Allow Legacy to go the way of Vintage, becoming a niche format with little support.
Aggressively implement and promote Overextended as a replacement.
Break the reserve list and reprint promo versions of many of the worst offenders, price-wise.
Take a hatchet to the format, banning some of the worst offenders, price tag wise.
Sig'ed.Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Let's get back on topic now, gents.
Point being, would you enter the format now if you owned zero Legacy cards with your current financial state? What if you were on a $100 a month Magic budget (which is significantly higher than the majority of players out there)?
-Matt
I can say, as someone with actually a smaller budget than that, that it has not deterred me in the slightest to pursue viable Legacy decks. I started with Zoo, eventually traded most of it built up towards Meandeck MUD, then I built Dredge, and now I have Zoo again and Goblins. I have had bad versions of a few combo decks and for the most part have just avoided playing blue. It can be done on the cheap. Yes I would prefer to have my staples again, ie I sold them to pay rent years ago, but I can still have fun with what I have. So I can say yes, at $100/month you can enter into the format bit by bit and become competitive pretty quickly. At that rate you can actually get the vast majority of a deck build in about 2-3 months, picking up toys like Knights of the Reliquary, Progenitus, LED's, all the toys that you could want for whatever deck you want to build, and when you have the shell, start saving bit by bit for duals, and/or if you know someone, borrow them. As long as your local meta is full of decent people, and I would like to think that we are generally decent people, that we could find some duals to loan people until they can get their own.
That being said, I don't like that I have to do things on the cheap. But I also recognize that I will never see the prices I did in 2004-2005. The suggestions we have all posted would probably fix a lot of the formats problems, and possibly create other problems. Also if you are building a combo deck like ANT/TES/Belcher don't hesitate to use the Ravnica Duals, more often than not, there is no difference in how games go because bolting yourself against a goblin deck you kill that turn is not of note.
Well, you could start out with Burn or LEDlessDredge and then slowly achieve the pool for something else.
To be honest, i personally would not want to get in this format if i didn't own any cards. It is way too expensive and somewhat unfair because it IS going to be a matter of money to be competetive, and not "some" money, but a month's salery to get a deck from the scratch.
This scares off new players, without any doubt.
But hey, Standard ain't cheap either, extended somewhat is not interesting (from my and many others point of view) and well Vintage.....is dead.
Magic has become a monster with ppl speculating and holding cards back for profit. It still is fun, but spending 400 bucks so your pool "can morph" to another deck... kinda sux.
I would. I'd not build Team America or Jace Landeed as my first deck for sure, but I would start collecting cards for cheaper decks. Then with time and ebay, and tournaments prizes, I'd slowly move to the pricey staples. 3 weeks ago I sold my Ledless Dredge for 160 Eur shipped, and in the last 50ppl tournament I attended there were 2 Dredge in top8. You know what I mean.
(I think that this topic has been discussed to the point that it's more interesting to invent better duals. / sarcasm.)
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
If you're coming into the format now and you're on a $100/month allowance, your options are like Burn, Dredge, and bad aggro. That wouldn't be able to hold my interest for long. I guess there's Affinity, but there are no investment you'd make in that deck that you could transfer to something else competitive.
Seems like the most miserable time to start playing T1.5 since like 2002 (and definitely the worst since the T1/1.5 split in 2004).
Probably. Well, IDK. If I only had 100$ a month then well there isn't anyway I could break into Legacy. If I had significantly more money? Yeah, I'd start with some cheap Aggro deck.
On $100 a month, I'd still do it the same way.
I'd build LEDless Dredge. Then I'd upgrade from there.
1.) LEDless Dredge
2.) LED Dredge
3.) TES
4.) ANT
5.) DDFT
6.) Rev614
7.) Other masterbatory toys
Basically it's slowly adding more money to the same deck (obviously the leap from LED Dredge to TES took a while).
I'm assuming most youngster's budgets aren't more than $100 a month. I know my Magic budget up until a few years ago was under this amount, so I figured it a decent figure, especially in these economic times.
I think I'd most definitely try to get into the format, but I definitely wouldn't be playing Rock or anything requiring many duals, that's for damn sure.
-Matt
Me too. There are exceptions (High Tide, Goblins, Dredge), but the foundation of the format is based around Revised duals (and earlier editions' duals to a lesser extent).
And building a format around a set of rares from a set with a modest print run 17 years ago is not a recipe for a healthy, long-term format. You know what I mean?
I would draft.
In my case, I suck at Legacy even though I have everything (Matt can attest to that), and I can't afford T2. I could also play EDH.
