Miracle Control

[hyp3r1on]

Thanks for your explanation. I was thinking maybe cutting down ponders can also help hedge against chalice of the void, since there are so many running around these days, one less dead card in your hand. I have been experimenting between cadei's list but somehow 20 lands seemed too little or that i am not the miracles master he is. I feel that the correct number is 21 but the card slots are really tight. What would you advise cutting?

I would not run any Miracles list with 20 lands without 4 Ponders - period. One of the most important functions of Ponder is to ensure you hit land drops. By playing less than 4 Ponders and 20 Lands there are situations where you will get punished. Even with 4 Ponders, I wouldn't be playing 20 lands in concert with mana intensive cards like Council's Judgment/Jace/Entreat but that's just my preference. I would probably look at shaving a Counterspell first. Counterspell is a card that is very good against random decks, solid versus combo and midrange like Shardless but is pretty underwhelming against very fast decks like Delver, Infect etc.

I piloted my 3-Ponder-Hybrid list to 6-3-left round 10 to go home early at EW NA 2016. I never found myself wanting the 4th Ponder in any of the rounds I lost. I do think at 2 is too few, but 3 or 4 really comes down to the pilot's preference with what direction they want to take their build in.

I agree with this. At the same time though, I also think it’s extremely difficult to evaluate cantrips for lists. You have to put in hundreds of hours into testing to get a good determination of how many copies of something like Ponder is optimal for the list you’re playing.

[twndomn]

I would probably look at shaving a Counterspell first. Counterspell is a card that is very good against random decks, solid versus combo and midrange like Shardless but is pretty underwhelming against very fast decks like Delver, Infect etc.

Nah~, not Counterspell. If anything, should be a FoW, assuming you run 4. Counterspell at least allows you to 1-for-1, FoW is rather underwhelming against fair decks. In most builds, you're not favored against unfair decks game 1 anyway. The only reason people prefer to run the 4th FoW is because turn 1 Vial/Chalice, yet Chalice decks are on the decline. I'm definitely not saying that because Lossett runs 3 FoW.

If Chalice decks continue to decline, we can probably cut either EE or CJ.

For reference, I run 20 lands + Karakas + 3 Ponders. It's very hard to argue against results when many successful pilots don't run Karakas. Some say it's difficult to deal with DnT when Thalia is protected, but Karakas allows you to "timewalk" DnT when he doesn't have Vial on 2. Now Leovold becomes trendy, it's definitely possible for you to float a CMC 3 and bounce Leovold via Karakas (If BUG has decay, he would have cast it on CB already), not to mention it's another out against trendy br reanimator even under Chancellor (as long as it's not turn 1 sire of insanity).

[icedagger]

Hello guys,

I'm fairly new to the deck, as it's just a couple months since I picked it up. I'd like to ask you some questions, as you're all more experienced than me and for sure you can help me improve and understand more the deck. I'm sorry in advance if this is nothing new to you or it's something you find trivial.


- First of all I'd like to ask you why nobody doesn't play anymore the Daze version that let Claudio Bonanni lift the trophy in Lille. It seems to me that Daze could be pretty good right now, as the meta develops around highly costed spells, such as True Name Nemesis, Leovold, Show and Tell, Aluren, Sneak Attack. Also it seems to have and edge in the mirror. What's the reason behind it's disappearence from decklists?

- Second, what do you think about BBD's Louisville list? I'm asking that because the list seems really different from the ones I can lurk in this thread. No Entreat, no Council, full set of Ponder, just 2 Jaces and a total of 3 Mentors. Do you think it's a solid choice? What are its benefits compared to a stock list with EtA, Council, Predict, 0-2 Mentors?

Thanks a lot and sorry if you got botherd or bored reading my post

Daze doesn't really synergize with most Miracles game plans; It sets you back one land drop and becomes next to useless in the late game; which is where a lot of games involving Miracles tend to end up.

Bonanni was doubling down on Mentor and was running a midrange game plan centered around it. If you want to apply this strategy then Daze works okay, but the meta has since evolved and people tend to be prepared for Mentor these days so going all in might not be as effective as before.

BBD's list is fairly standard 4 Ponder with Mentors. It aims for consistency and the ability to close games out faster than Entreat builds. As for lack of CJ, most players use EE instead as it's a much more flexible removal spell that doesn't require double white and is easier to cast when you're running lower land counts.

