Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Which would people rather see? inspired by another thread. From what I can gather the average deck cost in Legacy is getting to be about $1200-1500, much of that in the manabase, but with even uncommon staples of relatively recent print like Aether Vial and Sensei's Divining Top getting to be $50 a playset. I think this is clearly unsustainable; a format can't thrive healthily with such a large barrier to entry. So what's the ideal solution?

[Kuma]

The ideal solution is for Wizards to reprint format staples. Since that's not likely to happen, the only other way prices fall significantly is if demand falls significantly. And nobody's going to like what that means.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Choice four seems completely unreasonable, as banning the worst offenders due to cost will just result in more worst offenders due to cost (whatever's "hot" at the time) until there aren't any good cards left and Mountain Goat costs $100 and gets banned.

[Tammit67]

I won't even begin to discuss the sampling bias of the questions alone...

Unsustainable? You bet your ass. But these are the times. I would love reprint regardless for what I have picked my cards up for, butit just isn't going to happen.

[Kuma]

Choice four seems completely unreasonable, as banning the worst offenders due to cost will just result in more worst offenders due to cost (whatever's "hot" at the time) until there aren't any good cards left and Mountain Goat costs $100 and gets banned.

Exactly.

I'd be shocked if anyone picked option one, too. I mean, this is The Source for crying out loud. Who here wants to see Legacy become a niche format. I guess we'll find out...

[kiblast]

In my opinion the first and the fourth options are unsustainable. Clearly we don't want Legacy go the way of Vintage, and neither we want banhammer on staples of the format; because even if all original Duals get banned, the best substitutes suddendly would reach a very near price tag, with Ravnicas hitting 50$ each for the most playables, and this would lead to other cards reaching hideous price tag and the problem would still be here.

I think they should start Overextended. A new format, with fairly different staples would shake the market and change prices sensibly. Let's say Wizards announces OverExt and decides that there will be 1 Legacy GP and 3 OverExt Gp's in 2012. Surely the demand for new OE staples will be higher than for Legacy ones, and this in conjunction with the fact that newer cards are more available, should mean lower prices.

Edit: However, I highly dislike the ''Aggressively/ Replacement'' part of option 2.3 Eternal formats can coexist.

[BooleanLobster]

I don't quite understand this belief that high prices will kill Legacy. Yes, some people will get out in order to buy a car/house/yacht, but for every seller there is a buyer.

When you all quit Legacy, you will give your cards to someone else. He will play Legacy, and the size of the format will not change. If you had a substantial collection, it will probably be divvied up among multiple new players, causing the format to grow. Where is the shrinkage here?

The only wrinkle that I see is that if the people with the cards don't sell off for a long time, then by the time they are ready to pass the torch, there might be no younger generation with interest in the format at *any price*. It would be a glut (not just a crash - even in a crash there are buyers).

But that isn't going to happen. MWS and Cockatrice and such will keep interest in the format even among players who don't own a single dual. Tier 1.5 decks that are relatively cheap to build will keep the barrier to entry low enough.

When you finally start thinking about cashing out, there will be a horde of Ichorid, Burn, Mono R Goblins, White Weenie, Pox, and Elves players pestering you to sell to them.

[Pippin]

There's missing a 5th option:

5) Do nothing drastic, let Legacy reach it's plateau since there's no evidence that format is in trouble - quite on the contrary, it's been having constant and healthy growth worldwide despite what the doomsayers are saying

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I actually included the fourth because I thought it was interesting how similar to the Overextended solution it is, really. I mean it's fine to say that there can be multiple eternal formats, but I don't think it's realistic to think that the game can sustain more than one as a competitive format at any level of popularity. Overextended, if it ever happens, would be the death knell for Legacy, at least at the level of play it's enjoyed these past few years. Overextended is, I think, co-extant with Legacy becoming a niche format. If Legacy is to survive and remain popular and well-supported, something has to be done to drag deck costs down, and the only options seem pretty drastic.

I am surprised/pleased at how lopsided the poll is thusfar, but then the questions' phrasing may have been biased.

