For a long time now, I've been searching for the perfect Legacy deck. I had several pretenses I wanted to follow, with no budget assumed.
- Play the best creatures in Legacy
- Play the best spells in Legacy
- Play a fair (not combo), but consistent deck
I originally went to Zoo, and then to Big Zoo. But no matter what I did, I couldn't help but feel like I wasn't playing the best spells. I was satisfied with most of the creatures, as Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, and Knight of the Reliquary are mean. What I wasn't satisfied with, was losing to EOT Intuitions, Show and Tell, Grindstone, and Counterbalance. I wanted a deck that has game against everything, I wanted it all.
If the best deck is just a compilation of the best cards, blue has alot going for it, and it doesn't even need to try hard. Brainstorm + Fetchlands is inherant synergy. Stifle + Wasteland is easy to incorporate. The challenge was incorporating Wild Nacatl, but it's not tough to do. One thinks that you need to play 4 colors with this configuration, but you only need to play 3! Knight of the Reliquary and Swords prove White to be the better splash color, and Enemy Fetchlands make the manabase so smooth. This is my current decklist.
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Energy Flux
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm
2 Submerge
Tropical Island -> Wild Nacatl. A play not yet explored in Legacy. This is because Zoo is such a strong archetype. Wild Nacatl fits neatly into that shell and that deck has some terrific matchups, but it is very dedicated towards dominating the board. What I've begun to see, is more decks based around spells. Consider the cards I dropped from the Zoo deck, Excluding Elspeth and Sylvan Library which are both godlike.
Qasali Pridemage
Grim Lavamancer
Assorted Burn Spells
Path to Exile
They're all great cards, but they're specific to matchups. You might say that I weaken my Aggro/Tribal matchup by not playing these cards, and that's true, but it can be solved by playing great sideboard cards.
Last edited by troopatroop; 02-24-2011 at 02:17 PM.
If you wanted a solid 3/3 for the deck, why not run nimble mongoose and cut down to 3 colors which makes your manabase more stable?
The Dead Will Rise... Rest In Peace
I agree with this. Nimble mongoose does almost as much in terms of power, plus doesn't die to removal.Originally Posted by TheDeadMan
Because by the time that Mongoose is a 3/3, they'll be playing better threats? Nacatl is a 3/3 turn two - whereas it takes (normally) 3+ turns to get Mongoose up there.
Nimble Mongoose takes awhile to get big, so it can't put on pressure early against Combo. Shroud means that STP/PTE get thrown at your Tarmogyfs and Knight of the Reliquary, and that's not great. Wild Nacatl is there to be an early attacker/blocker. Late game he's just as good as Nimble Mongoose.
My manabase is 3 colors for the most part, and the deck doesn't need a mountain in play.
Suggestions are welcome!
Last edited by troopatroop; 02-24-2011 at 02:37 PM.
Shouldent be hards to get large 10 fetch 4 waste 6 cantrips + counters. As far as an opponent throwing removal at goyf/knight cuz they cant target goose is an awful argument, any player with common sence will save removal counters for your real threats and not 3/3s. As far as having a 3 color mana base that is 100% wrong if your trying to get nacatl to full power your fetching up another land that can be targeted by waste/PoP vs just getting a basic.
The Dead Will Rise... Rest In Peace
I personally think you can cut Stifle and go with +4 Noble Hierarch/+4 other cards.
This deck seems more aggressive than the classic UGb UGr Tempo Thresh. And Stifle is a 'tempo' card, but not necessarily so. In your list, you capitalize on tempo generated by Nacatl (what I mean by this is you can push out extra damage that would take Nimble Mongoose another 1-2 turns to push the same damage, i.e. you get about 1-2 turns of tempo from damage by Nacatl), something that UGb and UGr Thresh cannot achieve on turns 1-2. Wild Nacatl is key in your deck and despite not having shroud, the pressure you apply starts as soon as turn 2 whereas Goose starts around turns 3-4 plus.