People have different reasons for running or not running the predict in their lists and there's no real consensus about it. There's some discussion on the subject some pages back.

Hope that helps!

[CutthroatCasual]

I would not run any Miracles list with 20 lands without 4 Ponders - period. One of the most important functions of Ponder is to ensure you hit land drops. By playing less than 4 Ponders and 20 Lands there are situations where you will get punished. Even with 4 Ponders, I wouldn't be playing 20 lands in concert with mana intensive cards like Council's Judgment/Jace/Entreat but that's just my preference. I would probably look at shaving a Counterspell first. Counterspell is a card that is very good against random decks, solid versus combo and midrange like Shardless but is pretty underwhelming against very fast decks like Delver, Infect etc.



I agree with this. At the same time though, I also think it’s extremely difficult to evaluate cantrips for lists. You have to put in hundreds of hours into testing to get a good determination of how many copies of something like Ponder is optimal for the list you’re playing.

Very true. I'm running 21 lands (though Karakas is really half land half spell, but a land nonetheless) so perhaps 3 really is the optimal number for 21.

[TheArchitect]

Hello guys,

I'm fairly new to the deck, as it's just a couple months since I picked it up. I'd like to ask you some questions, as you're all more experienced than me and for sure you can help me improve and understand more the deck. I'm sorry in advance if this is nothing new to you or it's something you find trivial.


- First of all I'd like to ask you why nobody doesn't play anymore the Daze version that let Claudio Bonanni lift the trophy in Lille. It seems to me that Daze could be pretty good right now, as the meta develops around highly costed spells, such as True Name Nemesis, Leovold, Show and Tell, Aluren, Sneak Attack. Also it seems to have and edge in the mirror. What's the reason behind it's disappearence from decklists?

- Second, what do you think about BBD's Louisville list? I'm asking that because the list seems really different from the ones I can lurk in this thread. No Entreat, no Council, full set of Ponder, just 2 Jaces and a total of 3 Mentors. Do you think it's a solid choice? What are its benefits compared to a stock list with EtA, Council, Predict, 0-2 Mentors?

Thanks a lot and sorry if you got botherd or bored reading my post

Daze is not as good as it sounds on paper. Even in games where people are casting big expensive spells, unless they are trying to curve out perfectly, they can (on incidentally do) leave a mana up. Also the rest of miracles operates on having lots of lands so setting yourself back a land drop can be a big deal some times. Daze would be good in a meta where card advantage didnt matter much and format was decided in the first 1-2 turns of the game.

BBD's list is close to what I have been playing since mentor was printed. In my experience, 3 mentor works better than any number of entreats. The ONLY matchup I miss having entreat is against Shardless, but the difference isn't advantage of entreat isn't that big, and the shardless matchup is still favored with this list.

Here's my list if your interested:
20 Land:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Predict
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 From the Ashes/Counterspell/Spell Snare/Kozilek's return/Staticaster
1 Mountain
4 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear // Tear

[Ghiwo]

Thanks a lot icedagger and TheArchitect for your replies and help.

Given your feedback regarding Daze, what are nowadays the cards and way to build the deck that let you have an edge in the mirror, aside from the clunky Legend version?
I like a lot BBD's list and even more Wilson Hunter's list. EE, maxing out on Mentors, playing a low land count, all seem to me great ways to be ahead when you're facing the mirror. Am I wrong?

How would you build your deck to face the current metagame full of BUG, Death and Taxes, BR Reanimator and mirrors?

As I said, I love Wilson Hunter's list, it's really similar to the one I was playing with Dazes, but I wonder how he deals with all these Sultai decks without any Jace

[CutthroatCasual]

I was thinking about Quasim0ff's and lordofthepit's Ponder shuffle problems. If MODO is as garbage a program as it is, then since all RNGs have to follow some sort of formula/code, perhaps the code for the shuffle off Ponder is somehow different for the code from a shuffle off a fetch or other search effect? That might explain why you're getting the same card drawn after a shuffle? Though I don't know if that explains why it doesn't always happen.

[TheArchitect]

TGiven your feedback regarding Daze, what are nowadays the cards and way to build the deck that let you have an edge in the mirror, aside from the clunky Legend version?
I like a lot BBD's list and even more Wilson Hunter's list. EE, maxing out on Mentors, playing a low land count, all seem to me great ways to be ahead when you're facing the mirror. Am I wrong?

