Miracle Control

[hyp3r1on]

^ I think this is a pretty solid and informative summary of ETA/Mentor

I'll add though. I personally prefer the control deck building philosophy of "excel at a single thing with a focused wincon", which is why I've never liked Entreat/Mentor split lists. I think it's better to either commit to Angels or commit to Mentor maindeck. I think it's better for Mentor lists to have a sb Entreat or Angels lists to have sb Mentors for appropriate matchups if you want to go that route as opposed to doing the maindeck split.

[Artemis90]

Thank you for your comments, CutthroatCasual and hyp3r1on!

@CutthroatCasual: I got your point abaout removal/permission and I think it matches with my personal experiences with mentor.
But are you sure Mentor over Entreat really improves the MUs against (non-BUG) Delver and Elves significantly?

EDIT: For Delver I referred to the first part of your answer, later you say in the second part both wincons are even.

@hyp3r1on: I'm a passionate draw-and-go control player so my recent negative view on Mentor might be a bit biased. Since I want to play more predicts and beat my opponents by perfect card-filtering and having an answer for every threat – being in control of the game – I should probably focus on this and go back to only Entreat.

Concerning additional Mentors in the SB: are SB cards to play more agressive really needed for Miracles at all? I mean many people play Cliques also for this reason, Cadeis last list had Mentors main and Cliques in the SB. AnziD on the other hand doesnt run any.
But even against the decks where Mentor shines I am not sure if i want him over my other SB cards. I would have to cut my haymakers in From the Ashes and KReturn to make room for 2 Mentors and thats maybe not worth it.

[twndomn]

Against tempo (aka Delver), I think either one works fine, though at that point it probably depends more on your playstyle and whether you're a kind of player that likes to play aggressively (Mentor) or one that likes to sit back and bide your time (ETA).

Again, that's all a rough guideline that I use, and really it boils down to how you want to play the deck: as tap-out control (Mentor) or draw-go control (ETA).

No, that's not exactly correct. Against tempo deck, more often than not, it comes down to blanking Wasteland and Stifle. In SB games, you also have to fight Null Rod/Winter Orb. Hence if you're able to overcome All That, then yes, you can win with anything, Entreat/Mentor or even just a Clique would do. However, if you're behind mid-game, or if you Need to bring your board to parity, then in such case, Mentor is better by miles. This is because you don't have the cantrip or the resource to fight the cantrip to put Entreat back. Even if you want to Entreat, often you're doing so under pressure, without CB, in such case, due to the lack of resources/lands, it's hard to Entreat for 2 or even 1, while dodging Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm.

Going forward, if Leovold remains popular, it would be harder for Miracles to chain cantrips together to generate Monk tokens.

[ThatDeleuzeGuy]

So given the recent rise of BUG decks playing multiple TNN and Leovolds, along with Sneak and Show making a resurgence what do people think about maindecking some number of red blast effects and playing more out of the board? I know it's completely dead against a fair number of decks so you probably wouldn't want to main more than 1-2 but you can still just cast a pyroblast for Mentor triggers if necessary. It'd also help you out a fair bit game one in the mirror as that isn't an effect any people play around game 1.

[laywer]

What is your general game plan against these monored stompy decks? The new chandra is very hard to deal with not to say trinisphere, chalice, etc.

Needing help against dredge too, specially manaless. What is the best target for surgical extraction?

Thanks in advance

[Sibelius]

EW Top8 competitor Anders has started a Miracles article series, read the first one here

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...cles-part-one/

Sib

[JBMage]

Hi everyone,

This weekend occurred a Legacy tournament called "Titanium Series - Presented by TJ Collectibels".
It was streamed on twitch and commentated by Zack Hall and Rich Shay.
https://www.mtgtitanium.com/
https://www.twitch.tv/tjcollectibles/videos/all

It was a pleasure to watch and commentating was great, I really recommend!