With 4 Hierarch, you not only win Goyf wars, your cats get bigger, you have more mana open to Pierce/Brainstorm. Assuming you open with Stifle, your deck really wants to drop the Wild Nacatl instead of keeping mana open. UGb/UGr Thresh can avoid playing Goose turn 1 since 1 power ain't too impressive and he can wait until he gets Threshold, whereas your deck wants to apply the pressure asap. I think by cutting Stifle for Hierarch or even Pridemage, you increase your threat density, and don't lose tempo (think of situations where you keep mana open for Stifle and don't hit anything, you actually lose tempo).
You know, I'm really digging this idea though. Wild Nacatl is really quite strong in the format, and this is a good start for a non-Zoo approach. If I were to imagine myself playing such a list, I would probably go with a creature base of 4 Nacatl, 4 Mongoose, 4 Goyf, 3 Knights. Everything else is counter/cantrips.
EDIT: Also that red splash ain't gonna be wasted! you can play 2 REBs in the SB and they're going to be useful against blue decks without wastelands! So there's more to the power of your list than you give credit for!
Whether you choose Mongoose or not, what are your thoughts on Horizon Canopy?
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
4 Nacatl, 4 Mongoose, 4 Tarmogoyf and even 3 knights all in one tempo deck? What kind of tempo cards do you think, will be in the deck? Thats a total of 15 (creature) slots you just spend there.
Tempo decks should spend 8-12 creature's max. Period.
@ troopatroop
U should look at the following decks, they are pretty much well tested. They all have their pro's and con's:
New Horizons
Dark Tempo Threshold (found at Tempo Threshold)
Canadian Threshold (found at Tempo Threshold)
For further questions, feel free to pm me.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
This isn't exactly typical tempo.
U/W tempo and B/W tempo would like a word with you. Just because a deck doesn't play stifle doesn't mean that it doesn't rely on tempo to win games
I guess you don't treat Moss's 4 Hierarch, 4 Pridemage, 4 Goyf, 3 RWM, 3 Knight as a tempo deck then :P
I guess we have a different opinion/terminology on what tempo really means. I don't think tempo is defined by the ratio of creature/permission/removal cards you run in a deck, it's defined by how the selection of cards goes about in establishing tempo gains over an opponent.
If I am getting troopatrop's logic correct when he's designing this Wild Nacatl list, it's focused more towards the tempo-advantage generated by playing Wild Nacatl, and this tempo is generated by extra damage accumulated over other tempo deck variants. If you translate that extra damage in the number of turns required to kill an opponent, then that's another way to measure tempo.
What i mean is if you have a 2/2 beater v.s. a 3/3 beater, all other things held constant, the 3/3 beater generates more tempo overall in the course of the game since it kills faster, holding all other things constant, obviously real life nothing is always constant. But that's my point in addressing why tempo shouldn't be an evaluation on running 8-12 creatures v.s. playing 12+ creatures. A good example is Merfolks, in your definition, Merfolks is not a tempo deck, but I think Merfolks is a great example of an aggro deck that abuses tempo generated from Vial, cheap lords, and high threat density while only requiring a few permission to hit relevant spells.
My point/suggestion was that since his list is trying to utilize the power of Nacatl, it seems awkward to have a contradicting Stifle turn 1 v.s. playing out a Wild Nacatl, or at any point, holding a Stifle when he could be powering out threats. The choice he made to play with Nacatl already implies that he tends on the aggressive side (that's the nature of Nacatl), so reactively holding Stifles don't seem too hot to me. My opinion, would like to here what troop's got to say. Stifle is an awesome card, never dead, but I feel it conflicts with the nature of this deck for reasons I explained above.
Mongoose and Cat + Gofy and Knight? Sounds like some of the best creatures in a tempo deck.
