[Deck] UGB River Rock (formerly Intuition-Thresh)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Two newly spoiled cards to discuss:

Grafdigger's Cage: This represents one more (small) stumbling block for us, since it neuters Natural Order and Unearth. Luckily, Unearth cycles, and Natural Order can always be sided out. For now, I think it will only be a minor annoyance, even if its use becomes widespread. We will still be able to use Natural Order G1, which is a huge advantage. And we still have plenty of ways of responding to the cage if necessary: counterpells, Deed, Pulse, Grip, etc. Its printing, however, does give us a good reason to give up on Skaab Ruinator for the time being (and Kitchen Finks, although Ooze definitely outclasses it).

The real bad news is that the Cage may well push Dredge out of the picture, and that's an overwhelmingly positive matchup for us. It will also probably push out Reanimator, which was also a pretty decent matchup. Oh well. On the bright side, that should free up some sideboard space for us to run our own Cages, and we're well-placed to take advantage of the power vacuum if Zoo and Maverick grow to try to fill out the new vacancies.

[http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...76474]Predator Ooze[/url]: I think this represents a plausible alternative strategy to Natural Order. Resolving it isn't too hard, it can be Unearthed, and it will grow fairly quickly (Snuff Out, Deed, and Darkblast can also help grow it when it's blocked). Indestructability complements Deed quite nicely, and makes it into a must-answer, or another Swords/Path target. I wouldn't run four, but I'll try to make room for one or two in either the MD or the SB. It may not make the cut, but it's definitely worth testing.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Well, my work has kept me from playing locally for the last several months. I should be able to start again now, however. From the limited testing I've still been doing on MWS, it seems like the current meta, while not intensely hostile to the deck, is not exactly the kind of meta in which it thrives: Sneak/Show is particularly hard to beat, I keep encountering Mono-B decks, which are typically quite hard to beat, and Maverick's and Blade Control's evolutions are becoming harder to keep up with. Plus, the splash-hate from RUG was pretty awful for a while there.


I'm optimistic about the future, however, and am particularly excited by the upcoming printing of Abrupt Decay. It's quite an awesome addition to our arsenal precisely because it's versatile, easy to recur with Witness, easy to cast, and largely invulnerable to blue. That makes a huge difference, and gives us a good way of dealing with problematic cards like Counterbalance, Liliana and other mono-black tricks, and even gives us a way to deal with Jitte, the Swords (very relevant against the Blade Control decks), Germ tokens, Merfolk lords, Crucible of Worlds, etc. Plus, you don'T need to pay any extra to play around Thalia, it ignores Chalice, and it isn't stopped by Teeg (while Snuff Out was--a huge pain in the ass). All in all, that's a massive gain for this deck, and should help it keep pace with the competition.

The casting cost limit doesn't look like it will hamper us unduly, since we do have the means of dealing with many of the larger creatures that come out (e.g. lots of graveyard hate for Reanimator, hope of Shriekmaw; nothing vs. Sneak/Show anyway), and it's actually those cheaper spells that tend to be most worrisome.

The only question is what to cut for it. At this point, Snuff Out seems like the obvious candidate, which in turn helps us on the life loss front. Snuff Out's tempo is amazing, but having it countered is disastrous and it becomes increasingly hard to use as the game goes on; the tradeoff here and now seems fair enough to me.

For a while there I was also testing 3 Delvers in place of Pulse, and it's been working decently (not great, not terrible; just decent), but I think it's time to go back to Pulse to complement Abrupt Decay. I will try to find a fourth slot for Abrupt Decay because it's so good, and Pulse may just be what goes. We'll see.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I just finished uploading the newly updated primer. I've also made sure that its contents are all on the first page, so that nobody needs to download the PDF if they don't want to.

From my testing, Abrupt Decay makes a world of difference. Hopefully it and the rising popularity of the BUG variant of Nic Fit will renew interest in this deck, since that's a path we trod already.

[Vandalize]

I just finished uploading the newly updated primer. I've also made sure that its contents are all on the first page, so that nobody needs to download the PDF if they don't want to.

From my testing, Abrupt Decay makes a world of difference. Hopefully it and the rising popularity of the BUG variant of Nic Fit will renew interest in this deck, since that's a path we trod already.

How's 18 lands working? In my view, it's too few for a deck that has many CMC 2~3, and even cast Natural Order. Do you get screwed often?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

How's 18 lands working? In my view, it's too few for a deck that has many CMC 2~3, and even cast Natural Order. Do you get screwed often?