[CorpT]

Until there is a PTQ season for OverExtended, it won't be a format anyone cares about. And even then, when it is not in season, no one will care about it. It would be even worse than existing Extended which no one cares about. IMO, there just isn't enough time to support 3 constructed formats. It's hard enough supporting two, but adding another format complicates things even more. Personally, I would just cut out the middle format all together and focus on: Limited, Block, Standard and Legacy. Vintage can do it's own thing, but kill off Extended already.

[Kuma]

I don't quite understand this belief that high prices will kill Legacy. Yes, some people will get out in order to buy a car/house/yacht, but for every seller there is a buyer.

When you all quit Legacy, you will give your cards to someone else. He will play Legacy, and the size of the format will not change. If you had a substantial collection, it will probably be divvied up among multiple new players, causing the format to grow. Where is the shrinkage here?

The only wrinkle that I see is that if the people with the cards don't sell off for a long time, then by the time they are ready to pass the torch, there might be no younger generation with interest in the format at *any price*. It would be a glut (not just a crash - even in a crash there are buyers).

But that isn't going to happen. MWS and Cockatrice and such will keep interest in the format even among players who don't own a single dual. Tier 1.5 decks that are relatively cheap to build will keep the barrier to entry low enough.

When you finally start thinking about cashing out, there will be a horde of Ichorid, Burn, Mono R Goblins, White Weenie, Pox, and Elves players pestering you to sell to them.

I think the problem is that as Legacy prices increase, the people who have the staples or who are willing to pay for the staples are spread out more geographically making it difficult to get any kind of a metagame going other than GPs, SCG opens, etc.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't quite understand this belief that high prices will kill Legacy. Yes, some people will get out in order to buy a car/house/yacht, but for every seller there is a buyer.

When you all quit Legacy, you will give your cards to someone else. He will play Legacy, and the size of the format will not change. If you had a substantial collection, it will probably be divvied up among multiple new players, causing the format to grow. Where is the shrinkage here?

The only wrinkle that I see is that if the people with the cards don't sell off for a long time, then by the time they are ready to pass the torch, there might be no younger generation with interest in the format at *any price*. It would be a glut (not just a crash - even in a crash there are buyers).

But that isn't going to happen. MWS and Cockatrice and such will keep interest in the format even among players who don't own a single dual. Tier 1.5 decks that are relatively cheap to build will keep the barrier to entry low enough.

When you finally start thinking about cashing out, there will be a horde of Ichorid, Burn, Mono R Goblins, White Weenie, Pox, and Elves players pestering you to sell to them.

The reality isn't so simple. Scarcity creates a lot of problems. It drives up prices to a point where they have difficulty coming down, because they cease to be merely cards and start representing financial investments for people. If people are neither selling nor buying those cards sit on the sidelines. Other people drop out of playing, perhaps temporarily, and don't sell out because they want to come back later. Other people that might want to get in aren't able to fork out $12,000 for a deck and so move on to other things. Interest in the format stagnates and then support dries up; from that point, the format becomes nearly impossible to ressurect, since no one wants to pay $1200 or even $800 if prices drop a bit to get into a format with no prize support and no community.

There's no perfectly efficient market for Legacy cards- quite the opposite- and "play tier 2 decks" isn't a solution.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There's missing a 5th option:

5) Do nothing drastic, let Legacy reach it's plateau since there's no evidence that format is in trouble - quite on the contrary, it's been having constant and healthy growth worldwide despite what the doomsayers are saying

Until there is a PTQ season for OverExtended, it won't be a format anyone cares about. And even then, when it is not in season, no one will care about it. It would be even worse than existing Extended which no one cares about. IMO, there just isn't enough time to support 3 constructed formats. It's hard enough supporting two, but adding another format complicates things even more. Personally, I would just cut out the middle format all together and focus on: Limited, Block, Standard and Legacy. Vintage can do it's own thing, but kill off Extended already.