Also, this deck looks like some cross breed of Zoo and New Horizons. Call it New Zoo!
awesome deck, I also tried for some time to build a deck like this. Essentially it was Bant Aggro plus splash red for Nacatl and Lightning Bolt and I called it Blue Zoo. However, I didn't find that the splash was worth the more shaky mana base and my builds ended up having a too low blue cards count for Force of Will.
Maybe dropping the Bolts is a good idea. If I find my old list, I will post it...
Nice deck. I also wanted to play a deck like that. Since Grand Prix Chicago http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...tg/daily/td/29 I was interested in this attempt.
Playing Nacatl in a blue deck is great but you have to find the right attempt for it. And I think, a "tempo" one seems to be pretty interesting. I would like to try that...
Funny enough, who set this on stone? As far as I can tell, the first Threshold decks from legacy had 4 goose, 4 werebear, 4 quirion dryad and usually a few more 3cc+ creatures.
Also, I find "Tempo" to be a pretty loose and bad definition, could as well be called "Aggro-Control" and would be waaay, waaaaaaaay better. Every single deck tryes to exploit tempo.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I wanted to avoid the discussion about certain types of Tempo Threshold decks, but since u can't find the PM button, i'll answer them here.
First, U/W tempo should splash green or black for either Tarmogoyf/Nimble Mongoose or Dark Confidant. Playing suboptimal creatures is pretty bad, to me. Nimble Mongoose > Mother of Runes + random UW tempo creature. I prefer to have it all in one, it costs less space.
Do people actually make good results with the deck? I know there's a lot of posting going arround in the thread, but do people actually show results (even the bad one's?)?
I've never heard of B/W tempo and I would like to keep it that way.
About Mossivo's list: I do not treat that list as a Tempo Threshold/Tempo deck. It's just Bant Agro without Planeswalkers/No Pro and therefore with Wasteland. Creatures + Counters + Removal + land (+4 Wasteland).
I'll set this one on stone, apparently. It's definitely a personal experience and advise to beginning players. Tempo Threshold decks should NEVER play more than 12 creatures. U'll have to cut important (tempo) cards, when playing more than 12 creatures.
The definition of "Tempo" in Tempo Threshold decks, is argued and explained thourougly on other threads. I do not have to explain this here.
About the list presented on top:
4-colour manabase + wastelands in a metagame where Wasteland, the most frequently used card is in Legacy. Good luck.
For further questions/remarks about my post. PM me. Let's keep the discussion going about this deck, not about the definition about tempo or certain tempo decks.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
I agree with this. U/G/r Tempo Thresh played 8 to great success. My 12 are working for me, and KOTR makes it easier to find the winI'm glad you said this! First and foremost, I'm doing almost everything I can vs. Wasteland. I run Stifle/Wasteland myself, and 6 Cantrips. This is more resiliency to LD than traditional Zoo decks. As experienced Legacy players know, the answer to Wasteland is MORE duals, not less. If I were to choose to run basics, it would really put a damper on me trying to cast 3 colors of spells early on in the game, and make the mountains of the deck much harder to incorporate. If you look at the Manabase, there are three lands that are great with Nacatl, but are weak in general.4-colour manabase + wastelands in a metagame where Wasteland, the most frequently used card is in Legacy. Good luck.
1 Plateau: The only relevant color it taps for is White. That said, it pumps Wild Nacatl in a single go, and has made the deck in my eyes. It can only help cast Knight, Goyf, and Swords, but that is reasonable. Tropical Island -> Nacatl Go, Daze their 1 Drop, Fetch for a Plateau/or Volcanic (stifle!), swing has been good.
1 Taiga: This one only provides Green, but at least all your creatures need a green source. This is important, because it gives your deck a different look. You start out on Taiga-> Nacatl, combo is going to think you're not blue. Just as good as a basic Forest.
1 Volcanic Island: This is the best one, because it taps for blue. This isn't even a damper on the deck, and it's often the best mountain to look for.
