires 3-4-5 turns to reach threshold and that works in our favor, giving us the time needed to set up a defense plan. But how do we deal with a resolved delver on turn1? I mean, besides snuff out we are totally unable to kill/block the flying nacatl before having taken 9 points of damage, and if they counter our snuff out (ok, only with FoW, but I'd counter it all life long), we find ourselves with -4 life and an evasive 3/2 which will end the game in 5 turns. Basing on you tests, have you been able to address this problem most of the times or did you find yourself struggling to find a solution? (being almost impossible for us to put up a faster clock then our opponent's)

G1, you just have to hope for Snuff Out on Delver, a counterspell, or resolving Deed. I've found that my first Snuff Out usually resolves, usually because it leaves me with enough free mana to pay for a Daze, and either the opponent doesn't have FoW, or doesn't want to use it (can't see why not, though). The 9-12 damage by the time Deed resolves is a real headache; on the other hand, Thresh usually has no MD answer to Deed, which absolutely cripples them. One board-wiping frequently means the game for them; if you're lucky enough to follow up with Ooze (or to have one on board already and just pop Deed for 1), you basically automatically win. For games 2 and 3, however, Chalice of the Void makes all the difference. Darkblast helps, to a certain extent, and I sometimes squeeze in some room for Maelstrom Pulse too (but not usually all three). I try to draw out Spell Snare with Goyf so that Ooze can resolve or, if I'm lucky, I draw out the counterspell with Ooze and cast Unearth. The nice thing is that we have too many must-counters for Thresh; their hand empties really quickly, and we're in a good position to take advantage of that.

The games with Thresh are pretty even, mostly because I lose G1 a little more than I win it, but win games 2 and 3 more often than I lose them. The nice thing is that the the longer the game goes, the more likely we are to win it. We have far more powerful mid- and late-games than they do, and it shows. The trick is surviving the first five turns with more than just a handful of life.

EDIT: I should add, in case it wasn't clear, that I side out the Natural Order plan against Thresh. It's just too risky and resource-intensive when I'm faced with the prospects of a counterspell war and Delvers. Chalice of the Void is a vastly superior choice for the matchup. It is so, so good.

As a side note: CoTV>>>thresh

Yeah, it's absolutely crippling. A resolved Chalice is game, even if there's still a Delver on the board (provided you have 6+ life!).

3) Talking about grave hate most people will side in against us, has Surgical Extraction been an issue for you? We are still able to win games without passing through graveyard recursion, but we often need some sort of card advantage in the mid/late game to keep up the pressure. Also, Surgical Extraction makes it impossible to tutor for a 3-off, unless we're playing that card right after having resolved intuition.

I ignore grave hate because it's not particularly effective. If my opponent is busy removing my graveyard, I just focus on resolving Progenitus, or beating face with with my creatures (who care more about the opponent's graveyard anyway). Graveyard hate is pretty much the least effective form of hate against this deck. We abuse graveyards, but we don't rely on them.

As for Extraction, playing around it is easy enough. I just don't tutor for tricks (Witness x2/Unearth, Loam piles), and instead use Intuition to triple-fetch my Forces of Will or something that I can cast by retaining priority.

4) scavenging ooze is simply amazing vs basically everything, but I'd like to have kitchen finks, not ooze, by my side when talking about lifegain. Ooze is very limited in that sense, and recurring it doesn't give us extra-life, unlike kitchen finks. Have you considered a 1-1 split or the randomness of drawing the wrong one is too high? (we basically become intuition-dependent to find the needed one).

I've considered it, but I haven't tried it. Ooze is just too good. I was initially concerned about the slower life gain, but it hasn't really proven to be an issue. In fact, with Ooze I typically gain far more life far faster in the matchups where it matters. In those matchups where it doesn't matter, I'd usually prefer to have Ooze anyway.

from my expirience with the deck (well i am running a bit of a different version, because i do not posses hierarchs and natural orders) gravehate has been a serius issue for me, specially extirpate and the likes, basically it makes our trump-card look like crap.