The final was Miracles VS BUG Delver (Stifle version), Miracles lost :(
According to the comments on stream, the Miracles player Christopher Stitson is the well known Mzfroste on MTGO.
He won game 1 and for game 2 and 3, if I am not mistaken, he made the following plan:
- 1 Volcanic Island
- 4 Force of Will
- 1 Jace
- 2 Entreat the angels

+ 2 Wear/ Tear
+ 1 Mountain
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Monastery Mentor

I usually like to take out CB and board in some Blasts against stifle and possible Jace.
If i am playing Mountain in the sideboard i also increase my land count to fight mana denial, but i don't cut volcanic..
What do you guys think of his decision?

[Mzfroste]

Hi everyone,

This weekend occurred a Legacy tournament called "Titanium Series - Presented by TJ Collectibels".
It was streamed on twitch and commentated by Zack Hall and Rich Shay.
https://www.mtgtitanium.com/
https://www.twitch.tv/tjcollectibles/videos/all

It was a pleasure to watch and commentating was great, I really recommend!

The final was Miracles VS BUG Delver (Stifle version), Miracles lost :(
According to the comments on stream, the Miracles player Christopher Stitson is the well known Mzfroste on MTGO.
He won game 1 and for game 2 and 3, if I am not mistaken, he made the following plan:
- 1 Volcanic Island
- 4 Force of Will
- 1 Jace
- 2 Entreat the angels

+ 2 Wear/ Tear
+ 1 Mountain
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Monastery Mentor

I usually like to take out CB and board in some Blasts against stifle and possible Jace.
If i am playing Mountain in the sideboard i also increase my land count to fight mana denial, but i don't cut volcanic..
What do you guys think of his decision?

I cut the 2nd Wear // Tear from my board a few weeks ago, I brough in the 4th Snapcaster. Also since Stifle Bug doesn't run big blue threats like Jace and TNN, I don't bring in Blasts, so the only read thing mana I need is for Wear and EE, so I've been considering not bothering with the mountain, but for last night I did. While I agree that developing and protecting your mana is the number 1 priority playing against stifle decks, I don't think its reason enough to bring in an extra land. Plus, there is only so much you can take out, and since stifle makes ETA bad, I need to keep in something like Jace for finishing power, which I normally would not vs Delver and would be what I'd cut to make room for the extra land.

As for the Counterbalances, this build is geared to blank decay, but even with the threat of Decay, both Mentor and Counterbalance, if they stick, are absudley good against Delver decks, especially the stifle ones, which have much lower curves than the Hymn BUG and 4 color lists. So, I consider it worthwhile keeping in decay targets and doing be best to overload, though granted this list has a harder time doing so. Also, since ETA is bad against stifle, I once against need to make sure I have enough wincons, and in my list, Mentor is the best against this matchup, since it dodges the spell specific countermagic like pierce and flusterstorm, as well as dramatically recovering from a behind board state, unlike Jace which needs supporting removal. Basically, risk rewards tells me that Mentor is worth it, and keeping CB's in supports Mentor by splitting the focus of their Decays, as well as just being very good against his curve.

[twndomn]

The final was Miracles VS BUG Delver (Stifle version), Miracles lost :(
According to the comments on stream, the Miracles player Christopher Stitson is the well known Mzfroste on MTGO.
He won game 1 and for game 2 and 3, if I am not mistaken, he made the following plan:
- 1 Volcanic Island
- 4 Force of Will
- 1 Jace
- 2 Entreat the angels

+ 2 Wear/ Tear
+ 1 Mountain
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Monastery Mentor

I usually like to take out CB and board in some Blasts against stifle and possible Jace.
If i am playing Mountain in the sideboard i also increase my land count to fight mana denial, but i don't cut volcanic..
What do you guys think of his decision?

First, I don't understand cutting Volc. You are playing against a Wasteland + Stifle deck, Decreasing land count is Not helping the cause. Second, Cutting some amount of CB is definitely correct. This article has already mentioned the SB choices and the reasoning behind them: http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/...-a-new-miracle Even though time has progressed, most if the content is still true.

[Quasim0ff]

First, I don't understand cutting Volc. You are playing against a Wasteland + Stifle deck, Decreasing land count is Not helping the cause. Second, Cutting some amount of CB is definitely correct. This article has already mentioned the SB choices and the reasoning behind them: http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/...-a-new-miracle Even though time has progressed, most if the content is still true.