So what you have, effectively, are the 3 on color BASICS that many people play anyways. Apart from Moon effects, Pop, and Recurring Wasteland, theres no disadvantage to playing Duals over Basics. Those are things to watch out for, but at least you can counter the spells you fear. If they want to Wasteland these lands, thats fine. They're spending a turn on doing that, and these are the lands I need the least! After the 3 "mountains", the Lands get much better. 6 On color duals seems good.
3 Tropical
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
Now we need some serious Fetching Ability. Lets go with 10. lands in ( ) are those that cannot be fetched
3 Windswept heath -> ( Volcanic Island )
3 Flooded Strand -> ( Taiga )
2 Scalding Tarn -> ( Savannah )
1 Wooded Foothills -> (Tundra)
1 Arid Mesa -> ( Tropical Island)
Now that is a serious package. Generally, you can always get the lands you need if you hold 2 fetches. I've been very happy with this configuration.
What enemy colored fetches brought us, is plenty of 4 color possibilities. I try not to think of this deck as 4, because the spells I'm casting lie in Bant, but you could incorporate more red spells if you felt like it (REB was a great suggestion). Horizon Canopy is also a suggestion that I like, and I've mizored with it plenty in Zoo, but I don't think there's room enough here. I'm running 4 Wasteland and 19 Color producers. I also need those three mountains, and cutting fetches would be silly. Love the card, but I can't find room for it here yet.
My main point is, the two "bad" lands in the deck still tap for a good color, and can be shuffled away with Brainstorm/ Ponder. They have about the same value as a Basic land, with the benefit of allowing you to play Wild Nacatl, which is disgusting btw. Lets go to story time shall we?
Yesterday I asked my housemate to help me test my deck. I made no comments about what it was, and he probably assumed I was playing Big Zoo as usual. He was playing U/w/r Countertop Dreadstill. My opener was just what I wanted, Arid Mesa -> Savannah -> Nacatl (with Volcanic Island, Stifle in hand). It resolves, and he procedes to go Fetch -> Go! O_O Obviously I lay my Volcanic down and smack him, to which he says "fetch for a tundra Swords?". I show him the stifle, and he's flabbergasted. He attempts to force, but I daze it. I play Nacatl #2, and eat him up shortly after. His mistake was not fetching on his turn 1, but doesn't that make sense against Zoo? Isn't Wasteland becoming a staple there?
He didn't want to telegraph what deck he was playing before my turn 2, and saying Fetch -> Go against Zoo used to be safe! Most control players know Zoo can run Wasteland, and Wild Nacatl is never seen alongside Stifle. The Rogue factor here is saucey, and it can lead to blowouts if the opponent is not careful. Couple that with a terrific Mid-game and cheap permission spells, this deck has alot going for it.
Last edited by troopatroop; 02-03-2011 at 04:31 PM.
Nimble Mongoose is now a bad creature. UW tempo has more relevant results in the past 18 months or so than Canadian Thresh or any Nimble Mongoose deck as far as I'm aware, especially considering how little it's played.
This deck has promise, as Wild Nacatl is the best 'unconditional' 1-drop in the game. You just do your thing by fetching your lands and hit for 3. I like it a bazillion times better than Nimble Mongoose.
You may not want to use Lightning Bolt/Lightning Helix, but I think Grim Lavamancer is going to need a little bit of attention. What this does, like tempo decks, is fill your graveyard FAST. That means fodder for Grim to convert into damage. I like it even better than KotR in this deck. KotR is a great threat, and usually is the biggest threat on the board...but Grim Lavamancer has some great synergy that should at least be playtested.
Last thought: 23 lands seems a bit much...I realize Wasteland is a 0-cost land destruction spell, not really a land. I still feel 23 is too many. I'd drop down to 21-22, and that may give you the slots you need to playtest Grim Lavamancer, or along the same idea as your no-Bolts argument, Qasali Pridemage to, as troopatroop says, 'be prepared for anything?"
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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