Yeah, that's a feature of your version. The Natural Order option makes graveyard hate irrelevant.

my really only problem with the deck is its inconsistency(it may be just my build, but i don't know), but this is one of the rare decks that can have absolute nut-draws, i often even prevented my opponents from doing anything of worth in the first 5 turns

I think that's probably a feature of your version as well; I typically don't stop everything for five turns, but I do have a great deal of consistency.

the combination of GSZ, witness, snuff out, spell snare, and daze is really brutal, and it is because of this that i am thinking of cutting intiution for snapcaster mages as they have allmost the same use as witness and add to the bluecount, with the downside compared to witness that flashbacking is possible only once (specially unearth comes to mind)
will need testing, but it might be possible that this deck cannot work properly without intuition

It's an interesting thought, particularly for your version, which is better placed to used SCM. My version wants Intuition as a backup plan to increase consistency.

[AggroSteve]

my biggest problem though with snapcaster mage is the removal-package, which would need to be completely different from the removal-package you would use with witness

obviously witness + snuff out just rocks, but SCM + Snuff out is no good

for snapcaster mage i would either need the following

go for the throat / smother (mana-intensive)
ghastly demise (very conditional, specially with a lot of graverecursion)
dismember (maybe the best one avialable, but the lifeloss might get to big, otherwise it is more manaintensive then go for the throat)

obviously this is just theory right now, because right now i do not have the money for snapcaster mages, but over christmas-holidays i will at least have the time to test a bit

on the other side, i could stil use witness for removal-recursion, and snapcaster for counter/draw-recursion, but in that case i would probably swith the 3 daze for either spell pierce, or the 4th spell snare + 2 counterspell

what are your thoughts on this matter

[spartan117]

@goaswerfraiejen: thanks for your quick reply. I agree with most of the things you said, they're supported with logic reasoning and good explanations. I do still have some issues about the bluecount, but testings will give me the answer I'm looking for.
Also: how does this deck fare against BG nic-fit? To me it doesn't seem to be a great MU... Liliana of the veil is a real pain if not answered properly... Maelstrom pulse could be very useful here but only post-side, deed is far too powerful in the actual metagame not to play it MD.

@aggrosteve: I quite like your own list, but to me goaswerfraiejen's one seems a lot more solid and resilient to targeted hate. Also, 2 copies of GSZ will result in only 1 acceleration, while 2 noble hierarches provide 2 more mana and double exalted/fodder for Natural Order. Talking about order, progenitus/empyrial archangel are much more powerful to me than hex-dephts, being immune to StP and PtE, which see a lot of play nowadays. If you were able to play order, would you play it over hex-depths? I think you would, because it allows you to play around grave hate and not to rely on intuition to reliably find the combo (NO-order is also immune to stifle/wasteland, which will slow you down a lot. Post side both combo suck against stifle-waste decks however ). I really like the 2 ponders you are playing, I'd like to find space for them but really can't.

[AggroSteve]

i would definitely play natural order instead of hex-dephts, since the metashift because of the Mental Misstep banning, this combo really sucks, everywhere stifles, spell snares, wasteland, everything i do not want to see if i am using this combo.

actually the hex-dephts combo was more of a budget alternative, but worked also quite well, in the latest list i went down to 1 hexmage, 1 DD, but added a 2nd unearth, because unearth is a blast.

Using the hexmagecombo, is definitely less resilient to hate, that is for sure and definitely weaker than natural order because the hexmagecombo is weak to gravehate just like the rest of the deck allready is a little

one thought i had was either substituting intuition (weak to extirpate effects and gravehate) for maybe 2 copies of living wish, but at last i decided to cut both (hexmagecombo, and intuition) for further testings

i will inform you how the deck works with snapcaster mages instead of intuition, hopefully its gonna be fuuuuun, at least the idea of having 6-8 witness-effects is really nice^^

@ playing 2 ponder: it may sound strange but in a blue deck i would never want to go under 4 brainstorm 2 ponder, those cards are just awesome, and i often even prefered ponder over brainstorm if i did not have to defend from discard

[wizard_of_gore]

Helo guys!

I notice this deck:
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...2&iddeck=53188

And I liked a lot. Since i playing decks like rock, bant, landstill, team america, i own all cards for this deck. So, i what do you think about this natural order build?