You know, I think a restricted list would help Legacy. Throw duals on there. Hasn't Wizards said they were a mistake? Then fucking fix it. Don't ban them, restrict them. Yay, availability problems solved!
For a newb looking to enter the game on $100/month, I don't honestly know if they can play Legacy OR Standard. If you are totally new to the game, the quickest way to assemble a reasonable deck if you don't have a generous benefactor giving you money or cards is to acquire multiple pre-made decks, or to buy singles.
I guess you could try luck-sacking on a box of Magic cards, but that seems like you're pretty much relegated to Standard at that point. Same with preconstructed decks, unless you guys are all shopping at amazing stores that have a wealth of precons from, like, Masques Block. And that would *still* manage to only give you access to Legacy staples that were printed after like 6th Edition, meaning no good duals, no Forces or StPs*.
I mean, if you're the patient type who's also playing with the intent of Using Good Cards to try and win once in a while, and the cost of a viable deck is $600 - $1500, then you're at best only going to be able to play the way you want to after six months, minimally. But what's that guy doing then over that first six months? If he's learning the game somehow then outside resources are in play - people are lending the new kid some decks or whatever cards she's missing in order to build her deck - and so that becomes a question that can't be tangibly answered, except to say that the community is still largely responsible for recruiting into itself.
It just seems like when you weigh the cost of getting into the game against the cost of certain cards, the availability of those cards to a new player, the trade off of paying a couple hundred bucks for a playset of Legacy cards versus dropping that same couple hundred on a box of what's relevant in Standard and some pre-cons, and then remembering that the majority of players sort of phase out of the game after a little under 2 years of 'active' play, then yeah I find it hard to accept that any new kid would come into Legacy entirely under his or her own power. There's got to be an assist there.
*Okay derf there was a Coldsnap precon that had StP in it. I just remembered. I think the list of Legacy staples that came out before such-and-such a date is pretty well understood though. StP was a bad example. Force of Will notsomuch
Last edited by TsumiBand; 04-17-2011 at 07:43 PM. Reason: because sometimes i forget things and it make-a me sound sooooo stupid
This is a really interesting question, and one that directly applies to me now.
I started Magic just as Antiquities was released, and played until I sold my collection about two years ago. It paid off a lot of student loans, although I'm kicking myself for not waiting 24 more months to unload it.
Recently, I've started to miss playing Magic with real cards (I play on MWS quite a bit, now.) A few weeks ago, I decided to pick up Legacy again, but I'm not too interested in investing heavily in the game. I gave myself a small budget to work with, and have been having a lot of fun trying to come up with viable, affordable decks (4eak has a really good thread going in the budget forum). I've settled on building Dredge, and I'm looking forward to seeing how far I can take it before (and if) I get bored with piloting it.
My goal isn't exactly to build up another collection, but to have fun competitively at a low(ish) cost. If I collect some winnings and cards to explore other archetypes, that's just going to be icing on the cake.
-Mike
This thread inspired me to make a new budget deck thread here. After running and constructing lists for the budget tournament we had here on the Source, I had accumulated a lot of budget decklists. In addition, I tend to buy budget versions of a deck first and then work my way up to complete non-budget versions. I've got a good amount of testing and interest in the subject, so I hope it might be useful to others.
peace,
4eak
I more or less did this; had a few old cards but had given most away when I quit years and years earlier. $100/month... I'd sooner invest that into Legacy staples than Standard staples! I'd probably play Fire & Lightning Burn.dec and spend a lot of time on MWS with more interesting things.
Yes I would.
The problem is not the cost of the format the. The cost of the format is merely a consequence of the scarcity of cards which will cause that at a certain point no one will be able to enter the format, no matter how much money they can spend (ok ok I'm exaggerating but you get the point...).
Take out a loan for $2000 at 5% apr. Now you can buy any deck in the format. If you pay $100 per month, you'll pay off the loan in 21 months.
Actually it would take just over 19 months with that interest rate, but that is beside the point. The fact that you can take a $2000 loan out, and pay it off over the course of nearly 2 years to pay for 1-2 decks worth of cards, is a bad sign for a barrier of entry. If you are talking about a collectible card game and taking out a loan, there is a problem (and if I were that banker, I would laugh at you for asking). The barrier is getting too high, and soon enough it will be a real problem. I am hoping some of our ideas that would prevent a reformation of the format, ie banning the high cost cards, will not happen.
I'm pretty sure Malchar was just kidding and only suggested taking out a loan to point out the absurdity of entering into competitive Legacy.
I might be missing something because I'm not familiar with financial terms, but I would like to know how I can borrow $2000 and pay that off in 19 payments of $100 over the next 19 months.
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