I think you're incredibly mistaken, and possibly fettered by a limited view. There's significant resentment towards Legacy in Asia and South America since staples are incredibly difficult to find there. Meanwhile, a huge chunk of pros don't really have memories going back pre-Masques, but would be happy to play in a format that includes nearly all of the cards they've known and loved but sans the $1,000 manabases.

[socialite]

The sky is falling.

Why do you think 1. will happen considering the notably larger Legacy population and the support WoTC and venues like SCG already give Legacy.

Honestly this thread just seems like more of the same fear mongered whining already posted all over this forum and others. :(

There's missing a 5th option:

5) Do nothing drastic, let Legacy reach it's plateau since there's no evidence that format is in trouble - quite on the contrary, it's been having constant and healthy growth worldwide despite what the doomsayers are saying

+1

[ramanujan]

It is a significant assumption you are making to suggest that these are the only options and that inaction will kill the format. There are enough staples for Legacy to be a popular format. There are not enough staples to make Vintage a popular format. This difference is substantial in my opinion. In my opinion, a popular format does not go the way of Vintage. Vintage, in the early 2000s, was not popular because I believe that playing with proxies is not playing Vintage. I am sure that Wizards would agree to the extent that playing with proxies is not playing Vintage.

Wizards has, and will continue to, add to our format in the form of new cards. They have an ability that people here often ignore, and that is to add new different cards to the Legacy pool. Just a few years ago, there was 2 fewer Merfolk Lords, several fewer anti graveyard cards, no trap cards to kill combo, no tinkering robots, no mana producers to rival birds, no Iona, no off color fetch lands, no nacatl, no Jace TMS, no Emrakul, no mox opal, one less goblin lord... Think for a second what has changed in the last few years and look onward to the future. There is already a free spell spoiled in the next set that will cause the balance to shift away from Combo.

Certain decks, which represent a small population of viable decks, are limited by the card population. There are ten times as many viable decks that don't depend on small print run cards. The Legacy community has become overrun by loud whiners that feel entitled to something for nothing. It seems like every time a card price spikes or a deck that isn't merfolk or goblins takes a share, the sky is falling. Ban the card, reprint stuff I want, this situation is unfair, I deserve better, if you don't fix the situation (Ban stuff or reprint stuff) the format will die....

One thing is certain. You have been heard, it is just that Wizards disagrees with you. Deal with it. It is a game. I know that talking loudly and with some persuasion probably got you what you wanted when you were a child. Grow up.

[kiblast]

I think you're incredibly mistaken, and possibly fettered by a limited view. There's significant resentment towards Legacy in Asia and South America since staples are incredibly difficult to find there. Meanwhile, a huge chunk of pros don't really have memories going back pre-Masques, but would be happy to play in a format that includes nearly all of the cards they've known and loved but sans the $1,000 manabases.

As a young player (played since Invasion block through Kamigawa Block, then stopped and restarted with Shadowmoor) I'd love to try OE. I would not reject Legacy but would be nice to switch periodically from one format to other. Also OE could give opportunities to people to try out more decks without worrying about Duals, Fow, or Legends cards but only about Fetchlands,Confidants, Vials and Goyfs, for example. Also I'd love the deckbuilding challenge for a new eternal format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It is a significant assumption you are making to suggest that these are the only options and that inaction will kill the format. There are enough staples for Legacy to be a popular format. There are not enough staples to make Vintage a popular format. This difference is substantial in my opinion. In my opinion, a popular format does not go the way of Vintage. Vintage, in the early 2000s, was not popular because I believe that playing with proxies is not playing Vintage. I am sure that Wizards would agree to the extent that playing with proxies is not playing Vintage.

What?

No, there aren't enough staples to sustain Legacy's current level of popularity. That's the whole reason that card prices are shooting up so dramatically, with no sign yet of stabilizing. This is even leaving aside cards like Candelabra and Tabernacle; duals, Wastelands and Force are not in enough supply to meet the format's demands.