To get an edge in the mirror, learning to play the matchup better is the biggest thing but also max out on instant speed permission (Blast, counterspell, flusterstorm, etc). Running a 4th snapcaster in the board is also not a bad idea.

Mentor is terrible in game 1 in the mirror, but makes game 2-3 awkward since mentor forces your opponent to leave in terminus or make mentor a must-counter.

How would you build your deck to face the current metagame full of BUG, Death and Taxes, BR Reanimator and mirrors?

The list above is what I would play currently. BBD and Wilson I am sure took the meta into account as well.

[haxorz]

I was thinking about Quasim0ff's and lordofthepit's Ponder shuffle problems. If MODO is as garbage a program as it is, then since all RNGs have to follow some sort of formula/code, perhaps the code for the shuffle off Ponder is somehow different for the code from a shuffle off a fetch or other search effect? That might explain why you're getting the same card drawn after a shuffle?

that's a possible coding bug (albeit a stupid one lol), yes.

Though I don't know if that explains why it doesn't always happen.

lordofthepit's _two_ game sample size is laughably small. if people seriously think Ponder is bugged on mtgo, then someone should do an actual experiment.

-----------

suppose the top three cards of your library are C1, C2, C3.

let A be the event that the card you draw after a shuffle is one of {C1, C2, C3}
let B be the event that the card you draw after a Ponder shuffle is one of {C1, C2, C3}

it ought to be the case that P(A) = P(B). that is to say: Ponder is not bugged in the way people are complaining; shuffling with Ponder has the same effect as shuffling any other way.

we'd like to estimate the mtgo-world values of P(A) and P(B) and compare them.

[Quasim0ff]

I recently experienced putting two mentors on top with brainstorm, spinning top and seeing something as well as the two mentors.

I shuffled and saw the same three cards (one of them was a one off!) shuffle again and see the exact same three cards. The chances are insanely low, statistically speaking.

[quadich]

So i just joined the ranks of miracle players and have read through some of this threat. I am looking to run something like this:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21465&iddeck=164628

Although i will be running 2 mentors 1 entreat main and play ensnaring bridge instead of moat postboard.
What do you guys think about this list?:)

[CutthroatCasual]

I recently experienced putting two mentors on top with brainstorm, spinning top and seeing something as well as the two mentors.

I shuffled and saw the same three cards (one of them was a one off!) shuffle again and see the exact same three cards. The chances are insanely low, statistically speaking.

WotC must be trying out a new nerf to get people to stop playing Miracles since they very well can't ban anything from it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

WotC must be trying out a new nerf to get people to stop playing Miracles since they very well can't ban anything from it.

Unlikely, as these cards are used in many decks, not just the miracles...Conspiracy Theorist much?

[CutthroatCasual]

Unlikely, as these cards are used in many decks, not just the miracles...Conspiracy Theorist much?

One way to test is to see if other people running these cards in other decks are having the same issue? It could be tied to the deck hash or whatever.

[Whitefaces]

Since you guys have mentioned it, the Ponders I'm casting in Delver decks online seem to be giving back the top card quite often too. But not every time so it could just be confirmation bias. I've also started ordering the cards, even if I'll shuffle, with the one I'll want most at the top.

[twndomn]

Mentor is terrible in game 1 in the mirror, but makes game 2-3 awkward since mentor forces your opponent to leave in terminus or make mentor a must-counter.

The list above is what I would play currently. BBD and Wilson I am sure took the meta into account as well.

Or..., because you hate DnT so much, you happen to have Sulfur Elemental in your SB... :)

[Poron]

Sulfur Elemental is huge in the mirror as well.

I loved the transformational sideboard of the 2nd placed in GP Chiba.

Mentor Miracle MD
Sulfur Miracle SB for Mirror and DnT

You then seal Entreat with EE for 0 always online

[jwl3gg]

I'm thinking of making Miracles, can it get by with only 2 Tundras? I currently have 2 Tundras and 2 Volcs.

[ThatDeleuzeGuy]

I'm thinking of making Miracles, can it get by with only 2 Tundras? I currently have 2 Tundras and 2 Volcs.

Yes you can pretty easily get by with those numbers.

[phg22]

More than get by, many of us run 2 and 2 by choice