Honestly, it's not really an issue. It does happen, of course, and 18 lands is quite tight, even with Noble Hierarch evening things out, but it's rare and I quite frankly don't see much room to cut for another land or two. Hitting four mana by turn 5 isn't really all that important; what is is three mana by turn three. And that's not that hard.

My preference would be for 19 lands, but I've found that most of the cuts that would be possible impact performance more negatively than the lack of the 19th land does. Life from the Loam seems like the likeliest candidate for a cut, but it proved suicidal in previous metagames. I'll need more experience with this one to be sure, but I suspect the negatives will still outweigh the positives.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I was just thinking: rather than cut 1 Daze for the fourth Abrupt Decay, it makes sense to cut 1 Maelstrom Pulse, since Decay is functionally very similar. Plus, that way the blue count stays at exactly the minimum appropriate level (or one above the minimum, depending on whether you measure that at 17 or 18).

And that got my thinking that it may well be safe enough out there to cut Pulse entirely for the moment. So I'm currently testing with +1 Gigapede (why not? At least it's more or less effective vs. Planeswalkers, but it could really be anything, including another Pulse) and +1 land (Dryad Arbor for now, to see how it jibes, but I suspect a basic land would be even better).

On to the testing gauntlet!

[jeanbathez]

@Goaswerfraiejen : Very good work with the Deck and the primer. I like the idea of this Deck.
When i got my playset of decays next week i will test it at a small tournament.

[Plm]

Hi, great thread and primer.

After testing and playing "the mind harvester", the intuition control variant, I decided to switch to a faster intuition deck and found river rock (whose name puzzled me at first...)

I playtested the OP list a bit and found some issues against red/fast decks :

- The removal cost too much, 2 mana is doable because of versatility and fuckblueness, but 3 mana is late game and you need to answer 1cc threats sometimes.

- 18 lands is fewer than I'm comfortable with. Against decks short in removal you can bank on hierarch but red decks (and snapcaster decks) have enough removal to kill her at sight; which really hamper the deck plan to play 3cc spells.

- Not enough green critter mean that N.O. isn't reliable enough to win if you're behind. (when goyf is holding the fort, you're good )

- Not enough blue cards to pitch, I've lost many games with force and 2+ cards in hand and none of them blue.


The spots I think should be changed are the 3 pulses.

We could include - more green critter ( either beef or accel, I favor accel, maybe some deathrite shaman, maybe some green sun + dryad harbor).
- more blue stuff : a daze, a few ponder
- more lands : here comes dryad again !
- 1cc black removal. ghastly demise or disfigure, a 1 of darkblast ?

Against Zoo and burn lavamancer has been my worst nightmare, but it was hard to kill him with pulses .

I realize that I must sound bitter and only complaining, but I found the deck real good and want to help improve it. This post is not representative of how I see the deck, only its burn/zoo/slight match up.

For now I'll test the deck with 2 shaman and a darkblast instead of the 3 pulses and see how it goes.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@Goaswerfraiejen : Very good work with the Deck and the primer. I like the idea of this Deck.
When i got my playset of decays next week i will test it at a small tournament.

Cool! Let us know how it goes!

Hi, great thread and primer.

some issues against red/fast decks :

- The removal cost too much, 2 mana is doable because of versatility and fuckblueness, but 3 mana is late game and you need to answer 1cc threats sometimes.

- 18 lands is fewer than I'm comfortable with. Against decks short in removal you can bank on hierarch but red decks (and snapcaster decks) have enough removal to kill her at sight; which really hamper the deck plan to play 3cc spells.

- Not enough green critter mean that N.O. isn't reliable enough to win if you're behind. (when goyf is holding the fort, you're good )

- Not enough blue cards to pitch, I've lost many games with force and 2+ cards in hand and none of them blue.


The spots I think should be changed are the 3 pulses.

We could include - more green critter ( either beef or accel, I favor accel, maybe some deathrite shaman, maybe some green sun + dryad harbor).
- more blue stuff : a daze, a few ponder
- more lands : here comes dryad again !
- 1cc black removal. ghastly demise or disfigure, a 1 of darkblast ?

Thanks for picking up the deck!