Wizards has, and will continue to, add to our format in the form of new cards. They have an ability that people here often ignore, and that is to add new different cards to the Legacy pool. Just a few years ago, there was 2 fewer Merfolk Lords, several fewer anti graveyard cards, no trap cards to kill combo, no tinkering robots, no mana producers to rival birds, no Iona, no off color fetch lands, no nacatl, no Jace TMS, no Emrakul, no mox opal, one less goblin lord... Think for a second what has changed in the last few years and look onward to the future. There is already a free spell spoiled in the next set that will cause the balance to shift away from Combo.

I think you're delusional if you think that a free Extirpate sans Split Second is going to break combo, but you also seem to think Mindbreak Trap did the same, so I don't know what to tell you.

Regardless, the addition of new cards hasn't altered the drastic impact to the price of Legacy staples; duals, fetchlands, Wasteland, Force, Goyf, Vials, Tops have all been climbing dramatically, let alone less widely played cards. Wasteland is nearly a hundred dollars now. Prices are out of control, beyond any trace of doubt.

Certain decks, which represent a small population of viable decks, are limited by the card population. There are ten times as many viable decks that don't depend on small print run cards. The Legacy community has become overrun by loud whiners that feel entitled to something for nothing. It seems like every time a card price spikes or a deck that isn't merfolk or goblins takes a share, the sky is falling. Ban the card, reprint stuff I want, this situation is unfair, I deserve better, if you don't fix the situation (Ban stuff or reprint stuff) the format will die....

One thing is certain. You have been heard, it is just that Wizards disagrees with you. Deal with it. It is a game. I know that talking loudly and with some persuasion probably got you what you wanted when you were a child. Grow up.

Ironically, resorting to calling every critique you dislike "whining" is exactly what a child does. This signifies that you are either not interested in or not capable of a serious discussion, and your opinions can safely be dismissed as without merit.

I don't need anything in this format. My brother and I own enough duals and other staples to either build whatever we need or trade on par, or borrow from other members of Team Unicorn. Accessibility is not an issue to me. Format health is. I'm sorry that you don't have the foresight to show the same regard.

The sky is falling.

Why do you think 1. will happen considering the notably larger Legacy population and the support WoTC and venues like SCG already give Legacy.

Honestly this thread just seems like more of the same fear mongered whining already posted all over this forum and others. :(




+1

Because support encourages demand which spikes prices which drops demand which discourages support.

And see above.

Not every criticism of what exists is necessarily valid or sufficient, but dismissing any criticism as "whining" signifies that you are simply not interested in or capable of an adult conversation.

[Jason]

I only voted for the break the reserved list because it is the option closest to what I think should be done. As far as reserved list cards, they will not be reprinted; I've accepted that. I don't really care because cheaper (albeit sometimes worse) alternatives exist. Instead of shelling out for duals, players can play mono-colored decks, more basic lands or play some number of Ravnica shock lands. These players can acquire duals over time; players owning duals quit all the time and sell off cards. If you can't afford The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale, don't play Lands.dec. If you can't afford Moat, play Humility (although it is on the reserved list, it is significantly cheaper; plus you only need one or two). Candelabra of Tawnos is a niche card and not necessarily a Legacy staple. LEDs are still relatively easy to get your hands on, but the price tag is annoying (it's also a combo-only card). The problem lies not with the reserved list cards but with the Force of Wills, Wastelands, Aether Vials, Crucible of Worlds and even standard cards which are legacy-playable like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic.

[Sims]

Jack where's the option to just write off Legacy and go back to playing the format how it was before September 2004?

edit for content: Plus despite the fact that I know it won't happen, I voted break the reserve list.

[socialite]

Not every criticism of what exists is necessarily valid or sufficient, but dismissing any criticism as "whining" signifies that you are simply not interested in or capable of an adult conversation.

The sky is falling.

Why do you think 1. will happen considering the notably larger Legacy population and the support WoTC and venues like SCG already give Legacy.
Honestly this thread just seems like more of the same fear mongered whining already posted all over this forum and others. :(




+1

I apologize if you felt I was off base calling the constant complaints about staples and their impact on Legacy over hyped whining. Could you explain to me why it is something other than that?

All I see is baseless opinion and speculation about what will happen to an already ridiculously popular Eternal format.