That's not entirely correct. That is one school of thought, but not necessarily the best one, these days. Blanking decay, when playing against a stifle list where miracles card is already at an all time low, is not really good. Usually, against big bug delver (malimujo etc), blanking decay is fine, because when you decide to go for entreat, it doesn't strand in your hand but rather flood the board.

That article is also 1.5 years old, if that's the miracle doctrine you are following 100% then you need to update on your views....

mzfroste has the most 5-0's on mtgo currently, sitting at 14 trophies. That's almost a 5-0 every 3rd day.

[JBMage]

That's not entirely correct. That is one school of thought, but not necessarily the best one, these days. Blanking decay, when playing against a stifle list where miracles card is already at an all time low, is not really good. Usually, against big bug delver (malimujo etc), blanking decay is fine, because when you decide to go for entreat, it doesn't strand in your hand but rather flood the board.

That article is also 1.5 years old, if that's the miracle doctrine you are following 100% then you need to update on your views....

mzfroste has the most 5-0's on mtgo currently, sitting at 14 trophies. That's almost a 5-0 every 3rd day.

I understand the points you and Christopher are stating but i think it is a matter of priorities..
The games we lose against BUG stifle are some weird sequences involving mana denial or when we cannot resolve our removal spells.
This version of BUG relies heavily on Force of Will to protect their gameplan so i prefer to have Blasts in hand instead of Counterbalance at this point.

People are fighting us with Winter Orb these days, tapping out for double UU also does not feel correct.
I find myself ignoring Winter Orb and playing max efficient spells like them, but with a better manabase.

[Quasim0ff]

I understand the points you and Christopher are stating but i think it is a matter of priorities..
The games we lose against BUG stifle are some weird sequences involving mana denial or when we cannot resolve our removal spells.
This version of BUG relies heavily on Force of Will to protect their gameplan so i prefer to have Blasts in hand instead of Counterbalance at this point.

People are fighting us with Winter Orb these days, tapping out for double UU also does not feel correct.
I find myself ignoring Winter Orb and playing max efficient spells like them, but with a better manabase.

I don't leave in counterbalances, but when he swaps entreats for mentors (which I think is incorrect; Another issue for another day), making his abrupt decay worse is a fine plan.

I want infinite blasts if opponent is on stifle. i think blast, at that point, is much better than flusterstorm.

[Mzfroste]

The problem with blasts against stifle is since you want to protect yourself from wasteland, you're trying to fetch a mountain early. Hard to develop 3 colors instead of 2 colors. And since I want mentors, counterbalances are more important. Similar problem with eta, if I don't have room for blasts, then it's that much harder to protect them fromm stifles. There seems to be a healthy respect for decay, but less for stifle. But if they don't have decay, mentor wins you the game earlier than eta, plus isn't exposed to pierce or fluster. And you really do need to keep enough proactive elements in post board, so you don't put yourself in position to win the game without locking to game down completley, which can be difficult against the deck with cards like Bob, stifle, and winterorb to name a few.

[Gros]

i have a little dilemma about the last part of the discussion, using this decklist:
// NIracles 1

// 60 Mazzo
// 4 Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// 5 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

// 3 Enchantment
3 Counterbalance

// 16 Instant
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Predict

// 20 Land
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 10 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique

// 12 Instant
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return

vs. team america (tourach ) how would you board?

i thought -4 FoWs -3 Counterbalance
+1 Engineered explosives +2 Flusterstorm +2 Vendilion +2 Wear /Tear

or is it better -4 FoWs -3 Counterbalance -1 Counterspell
+1 Engineered explosives +2 Flusterstorm +2 Vendilion +1 Wear /Tear +2 Reb

and if the opponent have stifles instead of tourach is this correct?
-4 FoWs -3 Counterbalance -1 Counterspell
+1 Engineered explosives +3 Flusterstorm +2 Vendilion +2 Wear /Tear
here i am more afraid of some hoser like winter orb seeing that stifles make them play a lower curve, so our counterspell here lost a lot of value