Yeah. I came to more or less the same conclusion(s) in post #86: going down to 2 Daze for 4 Decay is the wrong move, because it puts the deck in borderline FOW territory (and it's already fairly close). So I've removed the 3 Pulses, and I think the deck still works fine (especially with Fleshbag Marauder rather than Shriekmaw now, since it can be Unearthed). I added Daze, Dryad Arbor, and Gigapede. I'm not entirely sold on Dryad vs. another proper land, since it's not yet really proven itself particularly useful, but in theory it should be pretty decent (I just hate fragilizing the mana base/development by making it even more susceptible to removal). I really love the Gigapede, so it's easy to add it back in (it diversifies Intuition pile options, and is hard to deal with). That may not be the best use of the slot, however. Another creature-option is the return of Kitchen Finks. Demise or Darkblast is also quite tempting (or perhaps even Pongify for the blue count), however. I think that slot needs some playing around. It would be awesome if there was a cheap blue-ish creature that could do double-duty here... I briefly contemplated Mystic Snake for old time's sake, but I doubt that'll be helpful. I suppose Phyrexian Metamorph might also be feasible.

Against Zoo and burn lavamancer has been my worst nightmare, but it was hard to kill him with pulses .

Lavamancer is indeed their biggest threat, simply because it turns their bolts into proper removal and allows them to attack some of our mana base. Removing or countering it is a priority. I don't know about worst nightmare, however; I've been able to remove it consistently with Decay, or counter it, or impede it with Ooze.

I realize that I must sound bitter and only complaining, but I found the deck real good and want to help improve it. This post is not representative of how I see the deck, only its burn/zoo/slight match up.

For now I'll test the deck with 2 shaman and a darkblast instead of the 3 pulses and see how it goes.

No worries, you don't sound bitter at all. When it's just me, it's hard to see past my own biases, and it's even harder to test all the possibilities. I'm glad you've enjoyed the deck, and are interested in improving it. I think your thoughts are bang-on.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

It's been a while, I know. I've been too busy to take the deck out for a spin these last several months, although I've been doing some testing. I'll be taking it out to a local weekly on Thursday, although it won't quite be the most recent version of the deck since I'm missing DRSes.

I've been putting a fair bit of time into testing DRS in Hierarch's slot. I was worried about the potential lack of immediate mana, and that's sometimes an issue, but not often enough to be of real concern, especially next to DRS's sheer utility. Quick access to life gain and loss, as well as graveyard hate, makes it a very useful card indeed, and I now think the deck needs to run it to stay competitive (not least because everyone else runs it too!). It's not that big a deal to face off against (it just means that more emphasis gets placed on NO-Pro or on decoys), just mildly annoying.

Also, just to confirm changes mentioned earlier (but without an accompanying decklist): Abrupt Decay is in at 4 (too good not to include!), Gigapede is back, Fleshbag Marauder is now officially more useful than Shriekmaw, and Dryad Arbor's also in (at 1) for utility.


My current list, for the few who remain interested:


Lands (19)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor


Creatures (16)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Progenitus
1 Gigapede


Spells (26)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
3 Intuition
3 Natural Order
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

4 Duress
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mana Leak

[Viridia]

It looks pretty good, however, don't you get stuck on mana alot? With only 19 lands and the 4 DRS + only 5 fetchlands to properly feed it yourself, i find it hard to believe you can make good use of Eternal Witness, Intuition and NO.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

It looks pretty good, however, don't you get stuck on mana alot? With only 19 lands and the 4 DRS + only 5 fetchlands to properly feed it yourself, i find it hard to believe you can make good use of Eternal Witness, Intuition and NO.

Apologies for the late response; I thought I'd answered you earlier!

Getting stuck on mana can happen, although it's not as common as you seem to think. Certainly, as I've acknowledged a number of times (including in the primer), dedicated mana denial strategies are one of the deck's most serious challenges. Making good use of the cards you mention is not really a problem (getting to three mana is easy enough). But when Wasteland, Stifle, etc. are in the mix, it can indeed get hard. I'm all for more mana, although I don't see much room to cut (perhaps Daze's slots?). Any suggestions?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'm currently testing replacing the Dazes with a Misty Rainforest, a Phyrexian Metamorph, and The Mimeoplasm (for shits and giggles... it does have some synergy, but I've yet to actually make use of it in testing. Ditto the Metamorph). The trick is not to undermine our ability to cast Force of Will reliably, which has always skirted something of a fine line. Other suggestions for possibilities? I'm thinking at least two of those slots have to be blue, but there are still a number of possibilities available.