[Mzfroste]

i have a little dilemma about the last part of the discussion, using this decklist:
// NIracles 1

// 60 Mazzo
// 4 Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// 5 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

// 3 Enchantment
3 Counterbalance

// 16 Instant
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Predict

// 20 Land
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 10 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique

// 12 Instant
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return

vs. team america (tourach ) how would you board?

i thought -4 FoWs -3 Counterbalance
+1 Engineered explosives +2 Flusterstorm +2 Vendilion +2 Wear /Tear

or is it better -4 FoWs -3 Counterbalance -1 Counterspell
+1 Engineered explosives +2 Flusterstorm +2 Vendilion +1 Wear /Tear +2 Reb

and if the opponent have stifles instead of tourach is this correct?
-4 FoWs -3 Counterbalance -1 Counterspell
+1 Engineered explosives +3 Flusterstorm +2 Vendilion +2 Wear /Tear
here i am more afraid of some hoser like winter orb seeing that stifles make them play a lower curve, so our counterspell here lost a lot of value

Against tourach you want blasts since along with delver and fow that both builds have, they have Jace out of the board, and sometimes tn main/side.

[Gros]

Against tourach you want blasts since along with delver and fow that both builds have, they have Jace out of the board, and sometimes tn main/side.

so would you cut counterspell to make room for rebs as in the second boarding plan?

[JBMage]

i have a little dilemma about the last part of the discussion, using this decklist:
// NIracles 1

// 60 Mazzo
// 4 Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// 5 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

// 3 Enchantment
3 Counterbalance

// 16 Instant
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Predict

// 20 Land
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 10 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique

// 12 Instant
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return

vs. team america (tourach ) how would you board?

i thought -4 FoWs -3 Counterbalance
+1 Engineered explosives +2 Flusterstorm +2 Vendilion +2 Wear /Tear

or is it better -4 FoWs -3 Counterbalance -1 Counterspell
+1 Engineered explosives +2 Flusterstorm +2 Vendilion +1 Wear /Tear +2 Reb

and if the opponent have stifles instead of tourach is this correct?
-4 FoWs -3 Counterbalance -1 Counterspell
+1 Engineered explosives +3 Flusterstorm +2 Vendilion +2 Wear /Tear
here i am more afraid of some hoser like winter orb seeing that stifles make them play a lower curve, so our counterspell here lost a lot of value

This is how i would approach the matchup with your list.

BUG (Hymn)
-4 Force of will
-3 Counterbalance

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Kozilek's Return
+1 Wear // Tear
+1 Engineered Explosives

BUG (Stifle)
-4 Force of will
-3 Counterbalance
-1 Counterspell
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptur
-1 Entreat the Angels

+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Kozilek's Return
+1 Wear Tear
+3 Flusterstorm
+3 Blasts

[Whitefaces]

I'm surprised you guys cut FoW vs Stifle Delver decks, I would keep them in as they're playing a very different gameplan to Hymn builds.

[Gros]

I'm surprised you guys cut FoW vs Stifle Delver decks, I would keep them in as they're playing a very different gameplan to Hymn builds.

Would you please explain a little deeper your reasoning? i'm honestly interested.
Btw do you guys usually board in Flusterstorm vs. grixis pyromancer decks without stifles?
i thought if they don't have them i would board in 2Vendilion, 2 rebs, 1 Wear/Tear 1 EE
and out 4 FoWs 1 Jace 1 Counterspell
is it right to keep in CJ in your opinion?

[CutthroatCasual]

Would you please explain a little deeper your reasoning? i'm honestly interested.
Btw do you guys usually board in Flusterstorm vs. grixis pyromancer decks without stifles?
i thought if they don't have them i would board in 2Vendilion, 2 rebs, 1 Wear/Tear 1 EE
and out 4 FoWs 1 Jace 1 Counterspell
is it right to keep in CJ in your opinion?

Against a more aggro build I'd take it out. Against a more midrange build where I've seen (or expect) TNN, I might leave it in if I can't find more things to bring in.